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#15124677
So, since @Pants-of-dog has apparently chosen not to respond to my critique of his site’s judgment of the Washington Times, back to the actual subject of the thread with another county that has chosen to betray its residents by placing them at risk in the name of keeping undocumented alien criminals in this country:

ICE blasts Prince William County for new sanctuary policy

The head of ICE blasted Prince William County in Virginia on Monday over a new policy that bans the jail from reporting people arrested on misdemeanor charges to federal deportation officers.

Under the new policy, even if someone has serious felonies on their record, as long as their new arrest wasn’t for a felony they won’t be flagged, according to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

That includes people arrested for misdemeanor drunk driving.

The Prince William-Manassas Regional Jail will still report people arrested for felonies and will hold them for up to two hours beyond their normal release, giving ICE a chance to come pick them up. That is more than some other jurisdictions will do.

But ICE said the refusal to cooperate on those facing misdemeanor charges is short-sighted.

“This deterioration of the relationship with Prince William County will certainly have public safety consequences for the people of the county,” said Matthew Munroe, who runs deportation operations for the Washington field office. “We’ve seen that the most likely victims of these offenses are those in the immigrant community.”

The change, approved by the jail board last week, is the latest deterioration in the relationship between ICE and Prince William, whose immigrant community is growing in size and political power.

The county used to participate in the 287(g) program, deploying its own sheriff’s deputies to run names and begin the deportation process for deportable migrants booked into the jail.

That agreement expired earlier this summer, and the jail board declined to renew it despite pleading from ICE.

ICE said under the new sanctuary policy Prince William will end up releasing people like Jose Guillermo Castillo Garcia, an illegal immigrant who’s already been deported but snuck back in. He was arrested last year for driving without a license and misdemeanor DUI, but who had a long rap sheet, including assault and battery of a first responder and a felony conviction for DUI, which means it was at least a third offense.
#15124694
@Doug64

What do you think of the collusion between the Trump administration and breitbart to create racial hatred against Latinos? Do you think their plans to target Rubio because of his ethnicity were about clarifying the threat that “the Left” represents?

Please repeat whatever off topic criticism you have about CNN or about the website used to check its bias.
#15124712
Pants-of-dog wrote:@Doug64

What do you think of the collusion between the Trump administration and breitbart to create racial hatred against Latinos? Do you think their plans to target Rubio because of his ethnicity were about clarifying the threat that “the Left” represents?

I prefer not to deal in tin-hat conspiracy theories.

Please repeat whatever off topic criticism you have about CNN or about the website used to check its bias.

I didn’t have any criticisms of CNN, I pointed out that your preferred site for ranking media outlets gave them the same rank as the Washington Times and had them even more biased to the Left than they say the Washington Times is to the Right. If you have a problem with either, take them up with the creators of the website.
#15124718
Doug64 wrote:I prefer not to deal in tin-hat conspiracy theories.


https://www.newsweek.com/stephen-miller ... on-1473955

    White House senior adviser Stephen Miller merged his dual-pronged obsession with immigrants and crime through "off-the-record observation[s]" he provided to Breitbart News about violence against Americans from illegal immigrants.

    The fourth installment of the Southern Poverty Law Center's Hatewatch series on Miller's far-right rantings hones in on his leaked Breitbart emails which paint immigration as an "us or them" racial battle. Former Breitbart editor Katie McHugh's latest batch of leaked emails while working at her former employer show how Miller directly influenced the conservative website's anti-immigration narrative and painted all immigrants as criminals.

    Miller accused the Obama administration of casually releasing "convicted criminal aliens" from U.S. custody and amped up fears about migrants that have directed his own policy pushes as President Donald Trump's in-house immigration czar.

    "It has never been easier in American history for illegal aliens to commit crimes of violence against Americans," Miller claimed in a January 5, 2016 email to Breitbart, touting one of his many "off-the-record" observations.

    December 2015 emails between Miller and Breitbart's McHugh promote crimes committed by Latin American and Muslim immigrants, including a New Jersey arrest of an undocumented immigrant suspected of sexually abusing a child. Miller's observations targeting illegal immigrants have been debunked across bipartisan publications and through government reports.

    "There are SO many of these stories out there," McHugh told Miller. "[Each one more disturbing than the next," Miller replied.


    A legal settlement between the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and the Department of Homeland Security allowing immigrants with mental illnesses to reopen cases prompted Miller to remark, "Illegals with mental diseases, psychopathy, coming back to USA ... Don't believe your lying eyes and those liars in law enforcement."

    Emails between McHugh, Miller and then-Breitbart chief editor Steve Bannon show them expressing shock at "the number of foreign-born terrorists in the United States on visas we handed out ... The U.S. has been taking in Muslim refugees for decades, without any kind of pause or assimilation effort, creating huge pockets of radicalization."

    Miller, a then-aide to Alabama Republican Senator Jeff Sessions made it clear in 2015 and later on Trump's campaign in 2016 that his anti-immigrant narrative could also be used to attack other Republicans, including Senator Marco Rubio, who was Trump's rival in the GOP presidential primary. As was noted in the last SPLC Hatewatch installment, Miller and Breitbart both blasted Rubio as a "liar" and dishonestly painted him as a supporter of "open borders."

    .....
    [/list]

It is a fact that emails have been sent between the parties involved. It is a fact that they talked about how these people are criminals, and it is a fact (that you have amply demonstrated) that Breitbart then put out stories like this.

It is also a fact that both attacked Rubio for being supposedly an open borders advocate.

How is this a tin foil hat conspiracy?

I didn’t have any criticisms of CNN, I pointed out that your preferred site for ranking media outlets gave them the same rank as the Washington Times and had them even more biased to the Left than they say the Washington Times is to the Right. If you have a problem with either, take them up with the creators of the website.


How does this affect my argument in any way? You seem to agree that CNN is biased in the manner described on the website, so this seems to say that you think the website is a good judge of news sources.
#15124726
late wrote:Not allowing people that have lived here for years to become citizens creates an underclass.

An underclass is a breeding ground for disease and crime.

Undocumented aliens aren’t an underclass, they are lawbreakers that should be deported when caught. We certainly shouldn’t reward that lawbreaking with citizenship, at least for those that chose to break the law. Now you can argue that the huge numbers of undocumented aliens constitute a de facto underclass, but that is an argument for why our immigration laws need to be vigorously enforced—to prevent that from happening—not an argument that those that chose to violate our laws should be rewarded with citizenship just because they were successful lawbreakers for years. “We’ve discovered that you successfully embezzled from our company for years, so we’re going to give you a promotion!”
#15124731
Undocumented immigrants have broken no criminal law. Embezzlement, for example is an actual crime. Being in the country illegally is not. The comparison is not that good.
#15124739
Doug64 wrote:


We certainly shouldn’t reward that lawbreaking with citizenship, at least for those that chose to break the law.

Now you can argue that the huge numbers of undocumented aliens constitute a de facto underclass, but that is an argument for why our immigration laws need to be vigorously enforced—to prevent that from happening—not an argument that those that chose to violate our laws should be rewarded with citizenship just because they were successful lawbreakers for years. “We’ve discovered that you successfully embezzled from our company for years, so we’re going to give you a promotion!”



You've got no way to deport them. That's Right wing BS.

They're an underclass.

We need rational immigration policy.

They are here because we wanted them. We can change immigration policy, we can't throw millions out of the country. That's crazy talk.
#15124767
@Doug64 Will you call on your own state of Utah to expand e-verify to include all employers, not just those with more than 15 employees?

And then. Tell me specifically what you will do with so-called anchor children. According to the US Constitution they are citizens as much and you and I are but their parents are not. They cannot be deported because they are citizens. What are we to do with the 7 year old little boy whose parents must be deported according to your zero tolerance rules.

Be specific


You repudiate the Libertarian party as their platform calls for open borders.

Will you join me in asking for strict workplace enforcement with the already enacted strict sanctions of employers who hire illegals?

Do you agree that if a number of employers go to jail or lose their federal EIN and therefor are put out of business, there will be no jobs here to lure in or support illegal aliens.
#15124772
late wrote:Not allowing people that have lived here for years to become citizens creates an underclass.

An underclass is a breeding ground for disease and crime.


I agree. They either need to be removed to their country of origin, or given legal status (green card).

I wouldn't reward them with citizenship. I think they should be permanently ineligible as their punishment.
#15124775
Drlee wrote:Will you join me in asking for strict workplace enforcement with the already enacted strict sanctions of employers who hire illegals?

Do you agree that if a number of employers go to jail or lose their federal EIN and therefor are put out of business, there will be no jobs here to lure in or support illegal aliens.

The employers breaking the law is just as big of a problem. It provides incentive to stay illegally.

The employers should be punished. Adults who entered or stayed illegally should be deported back to country of origin, and any children born in US as citizens can stay with relatives or leave with parents, that's a personal family decision. It's not the fault of the US government that the parents of these children chose to break the law and put their family and children in this tough situation, so it's up to these parents to solve this problem as they think best for their family.

You can make exceptions for people like Dreamers, and adults in US illegally who, in the government's estimation, add good value to the US economy and have otherwise followed the law and therefore can stay. But that should be up to the government & the American people to decide who should stay or go, based on what is best for US interests.
#15124778
You can make exceptions for people like Dreamers, and adults in US illegally who, in the government's estimation, add good value to the US economy and have otherwise followed the law and therefore can stay. But that should be up to the government & the American people to decide who should stay or go, based on what is best for US interests.


What you are talking about is amnesty. You are aware of that? By the way, I agree with you. And I will go further and tell you that if they did start arresting the 5% employers and closing businesses employing a few hundred Americans in every city and town there would not be a politician left standing.

I often ask myself. "Is this the hill republicans want to die on?" But the clear answer is yes. This is, after all, not about jobs. We had some 15 million illegals in the country at the time our unemployment rate was lowest. That is not it. It is about profit.

There is a number at which an American citizen will pick lettuce in the Imperial Valley 115 degree heat. It is a very big number. There is a number at which an American will clean hotel rooms. It is vastly more than $7.65 an hour.

And it is about racism/xenophobia. Republicans know, as the rest of us ought to acknowledge, that the USA is a very racist country. Very. And it is very definition of xenophobia. Only Japan has us beat in the free world.

So Trump did nothing about illegal immigration other than put up some very expensive and completely ineffective pieces of fence. Then, rather than take effective steps toward workplace enforcement he simply pointed to stuff like sanctuary cities and blamed them instead. And his deeply stupid followers, just as he predicted, got in line behind him. That is life in the shallow end of the pool. We can talk about how cowardly his programs are later.
#15124792
Drlee wrote:What you are talking about is amnesty. You are aware of that? By the way, I agree with you.

There's a practical problem with trying to arrest 10 million people hiding across America. They'll all die before the feds could catch most of them. Secure the southern border, i'd go as far as requiring a GPS bracelet/anklet to any Latin American legally entering the US temporarily on a visa so they can't run and hide to overstay. Then deal with this problem of the undocumented that are already here.

And I will go further and tell you that if they did start arresting the 5% employers and closing businesses employing a few hundred Americans in every city and town there would not be a politician left standing.

Many on the left cry racism and humanitarian outrage any time a politician tries to enforce immigration laws. Donald Trump is one of the few that will risk not being PC and just do it anyways and face the outrage. These days it takes a narcissist a-hole racist like Trump to dare to enforce immigration law, so the people felt they needed to elect the narcissist a-hole to deal with the issue among others most politicians didn't dare touch. If typical politicians had more courage they'd do more about the undocumented issue and someone like Trump wouldn't have been necessary in the minds of voters. Neo-Nazis didn't create Trump, the GOP and Democrat establishment did. 46.1% of US voters aren't neo-nazis. Swing stakes like Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylavia etc went red in 2016 because they have been decimated by manufacturing jobs (autos, steel etc) leaving the US and Trump promised to bring them back, and to his credit he tried. He slapped tons of steel tariffs on other countries. I'm not saying i'd vote for Trump in 2020, because I wouldn't, i'm saying reasons why he's appealing to a lot of non-urban barely-educated Americans.

And it is about racism/xenophobia. Republicans know, as the rest of us ought to acknowledge, that the USA is a very racist country. Very. And it is very definition of xenophobia. Only Japan has us beat in the free world.

There's a racist element to it for many yes. There is also an element of people from other countries taking advantage of the US and Americans fed up with it. It's probably a combo of both for many.

So Trump did nothing about illegal immigration other than put up some very expensive and completely ineffective pieces of fence. Then, rather than take effective steps toward workplace enforcement he simply pointed to stuff like sanctuary cities and blamed them instead.

Sanctuary cities are a problem though. These mayors are in direct defiance of federal law, and they choose to harbor criminals, which is against the law. I don't see why these mayors shouldn't be arrested by the FBI and charged, but of course that would never happen.
#15124797
Unthinking Majority wrote:
I agree.

They either need to be removed to their country of origin, or given legal status (green card).

I wouldn't reward them with citizenship. I think they should be permanently ineligible as their punishment.



No, you don't. At all.

That cure would be worse than the disease.

Which leaves us with an underclass, a breeding ground for disease and crime...
#15124804
late wrote:No, you don't. At all.

That cure would be worse than the disease.

Which leaves us with an underclass, a breeding ground for disease and crime...

How would giving them permanent residency create an underclass? They'd have all the same rights and privileges as any other American besides mainly the ability to vote and acquire a US passport.

How would this be worse than "the disease". They're already an underclass.
#15124830
Unthinking Majority wrote:
How would giving them permanent residency create an underclass? They'd have all the same rights and privileges as any other American besides mainly the ability to vote and acquire a US passport.

How would this be worse than "the disease". They're already an underclass.



Sorry, didn't notice that.

That would actually work.
#15124835
Drlee wrote:According to the US Constitution they are citizens as much and you and I are but their parents are not.

The US Constitution does not say this. The Supreme Court does.

Drlee wrote:What are we to do with the 7 year old little boy whose parents must be deported according to your zero tolerance rules.

Deport him with his parents until he reaches majority age; or, place him in foster care until he reaches majority age.

Unthinking Majority wrote:The employers should be punished.

This is what Trump is doing, specifically to drive down the unemployment rate among African-Americans. It worked.

Drlee wrote:And I will go further and tell you that if they did start arresting the 5% employers and closing businesses employing a few hundred Americans in every city and town there would not be a politician left standing.

So now you understand why we want that done.

Drlee wrote:I often ask myself. "Is this the hill republicans want to die on?" But the clear answer is yes.

Yes.

Drlee wrote:There is a number at which an American citizen will pick lettuce in the Imperial Valley 115 degree heat. It is a very big number. There is a number at which an American will clean hotel rooms. It is vastly more than $7.65 an hour.

Cut welfare benefits for those who don't work. It turns things around quickly. You don't see this in societies like the UAE. There is no begging, no homeless, no wastrels lingering on welfare. There are plenty of poor people, but they work six days a week, 10 hours a day.

Drlee wrote:So Trump did nothing about illegal immigration other than put up some very expensive and completely ineffective pieces of fence.

No. He's raided chicken processing plants, etc.--forcing illegal aliens out of work, and forcing employers to hire black Americans instead. Illegal aliens aren't a union threat.

Unthinking Majority wrote:There's a practical problem with trying to arrest 10 million people hiding across America.

It's not a practical problem. It's an economic issue. Rents don't get paid, groceries don't get sold. Landlords like illegal aliens better than blacks, because illegal aliens pay on time, pay in cash, and don't play the unlawful detainer game in the courts. Blacks know how to game the system. However, by throwing illegal aliens out of work and forcing people to hire the blacks that were otherwise unemployed, Trump drove down the unemployment rate for blacks. A lot of them really like him now.

Unthinking Majority wrote:Secure the southern border, i'd go as far as requiring a GPS bracelet/anklet to any Latin American legally entering the US temporarily on a visa so they can't run and hide to overstay.

Plenty of politicians are obviously in the human trafficking, sex trafficking, and drug trafficking businesses as well. So their opposition isn't based on some "moral" position. They are all about exploitation.

Unthinking Majority wrote:Many on the left cry racism and humanitarian outrage any time a politician tries to enforce immigration laws.

Most of these laws were passed by old-line leftists with a labor union disposition. It tells you a lot about politicians these days. They are anti-worker on both sides of the aisle.

Unthinking Majority wrote:Neo-Nazis didn't create Trump, the GOP and Democrat establishment did. 46.1% of US voters aren't neo-nazis. Swing stakes like Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylavia etc went red in 2016 because they have been decimated by manufacturing jobs (autos, steel etc) leaving the US and Trump promised to bring them back, and to his credit he tried. He slapped tons of steel tariffs on other countries. I'm not saying i'd vote for Trump in 2020, because I wouldn't, i'm saying reasons why he's appealing to a lot of non-urban barely-educated Americans.

Illegal aliens also take away a lot of sole prop type jobs like gardener, maid, etc., which really pisses off working class Americans. That's why the illegal immigration issue is a big deal for them.

Unthinking Majority wrote:Sanctuary cities are a problem though. These mayors are in direct defiance of federal law, and they choose to harbor criminals, which is against the law. I don't see why these mayors shouldn't be arrested by the FBI and charged, but of course that would never happen.

They need to be defunded.
#15124881
They need to be defunded.


If you were a conservative like me you would oppose all federal money to cities in the first place. The feds have no business funding crap like police departments and day care centers. If the states want more money for schools, they can tax people and give it to them.

Ironic how few conservatives there are anymore.
#15128125
And the latest action by ICE involving Sanctuary Cities:

ICE sweeps through D.C., other sanctuary cities; more than 170 arrests
ICE deportation officers fanned out across six sanctuary city regions in recent weeks, officials announced Friday, nabbed more than 170 illegal immigrants who’d been released by local police in defiance of deportation requests.

Acting Homeland Security Secretary Chad F. Wolf warned other sanctuaries that they’ll see a heightened U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement presence in their communities, too, as long as they refuse full cooperation on turning over people from their prisons and jails.

“These are not everyday people. They are hardened criminals,” Mr. Wolf said in a press conference from Philadelphia, one of the regions targeted.

The other regions were Denver, New York, Seattle, Baltimore and Washington, D.C.

Among those was a 39-year-old from El Salvador who was arrested in Montgomery County, Maryland, on charges of sexually abusing a minor, but was released late last month in defiance of an ICE detainer request.

Also nabbed was a 28-year-old Mexican man, caught by ICE in Charlottesville, Virginia, after being released by the regional jail. The man had been deported once before and had been arrested for forgery, identity theft and driving without a license, but the jail ignored an ICE detainer request.

Overall, Homeland Security, said 84% of the new arrests had criminal convictions or pending charges, and each had been released by local authorities in defiance of an ICE request to be notified beforehand.

The arrests were part of Operation Rise, which targets sanctuaries. The operation began late last month in Los Angeles, with 128 people nabbed.

Philadelphia went to court early in the Trump administration to challenge demands for closer cooperation after the Justice Department attempted to withhold federal grant money from sanctuary cities.

Acting ICE Director Tony H. Pham said the government is abiding by that order, but that just because the federal government can’t compel cooperation, the locals should still volunteer it.

“What we’re talking about here today is mutual agreed cooperation, which that court order does not prohibit,” Mr. Pham said.

ICE has begun posting billboards in Pennsylvania to highlight some targets who have been released by sanctuaries by local communities. The goal, Mr. Wolf said, is to let residents know criminals have been released because of those sanctuary policies.

The number of sanctuary cities has soared under President Trump, with communities saying they want to protect illegal immigrants from deportation events.

The communities argue that cooperate with ICE, and the presence of ICE, scares some communities, and hinders their willingness to report crimes to local authorities.

The data is unclear on whether that is true.

But Mr. Wolf said if sanctuaries are trying to protect illegal immigrants, it’s backfiring.

If communities cooperated, it would mean turning over illegal immigrants with criminal records from prisons and jails.

Without that, ICE must send teams of officers out into communities — and they can then arrest other illegal immigrants they encounter while going after their targets.

“If communities and jurisdictions would simply cooperate with us, you would likely not see ICE in your communities,” Mr. Wolf said.

Note that the Sanctuary Cities' refusal to cooperate with ICE actually increases the odds of noncriminal undocumented aliens being picked up, since ICE might pick them up in the sweeps when they wouldn't if the criminals were turned over to them from the jails.
#15128130
So the rationale for breaking up families and arresting peaceful and hardworking undocumented migrants is because you need to punish sanctuary cities for not enforcing arbitrary immigration laws that hinder relationships within the city.

How is this supposed to be the more moral position?
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