Education - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in the USA and Canada.

Moderator: PoFo North America Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please.
By late
#15052030
Education has more of a problem with politics than most issues. Start with BS, while at least half of what is said these days is utter crap, in education it's somewhere north of 90%. Some days I think it's a lot more than 90%.

My mom was a math teacher. Back in the 70s, she started reading books about education reform. I'd come home from college, and wound up reading them. I used to read a lot.

That started me thinking about education reform. Close to 20 years later, I figured it out.

Americans hate education reform.

That requires some explanation, but it's outside the scope of this post.

As an intellectual exercise, reform is easy.

Step 1) National Pre-K

Step 2) Ban competitive sports (no country with good secondary education throws away education money on recreation, we throw away a lot! Those countries have tons of sports clubs, just not on the public dime).

Step 3) National standards and funding. Successful systems have national schools or national standards. Take your pick.

Step 4) Eliminate teaching degrees, require competence, and require mentoring. IOW, you want to teach math, you get a math degree.

Step 5) Mandate the basics. This is national standards again, we need to require high schools to have science labs, civics classes, etc.

Step 6) Making it all work... fixing broken education systems means helping them. That means money. A lot of communities are not going to be able to afford labs and skilled teachers without help.

Education is crucial to economic competition. Unfortunately not much is going to change. Empires short change domestic needs to fund their military ambitions. Britain still does. I think we will be like them, short changing their country chasing a past that is long gone.

No, ours isn't gone yet, it's just going.
By Politics_Observer
#15052037
@late

Thank you for your post and it's an important topic. Education is very important to me and it concerns me that many people do not get the education they need to be good productive citizens. One of the things I noticed here recently since gaining access to a good private university that is properly accredited and federally funded (though not state funded, I am here in the United States) is the quality of the education is much better than what you get at state funded public schools. I see that where I attended a lot of wealthy people send their children to the school. The reason I have access to this particular private university is because I am eligible for generous veterans benefits that pay the full cost for me. Without the veterans benefits, I would be just another poor working class regular joe. I did get a degree at a public university before attending a private university so I can see the difference between the education I am getting now, versus the education I got then.

At public state funded universities, they pack like a 100 or 200 students in one classroom. At the private university I attend I have 5 students in one class and I think 4 students in the other class. At public university, they teach a lot of theory, whereas at the private university they teach you the real skills you are going to need to succeed in the business world. Bear mind, both universities have the same accreditation. At private university, they work you very very hard and the academics are more stressful in my opinion. In addition, the teachers at the private universities have doctorate degrees but are also the top people in their fields too. So they have some very in depth knowledge.

Where I attend, the National Security Agency comes to my school to recruit hackers and cyber-security specialists (I take classes online). In my local area, the local military base goes to a respected private school to recruit their engineers. None of these agencies seems to really recruit very hard for public school graduates though they do get some. I can see they much rather hire the private school graduates from these properly accredited and very expensive private schools. I do think the education is better and they do a better job of preparing students for the work force.

But this really enlightened me. It taught me that wealthy families have advantages when it comes to access to better quality education that most people don't have. They earn their wealth and they earn their degrees and it's very tough to get degrees from these institutions they send their kids to. But, most people have to work while in school. If you attend these properly accredited and high quality private schools and try to work, you will fail out.

However, wealthy children don't have to work while in school so they can focus fully on their studies and graduate with a tough, top notch education that has properly prepared them for the real world in business. I don't have to work either simply because of my veterans benefits. But most people don't get these kinds of veterans benefits so they don't have access and don't have the money and time to attend such good private universities.

It has been a truly eye opening experience to me to see the quality of education that children from wealthy families receive versus the quality of education that less privileged members of society receive in public schools. Private universities are much more expensive given they don't get state dollars (though many do get federal funding because the federal government might recruit engineers or computer specialists from their universities who have the skills they need) which is why the cost to attend those universities is the same for both in state students and out of state students. However, that also means, most likely (though I can't be for sure on this) that state has less say in how they teach their students. So they have the freedom they need to have to teach the students what they really need to succeed in the real world. Public universities cost less because they are state funded if you live in the same state. But because these public universities receive state dollars, the state probably can have more say in how they teach their students.

So, if you are not wealthy, you have little choice but to attend the public university because the tuition is cheaper due to state funding. You have to be wealthy or come from a wealthy family or have generous veterans benefits to attend some of these good private universities that give you a competitive edge in the business world. Think about it, Yale is a private university, Standford a private university, Harvard a private university. The educations that wealthy families receive do give them a competitive edge over others in my opinion. So, your average working joe has to work even harder to overcome the disadvantages they are faced with.

Edit:

Their are scholarships available at private universities for less privileged members of society can take advantage of. But you have to be an exceptional student too in order to get accepted and to receive these scholarships. I just wanted to add that in there. A lot of the scholarship money comes from private donors to the private university.
By late
#15052039
Politics_Observer wrote:
@late

Thank you for your post and it's an important topic. Education is very important to me and it concerns me that many people do not get the education they need to be good productive citizens. One of the things I noticed here recently since gaining access to a good private university that is properly accredited and federally funded (though not state funded, I am here in the United States) is the quality of the education is much better than what you get at state funded public schools.



Thanks, nice post.

There are some really good state universities. But, overall, you have a good point.

I went to a private high school, what I saw in my local public high school was depressing.
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15052041
The reason our educational system needs reform is because libs got a hold of it and fucked it up.

When I was in high school, if I failed a test (which happened from time to time, sad to say) that fact was reflected in my grade. I spent three of four summers in summer school because I failed a class during the regular school year. I had to attend summer school to graduate; I was handed an empty diploma folder when I crossed the stage at our graduation ceremony. I received my diploma in the mail, after I completed summer school following my senior year.

These days, my old high school still has summer school, but it's voluntary. If a junior fails a class during the regular school year, he might not eventually end up at Harvard, but he will get advanced to the 12th grade. They're more concerned with a student feeling good about him or herself than they are about that student actually learning.

Hell, even extracurricular activities are impacted. There was a story of a kid whose parents allowed him to try out for one sports team, so he tried out for the baseball team. The kid wasn't very good and didn't make the cut. The kid went home and cried. The parents called the Principal. The Principal called the school's Athletic Director. Next thing you know, the kid's on the baseball team.

I'm not saying we go back to the days when we allowed teachers to dish out corporal punishment, but we need to get back to a time when a student's "feelings" dictated his educational progress. My daughter's old high school in San Diego dabbled with the idea of giving no student a failing grade, so long as the student didn't have excessive absences.

What the fuck is that?

We need to stop giving out participation trophies and start demanding that students actually perform...
By Politics_Observer
#15052058
@late

Yup, private universities are selective because to keep their doors open, they need students who can survive in the long haul. If you take bad students, they will fail out and that means a loss of income for the private university which could mean they end up closing their doors. They have to keep their academics tough for their degrees to be worth anything so that people are willing to send them to their schools.

So, to keep their academics tough in order to retain the value of their degrees and still be able to keep their doors open by turning a profit, they have to be very selective who they admit into their school and that means taking top notch and hard working students. The quality of students at the private universities is much better too. A lot of them work very hard and are very focused. But to be able to meet these selectivity requirements, these students generally come from private schools like a private school that has k-12 for example that have tough academics and prepare them to get into these more selective private universities.

I think the main reason the private university that I am attending now was willing to take me on is because I graduated with a Bachelor of Science from a public university debt free all while working part time and serving in the Army National Guards and going on several deployments prior to serving in a time of war in Afghanistan. My GPA suffered but I still managed to graduate in an otherwise tough field and graduate debt free. That and they knew I had the full buying power of the US government behind me paying the full cost of my education. So, they probably felt I had a good chance of being in it for the long haul, I was older and more mature now and more focused and that I would graduate. But the academics are pretty darn tough. I can see why they are selective.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15052066
late wrote:Americans hate education reform.

Yea, this much is very true.

@Politics_Observer,

I disagree with your assessment about public versus private universities. I disagree massively. There are many VERY good and world renowned public Universities in the US. International students flock to these Universities in droves. You're gonna tell my UIUC (they basically invented the modern consumer internet), a public school is no good? Really? Michigan isn't a good school? They are killing it in AI research, hence why the company I work for has a deep relationship with that University. Utah isn't good? They are world leaders in computer architecture. Etc.etc. etc. I would go as far to say that most state universities are really good institutions.

When I worked for Intel, most of the top tier 1 schools we would go to for recruitment were public universities (companies rank schools for recruiting purposes). Including my alma mater, Florida. Florida is a hotbed for analog design as well, hence TI (world's largest analog chip manufacturer) loves Florida more than any other school....

I have to respectfully say, your perspective on this one is very limited and totally incorrect.

By the way, the NSA recruits at the public university I attended (The University of Florida). ;) A friend I studied with works there. That said, I would also disagree that whether the NSA recruits at a school or not is not the sole marker of a good institution.

The advantage of private schools is basically the networking that happens between the children of wealthy families. A bunch of well connected families become better connected through their children. That's really the advantage they have, it's not a different in the core education they are getting. I've worked with guys from MIT that are fucking morons.


In my opinion, the problem of education in the US is not at the university level, it's the level below that. We have this interesting contrast where k-12 education is broken and shit (unless you live in a wealthy neighborhood), but post secondary is really good.

Notice that @late is talking about k-12 reform.
Last edited by Rancid on 01 Dec 2019 15:39, edited 1 time in total.
By Politics_Observer
#15052068
@Rancid

Yup, here in at the local military base they do recruit some of the University of Florida graduates, but they recruit far more from the local private university which is known for it's engineering programs. You would honestly be better off attending the private university in my local area than the University of Florida to have better chance of getting an engineering job at the local military installation in my area. You can get hired on the local military installation graduating from the University of Florida and they do have some of those graduates, but the local military installation recruits harder from the local private university which is very well respected in engineering.

The NSA also very heavily recruits from my school which is credentialed by the NSA as well. Here is the University of Florida's credentialing with the NSA (which I do not attend University of Florida obviously): https://www.cise.ufl.edu/uf-designated- ... -research/ . Ours is in NSA National Center of Academic Excellence in Information Assurance. University of Florida appears to be in Cyber Defense research. I am not trying to put down public universities, but I do think the quality of education I am getting now is better than what I got from when I attended and graduated from public university. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion.
Last edited by Politics_Observer on 01 Dec 2019 15:44, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15052070
Politics_Observer wrote:@Rancid

Yup, here in at the local military base they do recruit some of the University of Florida graduates, but they recruit far more from the local private university. The NSA also very heavily recruits from my school which is credentialed by the NSA as well. Here is the University of Florida's credentialing with the NSA: https://www.cise.ufl.edu/uf-designated- ... -research/ . Ours is in NSA National Center of Academic Excellence in Information Assurance. University of Florida appears to be in Cyber Defense research. I am not trying to put down public universities, but I do think the quality of education I am getting now is better than what I got from when I attended and graduated from public university. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion.


You're appearing to be basing your entire judgement on where the NSA recruits. Do you think that's a comprehensive enough metric to make such a broad judgement of private versus public university? I would say no. That's not enough data. The NSA simply does not represent the breadth of skills and knowledge that people gain at universities.

To me, the US public university system is top notch all around. It's very clear from the fact that so many people from around the world flock to these schools, and so many companies love to recruit from these schools. There's a history of ground breaking invention and research from these places. As a whole, the public university system is strong. The only real problem is cost.

The k-12 is very broken, which is one of the reason's the universities have to import students. In my graduate classes, I was 1 of typically 3-4 US born students. The other 10-20 (depending on the particular class enrollment size) were foreign born. This is a direct result of the broken k-12 system.
By Politics_Observer
#15052071
@Rancid

I am not basing my view solely on where the NSA recruits. I was also looking at where my local military installation recruits heavily from (which my local military installation is NOT the NSA). That being said, I can see that the NSA probably heavily recruits from the University of Florida given that they are credentialed with the NSA. How heavily they recruit from the University of Florida, I can't say for sure because I don't live down there.

What I can say for sure is that my local military installation (which is not the NSA) does heavily recruit hard at the local private university (which I do not attend, I attend a different private university where I take online classes) and they hire more engineers from the private university than they do from the University of Florida. That being said, my local military installation DOES hire from the University of Florida for engineers, just not as many.

But the school I am attending right now is known for cyber security and the NSA does recruit heavily from my school and they have credentialed my private university for Academic Excellence in Information Assurance. I am also basing my views on attending public university in the past and comparing my experience to what it is like to currently attend a private university.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15052073
Politics_Observer wrote:@Rancid

I am not basing my view solely on where the NSA recruits. I was also looking at where my local military installation recruits heavily from (which my local military installation is NOT the NSA). That being said, I can see that the NSA probably heavily recruits from the University of Florida given that they are credentialed with the NSA. How heavily they recruit from the University of Florida, I can't say for sure because I don't live down there.

What I can say for sure is that my local military installation (which is not the NSA) does heavily recruit hard at the local private university (which I do not attend, I attend a different private university where I take online classes) and they hire more engineers from the private university than they do from the University of Florida. That being said, my local military installation DOES hire from the University of Florida for engineers, just not as many.

But the school I am attending right now is known for cyber security and the NSA does recruit heavily from my school and they have credentialed my private university for Academic Excellence in Information Assurance. I am also basing my views on attending public university in the past and comparing my experience to what it is like to currently attend a private university.


The company I work for, currently hires far more from public universities than private. Does that mean public universities are better than private? No, of course not. It would be foolish to draw such a sweeping conclusion from this point alone. This is the flaw of what you are doing. Drawing too big of a conclusion from very little data.

Different universities will be strong in certain areas than others (hence why NSA recruits how they do, and my company recruits like it does). Further, I've not seen any compelling data in this thread that would suggest in anyway, that private is generally better than public. I could very well claim public is better than private based on how my company recruits, but i know better. That is not a proper assessment. Your assessment isn't proper either.

At the moment, based on what's in this thread, the most objective conclusion to public versus private university is that it's inconclusive on that bassis that there is not enough data, and not a well defined judgement criteria.

I think we've gone on a tangent, because this thread is really about k-12 public education, which ism in fact, VERY broken. You don't need to even look at private k-12 schools to make the case either.

@late, did you see some of my posts a few weeks ago about the elementary and middle school closures here in Austin? Great example of how fucked up public k-12 is.
Last edited by Rancid on 01 Dec 2019 16:05, edited 1 time in total.
By Politics_Observer
#15052075
@Rancid

You might be right and I can very well be wrong. So, I was basing my post on my personal experience. I do feel like I am currently getting a better education at the private school I am currently attending. One of my professors who earned his many degrees from a public institution also agrees that the education is better at this particular school I am attending than what he saw at public schools he attended. He remarks that a lot of the public school teachers don't really seem to "give a shit" in his words.

To find the truth of the matter, I would have to research into actual facts and data and draw objective and appropriate logical conclusions. You could very well be right and I can be wrong Rancid. I haven't researched into hard data in this specific topic and was drawing on my personal experience. What we can certainly agree on though, is that the best schools here in the United States are private universities such as Harvard, Yale and Stanford for example. There is a reason why everybody wants to get into these schools. Sure you have great connections at these schools but the academics are very tough too.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15052079
Politics_Observer wrote: I do feel like I am currently getting a better education at the private school I am currently attending.

I do not doubt that.

Politics_Observer wrote:agrees that the education is better at this particular school I am attending than what he saw at public schools he attended.

Sure, but that's not good enough to draw a sweeping conclusion.

Politics_Observer wrote: You could very well be right and I can be wrong Rancid.


To be clear, I NEVER made the claim public is better than private. I only made the claim that your particular assessment is flawed and thus invalid. Invalid/inconclusive is the better way to describe it. I wouldn't know if it's wrong, since there's really not enough data nor have we defined way to judge the question.

Politics_Observer wrote: What we can certainly agree on though, is that the best schools here in the United States are private universities such as Harvard, Yale and Stanford for example.

Generally top schools? Yes. The best? No. It really depends on how you define what "best" actually means. Best for who? Best for someone that's not rich? best for someone that wants to study paleontology? Best for what?

Further, harvard, yale, etc. etc. is not a representation of all private schools.... There are plenty of shit private schools out there as well.
Last edited by Rancid on 01 Dec 2019 16:20, edited 1 time in total.
By Politics_Observer
#15052081
@Rancid

I agree that there is some shit private schools out there as well. Generally, they are also not properly credentialed and rip people off. I am not making "sweeping generalizations" necessarily. What I am doing, is telling you my personal experience and my opinion. I am entitled to my opinion as well just like you. That doesn't mean my opinion is right. I would have to do more research and dig up facts and logical conclusions on the matter.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15052082
Politics_Observer wrote: I am not making "sweeping generalizations" necessarily.


This is a sweeping conclusion:
Politics_Observer wrote:gaining access to a good private university that is properly accredited and federally funded (though not state funded, I am here in the United States) is the quality of the education is much better than what you get at state funded public schools.


A non-sweeping conclusion would have been:
"The private school I attend now, is better than the public school I previously attended."

If you meant to say this, then let me know.
By Politics_Observer
#15052084
@Rancid

I concede the point and I do apologize. Perhaps I was making sweeping generalizations. The private university I am currently attending does give a better education than the public school I last attended in my opinion. But I also have to admit, attending the private school I am attending is an eye opening experience and I think wealthy people get educational advantages others do not get.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15052085
Politics_Observer wrote:@Rancid

I concede the point and I do apologize. Perhaps I was making sweeping generalizations. The private university I am currently attending does give a better education than the public school I last attended in my opinion. But I also have to admit, attending the private school I am attending is an eye opening experience and I think wealthy people get educational advantages others do not get.

ok
User avatar
By Tainari88
#15052087
Politics_Observer wrote:@Rancid

I concede the point and I do apologize. Perhaps I was making sweeping generalizations. The private university I am currently attending does give a better education than the public school I last attended in my opinion. But I also have to admit, attending the private school I am attending is an eye opening experience and I think wealthy people get educational advantages others do not get.


Politics Observer the reality is that the wealthy get huge advantages about nearly everything. Extra tutorings at places like Kumon or Sylvan Learning centers or private tutoring packages online. Small class size, better and modern facilities with tons of free up-to-date computers. Better paid professional professors, etc.

But I happen to think all of that is going to be thrown out the window with technology and how things work now. Now you can get some professor or top of their field professional to give super affordable and cheap online lectures for small amounts of money and anyone can get online and sign up for their courses and then if they want to do the work for the class? They can buy it for a very small fee and do it themselves. They by pass the selection process to get into those elitist institutions and they give the same quality of information and emphasis to the students interested in signing up to learn. From all over the world. Translated into the student's native language.

I am signing up for a novel writing class with Margaret Atwood she is a world reknown novelist of fiction. Her course is $15 dollars a month. You take notes and do the exercises. I finish her and am interested in cooking great soup or something? I get the best in the world at soup and do his course? $15 dollars a month. Etc and etc.

In the end the people who can follow along the correct format and do the work required? And by pass the huge sales pitching that those university do to the parents of the alumni in those expensive schools? It is not worth putting your family into 30 year student loan debt to do those things. When you can sign up for some masterclass by the best in the world for a fraction of a cost.

It doesn't need to cost a lot to get a great education. But you do need to be able to do some research and avoid education scams where a school charges an arm and a leg in tuition and fees yet the degree no one really recognizes as superior in your field.

University of Denver comes to mind. That school is more expensive than Harvard. Yet they graduate people from there and share the same profs as the super cheapo university down the road called Metro State University.

The people who will do badly at school at any age are going to be people who have to work full time, have small dependent children and no one to help them pay for expenses.

Also being lazy people who only started reading consistently when they started college. People with a lifetime of bad study habits you see in this forum very easily. They don't like doing research, they don't know how to interpret information, and they have weak backgrounds in processing information. Most of them never picked up any books on their own political parties history much less other ideologies. Bad thinkers, they resort to insults and feelings and emotional hatred for the other groups with different politics. Unfortunately they are not educated in anyone's politics--not even their own---and resort to insults, petty bickering and whining to administrators when they lose.

Those people are the ones who got the shitty educations. Guaranteed.
By Politics_Observer
#15052113
@Rancid @Tainari88

So, let's look at the facts that cannot be disputed. In the United Kingdom, the University of Cambridge published a study that shows private school graduates earn more (Cambridge University, 2014). So, in the United Kingdom, evidence seems to suggest that private school graduates earn more than public school graduates. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the quality of the education is different from a public school. An article from one of my sources in regards to the UK states:

Cambridge University wrote:Arguably this might be expected, say the researchers, as some of the higher earnings of graduates who attended private schools is down to the fact that they have better A-level grades and this in turn enables them to go on to attend more prestigious universities and study subjects which tend to be more highly rewarded.

But once the researchers analysed graduates who went to the same university to study the same subject and who left with the same degree class, those who went to private schools still earn an average of 7% more three and a half years after graduation.

Amongst graduates from the same backgrounds, who studied the same subject in the same university, and who went into the same occupation, those from private schools still earn 6% more, on average, than those from state schools.

(Cambridge University, 2014)

Now, I have seen this sort of thing at my local military installation where graduates of the private school earned more money and got generous sign on bonuses in return for several years working for the government that many (though not necessarily all) public school graduates might not get. That's here in the United States and not the United Kingdom.

So, according to National Association of Independent Schools and Gallup private school graduates before enrolling for college are more likely to gain admission into college (whether that is a public university or private university is another story) (Study International Staff, 2019). The British Educational Research Journal in 2017 also indicated that private school graduates are likely to command higher salaries (Study International Staff, 2019). A quote from the article by the Study International Staff states:

Study International Staff wrote:“It is commonly conjectured that the broader curriculum that private schools are able to deliver, coupled with the peer pressures of a partially segregated section of society, help to inculcate cultural capital, including some key ‘noncognitive’ attributes,” the researchers wrote.

As a result, they command a wage premium that goes as high as 35 percent for males at age 42 and 21 percent for females. This is after allowing for differences in family backgrounds. The research also found that they are usually in jobs that require significantly greater leadership skills, greater work intensity and offer greater organisational participation/

(Study International Staff, 2019)

Also according to Business Insider, private school is determining tomorrows millionaires (Bigham, 2014). That being said, my research indicates that the quality of education might not necessarily be better at a private university as opposed to a public school but the degrees are more marketable and do command a higher salary from a properly accredited private university (Patel, 2019). Interestingly enough, I have discovered that MIT here in the US known for it's computer science program is a private university and one of the top computer science schools in the nation (Patel, 2019). I had always thought MIT was a public university until I started doing some research into this topic. My particular private university is known for business and it's cyber-security programs, so it is very focused on doing well in both of those areas. So, that's what some of my research has un-earthed from various resources.


References -

Cambridge University. (2014, October 31). Graduates who went to private schools earn more than graduates who did not, finds study. Retrieved December 1, 2019, from https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/gra ... inds-study

Study International Staff. (2019, September 3). Private school benefits: What reports & research have to say. Retrieved December 1, 2019, from https://www.studyinternational.com/news ... e-schools/

Bigham, J. (2014, October 30). Private School Is Determining Tomorrow's Millionaires. Retrieved December 1, 2019 from https://www.businessinsider.com/private ... ?r=US&IR=T

Patel, J. (2019, January 2). Should I Go to a Public University or Private College?. Retrieved December 1, 2019, from https://www.niche.com/blog/should-i-go- ... e-college/
User avatar
By Rancid
#15052119
Politics_Observer wrote:@Rancid @Tainari88

So, let's look at the facts that cannot be disputed. In the United Kingdom, the University of Cambridge published a study that shows private school graduates earn more (Cambridge University, 2014). So, in the United Kingdom, evidence seems to suggest that private school graduates earn more than public school graduates. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the quality of the education is different from a public school. An article from one of my sources in regards to the UK states:


(Cambridge University, 2014)

Now, I have seen this sort of thing at my local military installation where graduates of the private school earned more money and got generous sign on bonuses in return for several years working for the government that many (though not necessarily all) public school graduates might not get. That's here in the United States and not the United Kingdom.

So, according to National Association of Independent Schools and Gallup private school graduates before enrolling for college are more likely to gain admission into college (whether that is a public university or private university is another story) (Study International Staff, 2019). The British Educational Research Journal in 2017 also indicated that private school graduates are likely to command higher salaries (Study International Staff, 2019). A quote from the article by the Study International Staff states:


(Study International Staff, 2019)

Also according to Business Insider, private school is determining tomorrows millionaires (Bigham, 2014). That being said, my research indicates that the quality of education might not necessarily be better at a private university as opposed to a public school but the degrees are more marketable and do command a higher salary from a properly accredited private university (Patel, 2019). Interestingly enough, I have discovered that MIT here in the US known for it's computer science program is a private university and one of the top computer science schools in the nation (Patel, 2019). I had always thought MIT was a public university until I started doing some research into this topic. My particular private university is known for business and it's cyber-security programs, so it is very focused on doing well in both of those areas. So, that's what some of my research has un-earthed from various resources.


References -

Cambridge University. (2014, October 31). Graduates who went to private schools earn more than graduates who did not, finds study. Retrieved December 1, 2019, from https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/gra ... inds-study

Study International Staff. (2019, September 3). Private school benefits: What reports & research have to say. Retrieved December 1, 2019, from https://www.studyinternational.com/news ... e-schools/

Bigham, J. (2014, October 30). Private School Is Determining Tomorrow's Millionaires. Retrieved December 1, 2019 from https://www.businessinsider.com/private ... ?r=US&IR=T

Patel, J. (2019, January 2). Should I Go to a Public University or Private College?. Retrieved December 1, 2019, from https://www.niche.com/blog/should-i-go- ... e-college/


I thought we were talking about American Universities? Further, you seem to be focused on that top top top top top tier private schools. Why not, say, the University of Miami, which is a private school.

In any case I don't doubt private graduates earn more. However, it would be false to assume this is because it's a better education (as you note as well). As we know, many private schools are really just places where the children to already privileged and well connected people go to deeping the strength of their networks. Basically, it re-enforces the good ol boys clubs. I don't expect you to be able to decouple those factors as it would require ton of research and data to sift through.

I'd be much more curious to see data as a return on investment. That is, the cost of tuition against earnings after graduation. It would also need to be normalized against specific degree programs and some overall metric. Kind of like how we measure same store sales to understand the health of a retail company. I'd want to see same-degree ROI. My hypothesis is, that many private universities will be at the top of the list, but I'm sure there would be at least a few public universities as well.

Overall, you have not defined to me what "better" actually means? IS it pay after graduation? Is it quality of education? Is it pay normalized against cost of tuition? Is it the rate of finding a job after graduation? Access and success of students from a lower socioeconomic class?... there are numerous ways to define better.
Last edited by Rancid on 01 Dec 2019 21:04, edited 2 times in total.
By Politics_Observer
#15052121
@Rancid

Rancid wrote:However, it would be false to assume this is because it's a better education.


I agree based on my research. Just because a school is private, doesn't necessarily mean it's better. It can mean that it is better than some but not all public schools. And it can be worse than some but not all public schools. Private schools can be the old boy network as you say based on the data. I do feel better prepared for the computer profession from my private school university versus my public school university education. However, my public school university I attended is not known for it's computer science programs. Rather, it is known for it's education department and producing teachers. Whereas my private school university is known for business and cyber-security. Thus it would make sense that I feel I am getting a better education for the computer profession at the private school I am currently attending. That doesn't mean that private school has a better overall education than public university according to the data.

If 18 trillion will "hurt a lot", then […]

Words I ignore: Don’t go there. Words I embrace[…]

There have been many "dissenting" paper[…]

The Irishman...

Another lib who can't admit she's wrong. You sai[…]