Man Shot To Death At Political Demonstation In Denver; Police Assure The Public It Wasn't Antifa - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15126761
annatar1914 wrote:
A photo of the moment;

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkBZMZEXYAE2qGm?format=jpg&name=medium[img]

Security guard's cartridge round is already ejecting AND the deceased is spraying the bear mace at the same time.



Skateboards, tasers, and bear mace are all *non-lethal*.

Is 'overreaction' in anyone's vocabulary anymore?
#15126765
ckaihatsu wrote:Skateboards, tasers, and bear mace are all *non-lethal*.


No they are not. Blunt objects like skateboards are definitely lethal(especially when they're smashing you in the head), tasers are designated 'less lethal' but they're certainly not "non-lethal", and while bear mace may be unlikely to kill a person on its own, it can definitely disorient you long enough to allow an attacker to beat you to death with a rock or stab you or whatever. You attack a person with any of those weapons and they will be well within their rights to shoot you dead.
#15126774
ckaihatsu wrote:Skateboards, tasers, and bear mace are all *non-lethal*.

Is 'overreaction' in anyone's vocabulary anymore?


If one was so inclined, one could incapacitate another person with a skateboard, a taser, or mace, and do someone a fatal injury.

Was it an overreaction? Quite possibly, still thinking about that.
#15126780
annatar1914 wrote:If one was so inclined, one could incapacitate another person with a skateboard, a taser, or mace, and do someone a fatal injury.


I think you're supposed to trust that the person that just hit you in the head with a skateboard, or maced you or tased you, doesn't mean you any real harm. You're supposed to just assume that they're gonna stop once you're down and they're not gonna proceed to shit stomp you to death once they got you incapacitated.
#15126782
Sivad wrote:I think you're supposed to trust that the person that just hit you in the head with a skateboard, or maced you or tased you, doesn't mean you any real harm. You're supposed to just assume that they're gonna stop once you're down and they're not gonna proceed to shit stomp you to death once they got you incapacitated.


Exactly. Common sense.

I wonder how many of these people are ones who have never been in a serious fight in their entire lives?
#15126822


The shooter has now been identified by the Denver police as Matthew Dollof, and now more information is coming out about him.

Security guard suspected in fatal protest shooting not licensed in Denver, city says

Lee Keltner became at least the fourth person shot during protests in Colorado so far this year when he was killed Saturday after a conflict with a private security guard in downtown Denver.

Family members identified Keltner, 49, as the man fatally shot during dueling protests Saturday in downtown Denver. Police on Sunday identified a 30-year-old man as the suspect and confirmed he was working as a private security guard at the time and not participating in the protest.

But city officials don’t believe shooting suspect Matthew Robert Dolloff was licensed to work as an armed private security guard in Denver.

Dolloff remained in jail Sunday without bond on suspicion of first-degree murder in the shooting, jail records show.

He was working as a contracted security guard for Denver television station 9News when the shooting occurred, the television station has said.

A sequence of photos of the incident captured by a Denver Post photographer appears to show Keltner slapping Dolloff in the face before the two back away from each other. The next image shows Dolloff shooting at Keltner — a shell casing is seen being ejected from his handgun — as Keltner fires a cloud of pepper spray at Dolloff.

Police detained Dolloff and a 9News employee at the scene, but released the station employee after he gave a statement.

The man who died has not been named publicly by officials, but his son identified him as Lee Keltner in an interview with The Post on Sunday.

Keltner, 49, was a Navy veteran who ran a hat-making business in the Denver area for many years, his son, Johnathon Keltner, said.

“He wasn’t a part of any group,” Johnathon Keltner said. “He was there to rally for the police department and he’d been down there before rallying for the police department.”

Carol Keltner, who said she lives in Arkansas and identified herself as Lee Keltner’s mother, posted a message on the Northeast Arkansas Tea Party Group on Facebook announcing his death at the Denver rally. “He was murdered because he backed the police,” she wrote.

At least three others have been shot during protests in Colorado this year. Two were injured in a shooting during a protest in Aurora and another man was shot in the head during a protest in Alamosa.

A Facebook page with Dolloff’s full name and a photo that appears to match his jail booking photo shows that he worked on a ranch on the Eastern Plains where he raised sheep and dogs. Court records show Dolloff had no previous criminal history beyond traffic incidents.

Pinkerton, the security company 9News said it contracted with for the protest, did not reply to questions from The Post sent Sunday morning.

While Pinkerton had an active license to employ security guards in Denver, officials have no record that Dolloff had the required city license to work as a private security guard, said Eric Escudero, spokesman for the Denver Department of Excise and Licenses.

“We do not currently have an active license and have never had an active license for anybody with that name,” he said. “If he was operating as a security guard, he was in violation of the law.”

The cities of Denver, Colorado Springs and Glendale require private security guards to obtain city-issued licenses, though there are no statewide license requirements. Denver’s licensing process requires guards to complete 16 hours of training by an “eligible training provider” before working in the city. Further training is required before a guard can carry a firearm during work or dress in plainclothes.

Someone working as private security without the required license can face up to a $999 fine and a year in jail, Escudero said. If a registered security company employs guards who are not licensed, the company can also face fines and the suspension or revocation of their license.

A job listing by Pinkerton for a part-time security job in Denver states applicants must have a high school diploma, a concealed carry license and a merchant guard license, which is offered by the city.

The investigation into Dolloff’s and Pinkerton’s licensing is ongoing, Escudero said.


This local NBC affiliate is fucked!

What I don't understand is how law enforcement departments and local officials don't declare unlawful assemblies when antifa and Burn Loot Murder groups show show up to oppose peaceful protesters.

It seems like the same MO almost every time; either some pro-police, pro-Trump and/or pro-free speech group decides to exercise their first amendment rights and then the antifa and Burn Loot Murder groups show up with makeshift weapons and instigates a confrontation.

This time antifa organized some kind of homosexual opposition to the patriot group, started making trouble and threw soup cans at the police.

Image

Ever since Charlottesville, these events have escalated out of control and turned lethal many times over now. Why aren't the police doing more to keep these groups apart?
#15126831
maz wrote:
Ever since Charlottesville, these events have escalated out of control and turned lethal many times over now. Why aren't the police doing more to keep these groups apart?



I think the *nation*, and the *population* in general, are at a crossroads regarding *policy* -- should 'violence' be seen more as what the *government* does, as with police brutality / killings and allowing *fascist* violence, or in what *protestors* do in opposing this government / fascist violence?

Let's call it a 'cold civil war', for lack of any better teminology / phrasing.
#15126863
Image

I'm not referring to the meme here so much as the picture attached, for once :lol:

I think the lethality of mace (or whatever) is contextual. This guy was surrounded by people and cops and he does not appear to have been effected by the mace. Also, a security guard has no business arguing with people. That's my take from what I've seen so far.

Closeup of his expression after he shot the guy:
Image
#15126875
Wulfschilde wrote:
I think the lethality of mace (or whatever) is contextual. This guy was surrounded by people and cops and he does not appear to have been effected by the mace.


It is contextual, the context is the real world where shit can pop off in a split second and you can be dead before the cops that are 50 ft away even know what's going on. If you don't want to get shot to death then don't bear mace people, it's just that fucking simple.

If that fucker attacked the corporate gun thug just with his fists I'd say the gun thug had good cause to shoot him dead, I don't want to live in a society where people get to violently assault me and I'll go to prison if I do what's necessary to prevent them from fracturing my skull or breaking my jaw or worse. I want to live in a society where if someone wants to box it's completely up to me if I want to throw rocks.
#15126876
I don't know much about the bumblefuck that is the US law and order system and how it varies state to state, but from my experience here law enforcement and security can act along the force continuum one level above the perceived assailant. i.e if somebody tries to hurt you unarmed you can reciprocate, retrain and take away their freedom, if somebody tries to hurt you with a deadly weapon you are allowed to act to the point of killing them. Mace is not a deadly weapon. Fists potentially can be argued as deadly weapons if the assailant is big and the perceived victim small. So being maced is not good cause for killing someone with a gun. I think this guard is fucked.

Also the news crew that hired an armed guard at a public rally will be held accountable. It's so not the place for private, roaming armed security.
#15126880
If I were at a protest and I saw just one person with a gun on their hip I'm straight the fuck gone outta there bye felicia.

If you need weapons like batons and mace etc to be at a protest I'm out.

But my country doesn't allow that stupid shit anyways. Good job America.
#15126903
Igor Antunov wrote:I don't know much about the bumblefuck that is the US law and order system and how it varies state to state, but from my experience here law enforcement and security can act along the force continuum one level above the perceived assailant. i.e if somebody tries to hurt you unarmed you can reciprocate, retrain and take away their freedom, if somebody tries to hurt you with a deadly weapon you are allowed to act to the point of killing them. Mace is not a deadly weapon. Fists potentially can be argued as deadly weapons if the assailant is big and the perceived victim small. So being maced is not good cause for killing someone with a gun. I think this guard is fucked.

Also the news crew that hired an armed guard at a public rally will be held accountable. It's so not the place for private, roaming armed security.

I have no idea how security guard laws work but it's been noted by some credible sources that the security guard didn't have a valid security guard license, so anything like that would not apply to him.

@Sivad I think it's lethal weapon vs. non-lethal weapon. I found a link to Colorado self defense law if you're curious: https://www.shouselaw.com/co/defense/le ... follows%20“Stand%20Your%20Ground,including%20deadly%20force%20–%20without%20withdrawing.&text=However%2C%20it%20only%20allows%20trespassers,self-defense%20against%20unlawful%20force.
#15126931
Igor Antunov wrote:I don't know much about the bumblefuck that is the US law and order system and how it varies state to state, but from my experience here law enforcement and security can act along the force continuum one level above the perceived assailant. i.e if somebody tries to hurt you unarmed you can reciprocate, retrain and take away their freedom, if somebody tries to hurt you with a deadly weapon you are allowed to act to the point of killing them. Mace is not a deadly weapon. Fists potentially can be argued as deadly weapons if the assailant is big and the perceived victim small. So being maced is not good cause for killing someone with a gun. I think this guard is fucked.

Also the news crew that hired an armed guard at a public rally will be held accountable. It's so not the place for private, roaming armed security.


The problem is the local news affiliate jumped to the killers defense, claiming that he was an employee of a private security firm.

This has now been apparently debunked by the private security firm.

Apparently he was just a random leftist who brought a gun to a protest and instigated a conflict and murdered a man who was just there to show his support for the police or Trump or whatever.

He appears to have just been the friend of one of the station's reporters, who is an Antifa sympathizer and follows Antifa accounts on Twitter.
#15126936
Wulfschilde wrote:OK, I guess we know...

"... under Colorado law only an initial aggressor has a duty to retreat."

— The People of the State of Colorado, Petitioner, v. Tristan Toler, Respondent.

No. 98SC858.

Supreme Court of Colorado, En Banc.


:)
#15126963
Wulfschilde wrote:Shooter charged with first degree murder.

Interesting. I wonder what they see in this? They must believe the shooter had a mens rea intent.

Sivad wrote:If you don't want to get shot to death then don't bear mace people, it's just that fucking simple.

Good advice, but I don't think that will be an effective defense against murder charges.

Igor Antunov wrote:Mace is not a deadly weapon.

If used as directed, this is true.

Igor Antunov wrote:Also the news crew that hired an armed guard at a public rally will be held accountable.

This is the interesting twist to the story. Are they independent contractors, or are they employed by the network?

maz wrote:The problem is the local news affiliate jumped to the killers defense, claiming that he was an employee of a private security firm.

This has now been apparently debunked by the private security firm.

They are obviously trying to get out of civil liability.

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