[Suchard]

Having socialized pharmacare and healthcare and education etc. doesn't mean your economy is socialist. Many countries with largely capitalist economies have these things.

I want you to send me a legit link saying that Spain has a socialist economy. I'll be waiting...

It's you who has fallen for your government's propaganda. Having a "Socialist government" (referring to the name of the party in power) does not mean you have a socialist government.

You are the one who is redefining socialism to mean capitalism. That's fine. If all the needs of the population are available by the state and you care to call that capitalism then alright. Most of us in the European Union think differently. Affordable housing, utilities, education, healthcare, affordable transport, policing, town sanitation (let's see what else?) are provided by socialist governments. I can give you the name of our town council that sweeps our streets and empties our community dumpsters every night at 1 a.m. but I cannot give you a Wikipedia link if that's what you want.

[Suchard]

Fundamentally, we already live in a mixed system where there is cooperation between private (i.e. free market forces) and public (government/common/social interests). You don't have to pick one or the other. You can also strike a balance between the two. I think we've gone too far into relying on market forces, most especially for healthcare, housing, and education.

Careful now; people will call you a socialist if you talk like that.

[Rancid]

Careful now; people will call you a socialist if you talk like that.

Correct, in the US in particular I am often labeled a socialist by Trumptards, even though I'm not. The reason we are where we are in the US at least, is largely due to cold war propaganda & the fall of the USSR. Basically, the fall of the USSR was seen as validation of the efficiency/success/strength of free markets. Although there is certainly validity to that statement, this idea was taken too far; it was weaponized by corporations and business elites. They managed to convince us that the free market is our lord and savior, and thus, we must submit ourselves to as much free market capitalism as possible. Clearly, it's not working for everyone.

what the fuck.. I'm starting to sound like Potemkin.

[Unthinking Majority]

Fundamentally, we already live in a mixed system where there is cooperation between private (i.e. free market forces) and public (government/common/social interests). You don't have to pick one or the other. You can also strike a balance between the two. I think we've gone too far into relying on market forces, most especially for healthcare, housing, and education.

Every western developed country has a mixed economy, they just differ in how much is capitalist vs socialist.

It's not surprising that the richest country in the world with the largest and most powerful corporations and some lax political funding laws has the most capitalist-friendly economy in the developed world. It's not surprising that US healthcare, post-secondary education, and housing has been historically fairly privatized and poorly regulated. It's also not surprising that most US voters have been convinced that this is in their best interests.

[Politics_Observer]

@Rancid

You commie you. You will be joining Potemkin in the revolutionary trenches before long fighting for the working class and the disadvantaged minorities. Kinda like Fred Hampton.

[Rancid]

@Rancid

You commie you. You will be joining Potemkin in the revolutionary trenches before long fighting for the working class and the disadvantaged minorities. Kinda like Fred Hampton.

Just the other day I was walking around this super wealthy neighborhood here in Austin. My wife was just in awe at the estates (yes, estates, not homes) we were walking around. I told her "well, the good news is, when the communist take over happens, these are the people that are going to get rounded up first, so we will have fair warnning."

[Suchard]

Correct, in the US in particular I am often labeled a socialist by Trumptards, even though I'm not. The reason we are where we are in the US at least, is largely due to cold war propaganda & the fall of the USSR. Basically, the fall of the USSR was seen as validation of the efficiency/success/strength of free markets. Although there is certainly validity to that statement, this idea was taken too far; it was weaponized by corporations and business elites. They managed to convince us that the free market is our lord and savior, and thus, we much submit ourselves to as much free market capitalism as possible. Clearly, it's not working for everyone.

what the fuck.. I'm starting to sound like Potemkin.

I agree with all you say except your phobia of socialism. Not to be a regulation-free market economy is synonymous with socialism communism in the USA. I can see the failure of American-style capitalism and all the money is against change where you are.

[wat0n]

I doubt it, but the reasons are irrelevant.

It is a simple fact of mathematics that housing prices are shooting up way faster than salaries are, much like the cost of education did a few decades ago.

How isn't the reason relevant?

Why is the problem so severe in cities with tight building and zoning codes while those with lax codes aren't doing as badly?

[Politics_Observer]

@Rancid

I'll probably be sent to a re-education camp when the revolution comes given my veteran status though it's not for certain. I could be regarded as a lumpenproletariat by the new revolutionaries.

[Unthinking Majority]

You are the one who is redefining socialism to mean capitalism. That's fine. If all the needs of the population are available by the state and you care to call that capitalism then alright. Most of us in the European Union think differently. Affordable housing, utilities, education, healthcare, affordable transport, policing, town sanitation (let's see what else?) are provided by socialist governments. I can give you the name of our town council that sweeps our streets and empties our community dumpsters every night at 1 a.m. but I cannot give you a Wikipedia link if that's what you want.

I want you to send a link saying that Spain has a socialist economy. That's a very, very simple request. If it's socialist it will be easy.

The US also has public transportation, policing, sanitation, street sweepers, many public utilities, and public primary/secondary schools.

So you're saying if a country has socialized medicine and education and more regulation this makes a country socialist? I'm pretty sure the majority of industries and economic activity in Spain are privately owned capitalist. Do you have a private banking industry? Food? Clothing? Real estate? Auto industry?

It's a mixed economy.

[Rancid]

I agree with all you say except your phobia of socialism. Not to be a regulation-free market economy is synonymous with socialism communism in the USA. I can see the failure of American-style capitalism and all the money is against change where you are.

I wouldn't call it a fear. I just think there are elements to capitalism that work. Much of the innovations we rely on where motivated by market forces. I'm all about moderation.

Chico, si pudiera, me mudaría a España!

I was supposed to stay there for a month, but covid fuck it all up.

[Julian658]

Why can't we do both?

Who benefits from the disenfranchised? The Dems. They are the ticket to win elections. Don't get me wrong the left has a very legitimate role. They are the ones that speak for the disenfranchised. The war on poverty started in 1965. The results have not been stellar. Paradoxically poverty was coming down at a faster rate since 1965.



Giving cash to a poor person works if the poor person has some brains and a nice family of origin (FOO). FOO provides the memes needed to get ahead. If I was king my plan to end poverty would be: Two parent homes where education is valued. That is why East Asians and Indian immigrants do so well. They actually have parents that care. A good FOO is not easy to achieve, but we need to start somewhere. This is something the left does not understand.

BTW, the poor of this era are better off than he poor in 1900. There has been an absolute benefit in giving cash to the poor. They have access to things that not even middle class people could obtain in the 1950s. However, relatively speaking they remain poor.

Trevor Phillips, an Afro-Brit, former head of Equality in the UK was called a racist for suggesting a study to understand why Chinese Brits had economic success in the UK. A long time I ago I proposed prep schools with strict discipline and that was called racist by most in this forum. So the only avenue left is to throw money at the problem. In this manner the Dems win every four years.

[Julian658]

I wouldn't call it a fear. I just think there are elements to capitalism that work. Much of the innovations we rely on where motivated by market forces. I'm all about moderation.

Chico, i pudiera, me mudaría a España!

I was supposed to stay there for a month, but covid fuck it all up.

Like the other Euro countries Spain needs young educated immigrants. The Spaniards do not reproduce so they need new blood.

I like Spain a whole lot more that the US, but I have always been a visitor. The unemployment is high and the nation is relatively empty. There is little traffic in highways outside the major cities. The geography is awesome as well as the food. IN Granada you can have a beer for 1.50 Euro and that includes a free tapa.

[Rancid]

Like the other Euro countries Spain needs young educated immigrants. The Spaniards do not reproduce so they need new blood.

I like Spain a whole lot more that the US, but I have always been a visitor. The unemployment is high and the nation is relatively empty. There is little traffic in highways outside the major cities. The geography is awesome as well as the food. IN Granada you can have a beer for 1.50 Euro and that includes a free tapa.

Yea, there's a little bit of a tech boom happening there though. Madrid and Barcelona in particular. There's a super computer lab in Barcelona.

[Tainari88]

@Rancid I will have to take the phobia of socialism away from you....give you some pina coladas and getting caught in the rain...

@Suchard is into what? EU socialism? Well @Unthinking Majority there are some socialists in Spain if my memory doesn't fail me there was a Jose Zapatero guy....socialist PM or something from Spain...he had some great verbal fights with the more conservative elements in Spain. Spanish feuds over politics are very entertaining.

For you @Rancid :

If you like pina coladas, getting caught with socialist phobia,

Then you need to be reprogrammed with a new phobia,

You need to get over the socialism phobia, and go for zootopia instead,

Yes I like Pina Colada,

And be part of a socialist armada....

Ya no estoy atrapado con el amor al dinero,
Es algo nuevo,

Me gusta ser un dominicano con menos dinero....

[Tainari88]

Spain did not die and burn down....because a socialist was PM in Spain. But the young people weren't impressed. They wanted JOBS.

They wanted an end to the monarchy. Lol.

[wat0n]

The PSOE has been a fairly standard social democrat party ever since the end of Franquismo.

[Pants-of-dog]

How isn't the reason relevant?

Why is the problem so severe in cities with tight building and zoning codes while those with lax codes aren't doing as badly?

If you want to make this claim, provide evidence for it, and tie it back to the topic, feel free.

——————

Another reason that young people are becoming socialists is because they see we need international solutions to international problems. Climate change is one of them, but so is the race to the bottom in terms of worker’s protections and rights.

[wat0n]

If you want to make this claim, provide evidence for it, and tie it back to the topic, feel free.

Go on:

https://www.brookings.edu/research/what ... t-control/

It's related because it shows government intervention can actually make the very same problems it purports to solve worse in the long run.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

1. I am not sure what claim you think you are making.

2. I have no idea how this text supports whatever claim you are making.

3. If one particular aspect of government intervention does not work, this does not mean that all intervention does not work.