America's Overwork Obsession - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15167577
Overwork obsession is not fun people--What do you think needs to happen for people in the USA who work so they can get some rest?




It is hard-hitting.
#15167586
I agree that American culture glorifies work a bit way too much. However, if you want overwork obsession, I ask you to look at India, Korea, Japan. The Indians I work with always laugh when they hear things like "Americans work too much." This is probably why educated koreans, indians, etc. do so well in America.

By western standards, Americans overwork, by global standards, they do not.
#15167596
Rancid wrote:I agree that American culture glorifies work a bit way too much. However, if you want overwork obsession, I ask you to look at India, Korea, Japan. The Indians I work with always laugh when they hear things like "Americans work too much." This is probably why educated koreans, indians, etc. do so well in America.

By western standards, Americans overwork, by global standards, they do not.


Americans don't overwork even by Western standards, the average yearly worked hours per worker in the US are very close to the OECD average:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... abor_hours
#15167630
wat0n wrote:
Americans don't overwork even by Western standards, the average yearly worked hours per worker in the US are very close to the OECD average:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... abor_hours


I stand corrected then. Now that I think of it more, I can believe it. I read a lot of business news. There are constantly headlines about how many American workers complain that they aren't given enough hours to work. For example, at companies like Walmart, most workers do not get 40 hour work weeks. Part of it is to try and get around having to provide certain benefits, which is fucked up and a separate point/problem to address, but the point here is, they are not over working. If anything, many Americans are under employed.

All the companies I've worked for are generally very mindful and worried about overwork. In fact, my company is actively encouraging people to take more of their vacation days. In fact, I'm taking the entire month of June off, and that's in addition to the 5 weeks of vacation I get a year. 8)

At the same time, I'm sure there are certain industry segments where people are overworked like crazy. The one that I can think of is the video game development industry. Working for Amazon as an engineer (and warehouse worker I believe). etc. etc. So there are pockets of overworked groups, I'm sure.

Wellsy wrote:I live for the grind! #GrindUntilIDie


:lol: :D :)

I know you are joking, but fuck the grind. :lol:
#15167635
Rancid wrote:I stand corrected then. Now that I think of it more, I can believe it. I read a lot of business news. There are constantly headlines about how many American workers complain that they aren't given enough hours to work. For example, at companies like Walmart, most workers do not get 40 hour work weeks. Part of it is to try and get around having to provide certain benefits, which is fucked up and a separate point/problem to address, but the point here is, they are not over working. If anything, many Americans are under employed.

All the companies I've worked for are generally very mindful and worried about overwork. In fact, my company is actively encouraging people to take more of their vacation days. In fact, I'm taking the entire month of June off, and that's in addition to the 5 weeks of vacation I get a year. 8)

At the same time, I'm sure there are certain industry segments where people are overworked like crazy. The one that I can think of is the video game development industry. Working for Amazon as an engineer (and warehouse worker I believe). etc. etc. So there are pockets of overworked groups, I'm sure.


It seems to me that those who work crazy hours can be divided in two groups:

1) People who have little capital (material and human) who also face a high dependency ratio in their household. Think of the single mother doing 3 minimum wage jobs because she has 4 kids.

2) People with very high human capital who are trying to either make it as financially profitable as possible or trying to build up a resume (which is another way to accumulate human capital - work experience). Think for instance academics, consultants, investment bankers, some software developers, etc. It's not irrational to work 75 hours a week in McKinsey if you are making $170k starting with only a MA and no managerial responsibilities at all, since not only you are being paid fairly well but also you will be able to be very competitive when you get tired of it and look for your next job (e.g. a relatively well paying government job).
#15167642
wat0n wrote:2) People with very high human capital who are trying to either make it as financially profitable as possible or trying to build up a resume (which is another way to accumulate human capital - work experience). Think for instance academics, consultants, investment bankers, some software developers, etc. It's not irrational to work 75 hours a week in McKinsey if you are making $170k starting with only a MA and no managerial responsibilities at all, since not only you are being paid fairly well but also you will be able to be very competitive when you get tired of it and look for your next job (e.g. a relatively well paying government job).


This reminds me of the phrase. Entrepreneurs work 80 hours, so that they don't have to work 40. Cheesy, but funny.

wat0n wrote:1) People who have little capital (material and human) who also face a high dependency ratio in their household. Think of the single mother doing 3 minimum wage jobs because she has 4 kids.


Yea, this makes sense. Both my parents worked two jobs while I was growing up. My dad also attended trade school too. They were putting numerous hours. Never saw them on the weekdays.
#15167649
This came up in another thread. Here's one of my LinkedIn Pet peeves

The person that posts shit like this:

"I'm a mother, CEO, athlete, wife, daughter, artist......." then they proceed to talk about how great they are because they manage to cram so much shit into their lives. This shit distills life down into chasing busyness and titles basically. I always want to respond to those posts with "STOP AND SMELL THE FUCKING ROSES SISTER! LIFE IS PASSING YOU BY! YOU'RE TOO BUSY!"

I hate this shit because it sets up this expectation, that if you are not oversubscribing your life/time, that you are a not living. I'm using a woman as an example, but guys are doing this dumb shit too.

This and all the fake ass CEOs on linkedin annoy the shit out of me. Everyone is over-glorifying themselves.

The other thing I hate is "Engineering twitter". I'm sure you guys have heard of "Black twitter". There is also "Engineering twitter" and it's fucking annoying. BUnch of dip shits all wishing and acting they are these great visionary tech leaders and shit. SHUT THE FUCK UP!!

I hate it when I'm asked what my twitter handle is, and then I say "I don't remember, I have twitter, but don't remember my handle"... they are just shocked. :lol: FUck engineering twitter. FUck you people, I'm here to get paid. :lol: If I didn't have to work, I wouldn't. I'd be playing guitar and video games all day. Taking walks/hikes, and traveling.
#15167652
If the goal is to reduce the amount of work that people are forced to do because of cultural expectations, then we need two separate solutions for the two groups that @wat0n mentioned.

The obvious answer for group one is a UBI. On a side note, this seems like a good answer for a lot of things.

And I am not sure we even need an answer for number two. These folks seem like they want to do it and it does not hurt anyone.
#15167654
Rancid wrote:This came up in another thread. Here's one of my LinkedIn Pet peeves

The person that posts shit like this:

"I'm a mother, CEO, athlete, wife, daughter, artist......." then they proceed to talk about how great they are because they manage to cram so much shit into their lives. This shit distills life down into chasing busyness and titles basically. I always want to respond to those posts with "STOP AND SMELL THE FUCKING ROSES SISTER! LIFE IS PASSING YOU BY! YOU'RE TOO BUSY!"

I hate this shit because it sets up this expectation, that if you are not oversubscribing your life/time, that you are a not living. I'm using a woman as an example, but guys are doing this dumb shit too.

This and all the fake ass CEOs on linkedin annoy the shit out of me. Everyone is over-glorifying themselves.

The other thing I hate is "Engineering twitter". I'm sure you guys have heard of "Black twitter". There is also "Engineering twitter" and it's fucking annoying. BUnch of dip shits all wishing and acting they are these great visionary tech leaders and shit. SHUT THE FUCK UP!!

I hate it when I'm asked what my twitter handle is, and then I say "I don't remember, I have twitter, but don't remember my handle"... they are just shocked. :lol: FUck engineering twitter. FUck you people, I'm here to get paid. :lol: If I didn't have to work, I wouldn't. I'd be playing guitar and video games all day. Taking walks/hikes, and traveling.

I hate when people flex about anything. I hate people obsessed about appearance or what people think of them. I hate social climbers. I hate shopping for clothes, I hate clothes that cost $300 but cost $20 to make, I hate instagram, I hate selfies, I don't care what car you drive, I'm not impressed with your BMW or Audi, or your sweet watch, or your income. The only thing I care about is how you treat me and other people.
#15167656
Rancid wrote:I agree that American culture glorifies work a bit way too much. However, if you want overwork obsession, I ask you to look at India, Korea, Japan. The Indians I work with always laugh when they hear things like "Americans work too much." This is probably why educated koreans, indians, etc. do so well in America.

By western standards, Americans overwork, by global standards, they do not.


Yes, but many Americans are stuck with living off of bad wages Rancid. This Wyoming bit is interesting:



It is not India Rancid. It is average workers.
#15167658
Unthinking Majority wrote:I hate when people flex about anything. I hate people obsessed about appearance or what people think of them. I hate social climbers. I hate shopping for clothes, I hate clothes that cost $300 but cost $20 to make, I hate instagram, I hate selfies, I don't care what car you drive, I'm not impressed with your BMW or Audi, or your sweet watch, or your income. The only thing I care about is how you treat me and other people.


Hmm. That is a lot of hating. I say switch it around. Be positive. Love.

I love the Birds chirping here in the morning. I love the breeze with a soft caress in the evenings, I love my pretty paintings on the wall featuring Yucatecan life, I love my furniture, and my earrings, I love the sound of my little son hugging me and saying "I love you so much Mommy". I love helping my neighbors, and seeing people enjoying their families on Sundays.

I love the peace and quiet on Sundays when everyone is only worried about what to make for dinner.
#15167659
Rancid wrote: :lol: :D :)

I know you are joking, but fuck the grind. :lol:

Like my father always says... you work and then you die. :knife:

I feel like the 5 day work week is utter bullshit with how much unpaid work is done outside of work hours. Something that always fucked with me during school was homework and how they imposed on my time outside of classroom hours. My thought is make it fit into the school day, maybe even increase the school day but don't fuck with my free time! Now I'm an adult and see how there's always something getting at you, even if it isn't work but that does create a huge pressure on other responsibilities.
#15167662
Pants-of-dog wrote:If the goal is to reduce the amount of work that people are forced to do because of cultural expectations, then we need two separate solutions for the two groups that @wat0n mentioned.

The obvious answer for group one is a UBI. On a side note, this seems like a good answer for a lot of things.


I'd use conditional cash transfers instead of an UBI for group 1. The mother may still work 3 jobs and keep the UBI money anyway.

Instead, I'd give them the following deal: Keep your children healthy (with their vaccines up to date for instance), performing minimally well in school (not engaging in truancy, passing their courses) and/or out of trouble (without criminal records), and you'll get a large payment from the government, one large enough that is profitable to you to just work a single job. After all, not just the mother but society at large benefits from having healthy children, who succeed in school and don't engage in crime so it's fair that it shares the costs of her child-raising effort.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And I am not sure we even need an answer for number two. These folks seem like they want to do it and it does not hurt anyone.


In many cases it benefits society, for instance doctors can work long hours yet they are fulfilling an important public role.
#15167663
Tainari88 wrote:Yes, but many Americans are stuck with living off of bad wages Rancid. This Wyoming bit is interesting:


True true. Also, many of them aren't even getting the hours they want.

As I said, there are all sorts of issues with work and wages in America. We all know this. Still, by global standards, on average, Americans are not overworked relative to many other parts of the world. What I find is that Americans are much more obsessed with creating the image of hardwork, and #LoveTheGrind kind of bullshit. Which, I do believe is insidious. It could push many people to start overworking due to the "keeping up with the joneses" effect social media has on people.
#15167664
Tainari88 wrote:Hmm. That is a lot of hating. I say switch it around. Be positive. Love.

I love the Birds chirping here in the morning. I love the breeze with a soft caress in the evenings, I love my pretty paintings on the wall featuring Yucatecan life, I love my furniture, and my earrings, I love the sound of my little son hugging me and saying "I love you so much Mommy". I love helping my neighbors, and seeing people enjoying their families on Sundays.

I love the peace and quiet on Sundays when everyone is only worried about what to make for dinner.

I don't actually hate them. They just annoy me. Some people have good values, some people have values that aren't good for society.
#15167668
Wellsy wrote:Like my father always says... you work and then you die. :knife:

I feel like the 5 day work week is utter bullshit with how much unpaid work is done outside of work hours. Something that always fucked with me during school was homework and how they imposed on my time outside of classroom hours. My thought is make it fit into the school day, maybe even increase the school day but don't fuck with my free time! Now I'm an adult and see how there's always something getting at you, even if it isn't work but that does create a huge pressure on other responsibilities.


You hit on something very significant though. It's the burden you have to take home after the work day. It's often very hard to shake off, and very often, you never shake it off. Often, people will put in their 9-5 hours, but then work more when they get home because they simply cannot turn it off.
#15167672
wat0n wrote:I'd use conditional cash transfers instead of an UBI for group 1. The mother may still work 3 jobs and keep the UBI money anyway.

Instead, I'd give them the following deal: Keep your children healthy (with their vaccines up to date for instance), performing minimally well in school (not engaging in truancy, passing their courses) and/or out of trouble (without criminal records), and you'll get a large payment from the government, one large enough that is profitable to you to just work a single job. After all, not just the mother but society at large benefits from having healthy children, who succeed in school and don't engage in crime so it's fair that it shares the costs of her child-raising effort.


So if a kid does poorly in school because of, for example, undiagnosed learning disabilities or mental illness, the government should punish the mother by taking away her financial support.

That would be a common outcome. I will assume that you do not actually want that.

In many cases it benefits society, for instance doctors can work long hours yet they are fulfilling an important public role.


Maybe. I would be worried about them making mistakes from being too tired.
#15167676
Pants-of-dog wrote:So if a kid does poorly in school because of, for example, undiagnosed learning disabilities or mental illness, the government should punish the mother by taking away her financial support.

That would be a common outcome. I will assume that you do not actually want that.


There can be mitigating circumstances, for sure. In that case, the government may have schools specialized for those cases or schools can use a different scale for those children.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Maybe. I would be worried about them making mistakes from being too tired.


Indeed, but that's why there are turns. It seems that it is more less well-known how long they can be before they do more harm than good.
#15167679
wat0n wrote:There can be mitigating circumstances, for sure. In that case, the government may have schools specialized for those cases or schools can use a different scale for those children.


So are you also supporting a system where all children get tested for various mental illnesses and learning disorders, as well as additional funding for schools to help these kids?

In general, I would assume that this additional funding would help alleviate economic concerns for overworked parents.
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