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By Pants-of-dog
#15174889
wat0n wrote:Thankfully I did the former :)


No.

Reads like a grocery shopping list to me. Who has a better engineering workplace experience, that disabled Black female engineer or the poor white male high school dropout that works cleaning the toilets at the office?


It does not read like a grocery list at all. In fact, it contradicts your claim and supports the idea that ths is not a grocery list of discrete units but instead a com0lex web of issues that cannot be separated from context.

Depends on the social problem we're talking about. Racism is by itself a social problem, but it's far from being the only one.


Since you are not answering the question, I will assume you agree that racism is caused more by societal structures and cultural assumptions than by individual and psychological factors.

And yet in practice CR theorists disregard all other possible causes and indeed some may even call you names for pointing out that, no, not every social problem is about racism (or sexism or other forms of discrimination).


I doubt it.

Can you provide an example of this?

You were asking if "structural racism" (a construct you have yet to define and whose existence you have yet to prove) exerts and maintains its power through the law. Yet that flies on its face when one considers the very existence of anti-discrimination law and things like affirmative action.


I asked you to support your claim that the only relationship between law and racism is anti-discrimination law.

You did not support this claim at all.

Actually you are the one who has to prove that the US supports racism through its laws. I think the Civil Rights Act amounted to the dismantling of such a system, if you believe it still exists, then go on and prove so.

Name the law, cite from it and depending on what you find we'll be able to continue the discussion.


And you have not supported this claim either.

I suggest you make a clear and specific criticism of this aspect of CRT theory and then support it with evidence.
By wat0n
#15174894
Pants-of-dog wrote:No.


Yes.

Pants-of-dog wrote:It does not read like a grocery list at all. In fact, it contradicts your claim and supports the idea that ths is not a grocery list of discrete units but instead a com0lex web of issues that cannot be separated from context.


Sure, just like you can't bake your cake if you don't buy all the ingredients. Again, a grocery list.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Since you are not answering the question, I will assume you agree that racism is caused more by societal structures and cultural assumptions than by individual and psychological factors.


As I said, mention the problem and we'll discuss it. I don't think for example that the problem of dealing with the consequences of climate change is primarily social or cultural at all. It's not individual or psychological either.

Pants-of-dog wrote:I doubt it.

Can you provide an example of this?


Don't you recall the whole shtick here when we discussed the George Floyd case? I quite clearly recall accusations of racism flying around there.

Pants-of-dog wrote:I asked you to support your claim that the only relationship between law and racism is anti-discrimination law.

You did not support this claim at all.


That's not what I claimed. I simply answered your original question in the negative.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And you have not supported this claim either.

I suggest you make a clear and specific criticism of this aspect of CRT theory and then support it with evidence.


No, first you mention what laws you consider to be racist, cite the parts of it that would support this position and then we can discuss the issue on its merits.

I already gave you supporting evidence commensurate to the quality of your argumentation.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15174897
Pants-of-dog wrote:
Yes, there is often such a spectrum.


People do not achieve in exactly the same manner when they have equal opportunity. Some people take better advantage of opportunity because they put in a greater individual effort.

Is that the definition of equality are you using here?

Yes, equal oportunity does not lead to equal results. This is something that CRT people do not understand and hence they cry systemic racism.

If so, do you agree that this is different from the definition of equality used when discussing rights in society? Yes or no?


Tell me which rights under the law whites have that BIPOC types do not have. Give me some examples of rights white people have that are denied to BIPOC. Be specific please.


Instead, you were discussing your opinion of people you think believe in CRT. It is not an intelligent criticism of CRT.


I can only react to the words to type POD. You provided a definition of CRT and I destroyed it. It was rather easy.

This seems like a criticism of the Wiki article and not a criticism of CRT.


You posted the article POD, so I assume you agree with it.

From your article: Intersectional theory: The examination of race, sex, class, national origin, and sexual orientation, and how their combination (i.e., their intersections) plays out in various settings, e.g., how the needs of a Latina female are different from those of a black male and whose needs are the ones promoted.[32]


CRT seeks to divide victims into a nearly infinite number of groups where there is a common enemy is whiteness. The problem with this victimhood theory is that eventually near 100% of non-whites can seek victimhood. It also makes 100% of white people racist which is in fact what CRT types say.

No, when we say that something is more important than individual choices, we are assuming that individual choices are real and have a real impact.

How come CRT leaders never talk about the abysmal lack of personal responsibility in POC. One would think this is important to move people out of poverty.

It is just that we also assume that other causes are even more important.

The problem is multifactorial and not related to the single variable of racism. That is why Jamaican immigrants do much better than American Blacks in the USA. Jamaicans are responsible and understand individual actions or effort.

Do you agree or disagree with the idea that “social problems are influenced and created more by societal structures and cultural assumptions than by individual and psychological factors”?


Is the other way around POD. Individual effort is much more important.

So you think that the racism supported by legal structures is a western value that must be protected. If that is your problem with CRT (that it attacks your precious western racism), then we have different ideas about what is a problem.


What laws support racism? Be specific.

Are you saying that CRT is wrong and that law does not support racism?


Which are the laws that specifically damage BIPOC types? Be specific.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15174902
late wrote:
Where I differ from the author is I am quite aware that the racists know they are wrong, know that it is nothing more than propaganda, and have an evil intent.

Do you actually believe conservatives and Republicans wake up every day with the idea to oppress BIPOC? I asked before. What do Republicans gain by having massive poverty, unemployment, and high crime among BIPOC? NOTHING. Who benefits from the BIPOC despair? The Left!!!!
By late
#15174982
wat0n wrote:
No, all you have to do is to name the law. It would also be more productive if you want to dismantle the system of oppression you're so concerned about.



So you don't know what CRT is.

Why am I not surprised..

While most of Jim Crow was dismantled, most of the damage remains.

Even worse, Republicans are trying to bring Jim Crow back. Desgregation stopped in 1989; we've been segregating. There is a massive effort keep Blacks and Dems from winning elections.

After the fall of the USSR, West Germany invested massive amounts of money to fix East Germany. We need to do something similar.
By wat0n
#15174989
late wrote:So you don't know what CRT is.

Why am I not surprised..

While most of Jim Crow was dismantled, most of the damage remains.

Even worse, Republicans are trying to bring Jim Crow back. Desgregation stopped in 1989; we've been segregating. There is a massive effort keep Blacks and Dems from winning elections.

After the fall of the USSR, West Germany invested massive amounts of money to fix East Germany. We need to do something similar.


So will you mention the laws that you believe need to be changed to make progress? I don't care about whatever definition you believe CRT has, but being about law it makes sense to look at the latter.
By Pants-of-dog
#15174995
wat0n wrote:Yes.

Sure, just like you can't bake your cake if you don't buy all the ingredients. Again, a grocery list.

As I said, mention the problem and we'll discuss it. I don't think for example that the problem of dealing with the consequences of climate change is primarily social or cultural at all. It's not individual or psychological either.

Don't you recall the whole shtick here when we discussed the George Floyd case? I quite clearly recall accusations of racism flying around there.

That's not what I claimed. I simply answered your original question in the negative.

No, first you mention what laws you consider to be racist, cite the parts of it that would support this position and then we can discuss the issue on its merits.

I already gave you supporting evidence commensurate to the quality of your argumentation.


Since none of this supports any argument or provides any intelligent criticism of CRT, this conversation is done. Thank you.

———————

Julian658 wrote:People do not achieve in exactly the same manner when they have equal opportunity. Some people take better advantage of opportunity because they put in a greater individual effort.


Sure?

Does this mean you should have less rights than others?

Yes, equal oportunity does not lead to equal results. This is something that CRT people do not understand and hence they cry systemic racism.


So you are arguing that systemic racism is impossible because you are less capable at things than others. That makes no sense.

Tell me which rights under the law whites have that BIPOC types do not have. Give me some examples of rights white people have that are denied to BIPOC. Be specific please.


The right to be arrested for passing what might be a counterfeit twenty without being killed.

From your article: Intersectional theory: The examination of race, sex, class, national origin, and sexual orientation, and how their combination (i.e., their intersections) plays out in various settings, e.g., how the needs of a Latina female are different from those of a black male and whose needs are the ones promoted.[32]


CRT seeks to divide victims into a nearly infinite number of groups where there is a common enemy is whiteness. The problem with this victimhood theory is that eventually near 100% of non-whites can seek victimhood. It also makes 100% of white people racist which is in fact what CRT types say.


Strawman.

How come CRT leaders never talk about the abysmal lack of personal responsibility in POC. One would think this is important to move people out of poverty.


Please provide evidence for this claim, that people who think CRT is real never discuss personal responsibility.

The problem is multifactorial and not related to the single variable of racism. That is why Jamaican immigrants do much better than American Blacks in the USA. Jamaicans are responsible and understand individual actions or effort.


So you agree with CRT that there are multiple causes of differing importance.

Is the other way around POD. Individual effort is much more important.


Prove it.

What laws support racism? Be specific.


Current drug laws, the three felony strike thing, not letting felons vote, no knock warrants, and a host of others.

Which are the laws that specifically damage BIPOC types? Be specific.


I will take that as a “no”.
By wat0n
#15174996
Pants-of-dog wrote:Since none of this supports any argument or provides any intelligent criticism of CRT, this conversation is done. Thank you.


You mean since you can't back your claims up, you are now unceremoniously leaving the conversation and pretend, as usual, that your interlocutor didn't disarm your nonsense as you always do?

Will you finally post whatever US laws you consider to be racist, citing the articles that would support this position?
By late
#15174997
Pants-of-dog wrote:
Since none of this supports any argument or provides any intelligent criticism of CRT, this conversation is done. Thank you.



Good point.
By Pants-of-dog
#15174998
Another very good example of racism and law is Voter ID laws and the other voting laws that Republicans have put in place to prevent BIPOC people from voting.
By late
#15175000
Pants-of-dog wrote:
Another very good example of racism and law is Voter ID laws and the other voting laws that Republicans have put in place to prevent BIPOC people from voting.



They know.

What they are doing is bog standard Right wing passive/aggressive sleaze.
By Pants-of-dog
#15175002
late wrote:They know.

What they are doing is bog standard Right wing passive/aggressive sleaze.


If you poke them enough, they sometimes say something that leads to an interesting Google search.
By wat0n
#15175005
Pants-of-dog wrote:Another very good example of racism and law is Voter ID laws and the other voting laws that Republicans have put in place to prevent BIPOC people from voting.


Go on, further make your case. Can their issues be addressed in other ways, such as making getting IDs free?

Care to explain if voter ID laws are racist in other countries where they are common? Can you vote in, say, a Chilean election if you don't have an ID?
By Pants-of-dog
#15175024
wat0n wrote:Go on, further make your case.


https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.117 ... 3X18810012

    Abstract
    Over 40 states have considered voter identification laws in recent years, with several adopting laws requiring voters to show a valid ID before they cast a ballot. We argue that such laws have a disenfranchising affect on racial and ethnic minorities, who are less likely than Whites to possess a valid ID. Leveraging a unique national dataset, we offer a comprehensive portrait of who does and does not have access to a valid piece of voter identification. We find clear evidence that people of color are less likely to have an ID. Moreover, these disparities persist after controlling for a host of relevant covariates.

Can their issues be addressed in other ways, such as making getting IDs free?


Possible options to resolve this racism do not refute the racism. Instead, they affirm that racism is a problem and offer solutions.

Care to explain if voter ID laws are racist in other countries where they are common? Can you vote in, say, a Chilean election if you don't have an ID?


If your point is that voter ID laws can be used in ways that are not racist in other countries, I would agree. That does not change the fact that it is racist in the USA.
By wat0n
#15175029
Pants-of-dog wrote:Possible options to resolve this racism do not refute the racism. Instead, they affirm that racism is a problem and offer solutions.


So for example, the fact that Black people are also less likely to be able to get a driver's license (after all, it's a form of ID too, one that is in fact the most commonly used form of ID in many states) means that driver licenses are racist? Would you let people drive without proving they know how to do so only because of this disparity?

Pants-of-dog wrote:If your point is that voter ID laws can be used in ways that are not racist in other countries, I would agree. That does not change the fact that it is racist in the USA.


It would be if no remedy was provided. So why not condition the support for those voter ID laws on making IDs free? You don't even need to be physically present in an office to get one (I know this because I got my EAD without ever doing so, you would just need to send the form and the passport photo using the USPS. This specific task could also be free of charge).

If the states refused, you'd have a much stronger case about the nature of these laws, and would likely be struck in Federal courts by relying on their legislative history. But I've never heard this simple compromise solution being put on the table. And it has more benefits than just voting as IDs are useful for more than just that.

Of course, if this has already been put on the table in the past and you can find case law showing courts, including the SCOTUS, don't care about state refusals to provide remedies I'm more than willing to revise my views. Has it?
By Pants-of-dog
#15175031
wat0n wrote:So for example, the fact that Black people are also less likely to be able to get a driver's license (after all, it's a form of ID too, one that is in fact the most commonly used form of ID in many states) means that driver licenses are racist? Would you let people drive without proving they know how to do so only because of this disparity?


No, and no, and I assume you agree that voter ID laws have a significant and disproportionately negative impact on BIPOC people.

It would be if no remedy was provided. So why not condition the support for those voter ID laws on making IDs free? You don't even need to be physically present in an office to get one (I know this because I got my EAD without ever doing so, you would just need to send the form and the passport photo using the USPS. This specific task could also be free of charge).


Voter ID laws are a real thing. Your possible solutions are not. So at this point in time, there.is a racist impact.

If the states refused, you'd have a much stronger case about the nature of these laws, and would likely be struck in Federal courts by relying on their legislative history. But I've never heard this simple compromise solution being put on the table. And it has more benefits than just voting as IDs are useful for more than just that.

Of course, if this has already been put on the table in the past and you can find case law showing courts, including the SCOTUS, don't care about state refusals to provide remedies I'm more than willing to revise my views. Has it?


Are you asking me for actual evidence that the states have refused to enact your imaginary proposal?
User avatar
By Julian658
#15175033
Pants-of-dog wrote:https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1532673X18810012


If your point is that voter ID laws can be used in ways that are not racist in other countries, I would agree. That does not change the fact that it is racist in the USA.

To assume black people are not smart enough to obtain an ID is racist to the core POD.
By Pants-of-dog
#15175034
@Julian658

Then it is a good thing I never assumed that.
By wat0n
#15175036
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, and no, and I assume you agree that voter ID laws have a significant and disproportionately negative impact on BIPOC people.


No and no what, and why?

Pants-of-dog wrote:Voter ID laws are a real thing. Your possible solutions are not. So at this point in time, there.is a racist impact.


A real thing whose racist motivations you cannot prove.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Are you asking me for actual evidence that the states have refused to enact your imaginary proposal?


Yes, if that proposal has never put on the table then your allegations have never been put to test.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15175038
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, and no, and I assume you agree that voter ID laws have a significant and disproportionately negative impact on BIPOC people.



Racist view POD.
Watch the video and see the people that are like you. They assume black people do not know enough to get an ID.
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