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By wat0n
#15175087
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

I will not be addressing anything unclear.

Please provide evidence that CRT assumes that it is impossible for people to simply not want identification allowing them to vote.


You can tell by its believers' claim that these voting ID laws are motivated by racism, without providing alternatives such as the one I mentioned (making IDs free of charge).
By Pants-of-dog
#15175088
@wat0n

The reason voter ID laws are discussed and your solution is not discussed is because voter ID laws are real and your proposed solutions are not.

But you are implying that the lawmakers would not have been racist had they also provided free ID. Since they did not, it is fair to say that voter ID laws caused a disproportionately negative impact on BIPOC voters.
By wat0n
#15175089
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

The reason voter ID laws are discussed and your solution is not discussed is because voter ID laws are real and your proposed solutions are not.

But you are implying that the lawmakers would not have been racist had they also provided free ID. Since they did not, it is fair to say that voter ID laws caused a disproportionately negative impact on BIPOC voters.


Why didn't the CRT-believing lawmakers propose that? In fact, why don't believers in CRT propose free IDs for everyone?
By Pants-of-dog
#15175090
The recent banning of CRT in Oklahoma means that teachers in Tulsa cannot teach about the massacre of Black people that occurred there on this day 100 years ago.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15175101
Pants-of-dog wrote:This is a different question.

Yes, we can also say that the disproportionately onerous obstacles for BIPOC people (in terms of getting a driver’s license) also has a racist impact in terms of being able to legally drive with a permit.


Should the states administer an "easier to pass driving test" to POC to avoid racism?



Well, that is not what is happening today.

Ohio is also engaging in government censorship of CRT.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/ohi ... n-schools/

POD

Indoctrination of children in public schools is shameful. CRT is political indoctrination.
Schools are supposed to teach the basic curriculum and nothing else.
By Pants-of-dog
#15175155
Julian658 wrote:Should the states administer an "easier to pass driving test" to POC to avoid racism?


No. That would be stupid since it would not address the actual obstacles to getting ID and it would reduce everyone’s safety

POD

Indoctrination of children in public schools is shameful. CRT is political indoctrination.
Schools are supposed to teach the basic curriculum and nothing else.


Yes, this is the exact reason why conservatives support this censorship.
By wat0n
#15175157
Pants-of-dog wrote:No. That would be stupid since it would not address the actual obstacles to getting ID and it would reduce everyone’s safety


Which are those actual obstacles to getting IDs?
By late
#15175158
There is an easy fix that works. Automatically register everyone when they hit voting age. It's actually in the Dem voting bill, which has a bunch of other ways to clean up voting.

Which is why Republicans hate it.
By Pants-of-dog
#15175159
wat0n wrote:Which are those actual obstacles to getting IDs?


You would have to look at some of the studies, I assume.

One is lack of access to DMV offices, which are often hard to get to and not open often.

Another is the lack of street addresses on many Indigenous reservations.

Cost. Plain and simple.

Some states specify which IDs are valid to disenfranchise specific groups. Texas allows concealed weapons permits but not student IDs, for example.
By wat0n
#15175163
Pants-of-dog wrote:You would have to look at some of the studies, I assume.

One is lack of access to DMV offices, which are often hard to get to and not open often.

Another is the lack of street addresses on many Indigenous reservations.

Cost. Plain and simple.

Some states specify which IDs are valid to disenfranchise specific groups. Texas allows concealed weapons permits but not student IDs, for example.


Fair. So then making IDs free and allowing to do send everything by mail would go long ways to solve the problem, wouldn't it? For instance, the issue of driver's licenses vs student ID would be moot by eliminating cost (financial and commuting) from the equation.

The only thing beyond that I guess would be the lack of street addresses in some reservations, although IIRC it's the reservation's responsibility to sort that out as it wishes.

Of course what would be gained would be that it would be harder to pull a Trump and question the election results, and one way to do it would be to set a system very much like that in other countries. And there are other advantages unrelated to voting in making sure the population has an ID card too.

Wouldn't all of this be more productive than what's being done right now? Wouldn't this be a compromise solution that would leave all sides satisfied? :?:
By late
#15175164
wat0n wrote:
Of course what would be gained would be that it would be harder to pull a Trump and question the election results, and one way to do it would be to set a system very much like that in other countries.




Countries with clean elections invariably have strong nonpartisan voting authorities.

That Dem bill would clean up our elections to the point where they would pass muster.

Which is why Republicans hate and fear it.
By wat0n
#15175165
late wrote:Countries with clean elections invariably have strong nonpartisan voting authorities.

That Dem bill would clean up our elections to the point where they would pass muster.

Which is why Republicans hate and fear it.


What Dem bill are you talking about? :?:

Having nonpartisan commissions is one way, another one is to actually put all parties in it and let them sort the thing out - then the commission is "nonsinglepartisan". What should not be done, of course, is to have a single political party control electoral commissions as it happened in e.g. Venezuela.

OTOH, are state electoral authorities all THAT partisan? I mean, for instance I couldn't help noting that in the whole GA affair the fight was between Trump and the state's Republican government standing by the work of its own electoral commission.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15175166
Pants-of-dog wrote:No. That would be stupid since it would not address the actual obstacles to getting ID and it would reduce everyone’s safety


What are the obstacles that prevent black people to have a driver's license? Are the obstacles racist in nature? Please be specific.

Yes, this is the exact reason why conservatives support this censorship.


POD: Public schools in black neighborhoods run by a black mayor and black city council have been teaching social justice to the children for decades. This has lowered academic scores and the schools remain incredibly bad. This technique keeps black students behind others. Schools should teach academics, nothing else. Just as religion, there is no place in schools for the teaching of political views.
Last edited by Julian658 on 01 Jun 2021 17:56, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15175168
late wrote:There is an easy fix that works. Automatically register everyone when they hit voting age. It's actually in the Dem voting bill, which has a bunch of other ways to clean up voting.

Which is why Republicans hate it.

Republicans simply want to avoid another Venezuela Late.
By late
#15175170
wat0n wrote:
What Dem bill are you talking about? :?:

Having nonpartisan commissions is one way, another one is to actually put all parties in it and let them sort the thing out - then the commission is "nonsinglepartisan". What should not be done, of course, is to have a single political party control electoral commissions as it happened in e.g. Venezuela.

OTOH, are state electoral authorities all THAT partisan? I mean, for instance I couldn't help noting that in the whole GA affair the fight was between Trump and the state's Republican government standing by the work of its own electoral commission.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_the_People_Act

The only thing that would work for us is a strictly nonpartisan voting authority. We actually used to force countries to build nonpartisan voting authorities. The world was rolling on the floor laughing at us, in 2000, when they found out how corrupt the shiny beacon of democracy really was.
By wat0n
#15175171
late wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_the_People_Act

The only thing that would work for us is a strictly nonpartisan voting authority. We actually used to force countries to build nonpartisan voting authorities. The world was rolling on the floor laughing at us, in 2000, when they found out how corrupt the shiny beacon of democracy really was.


Most of that is reasonable, although the voting authorities would still consist of Democrats and Republicans, even if they would include independents (what would happen with smaller parties though?)
By late
#15175175
wat0n wrote:
Most of that is reasonable, although the voting authorities would still consist of Democrats and Republicans, even if they would include independents (what would happen with smaller parties though?)



You get a job with the Feds, it comes with strict limits on what you can do politically. You'd want to beef that up with stricter limits and long prison sentences; for the new voting authority.

Having said that, I get the impression the Dem bill relies more on passing laws that require Republicans to play nice.
By Pants-of-dog
#15175176
wat0n wrote:Fair. So then making IDs free and allowing to do send everything by mail would go long ways to solve the problem, wouldn't it? For instance, the issue of driver's licenses vs student ID would be moot by eliminating cost (financial and commuting) from the equation.

The only thing beyond that I guess would be the lack of street addresses in some reservations, although IIRC it's the reservation's responsibility to sort that out as it wishes.

Of course what would be gained would be that it would be harder to pull a Trump and question the election results, and one way to do it would be to set a system very much like that in other countries. And there are other advantages unrelated to voting in making sure the population has an ID card too.

Wouldn't all of this be more productive than what's being done right now? Wouldn't this be a compromise solution that would leave all sides satisfied? :?:


Possibly, but possibly not.

Since none of these solutions are real while voter ID laws and other legal methods of disenfranchising BIPOC people are real, we can see that right now the racism is based on legal systems and policies as CRT claims.

The fact that your solutions are almost all policy changes also corroborates the argument of CRT that systemic causes are responsible for racism in many cases.
By wat0n
#15175178
Pants-of-dog wrote:Possibly, but possibly not.

Since none of these solutions are real while voter ID laws and other legal methods of disenfranchising BIPOC people are real, we can see that right now the racism is based on legal systems and policies as CRT claims.


They are not real because no one makes the proposal as far as I'm aware. I also don't see how this is necessarily racist because, again, then driver's licenses are racist too since there are differences in the probability that a person will have one by race and the obstacles are the same since we're talking about the same document. Yet we don't abolish driver's licenses because of that, since there is a higher interest involved.

Pants-of-dog wrote:The fact that your solutions are almost all policy changes also corroborates the argument of CRT that systemic causes are responsible for racism in many cases.


It's also possible that even after doing all that, BIPOCs simply prefer not to get IDs and prefer not to vote as much as whites do.

But it's worth a try to see if that's the case, it's a relatively inexpensive policy anyway. So why don't CRT believers simply advocate for it?
By late
#15175181
wat0n wrote:

It's also possible...



No, we have history of voter suppression going back to the 1800s.
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