[ckaihatsu]

It's already there.

We always have extremists getting violent, and it's getting worse. If you were to ask me, I'd say we're not doing enough to make it possible for the republic to survive, or avoid a dramatic increase in violence.

'Republic' -- ?

You're obviously too beholden to the state -- you're a *statist*, even to the point of being willing to give up *civil rights*.

I think the state needs to get the fuck *out of the way* so that the *working class* can deal with the fascists.


Ideologies & Operations -- Left Centrifugalism

Spoiler: show

[wat0n]

Lol at marxists speaking of civil rights. Where are the civil rights of the population in countries like Cuba?

I also don't see anything wrong with catching potential terrorists for hire in the way the FBI is doing.

[ckaihatsu]

Lol at marxists speaking of civil rights. Where are the civil rights of the population in countries like Cuba?

What's the alleged offense?

I also don't see anything wrong with catching potential terrorists for hire in the way the FBI is doing.

It's problematic because you're becoming increasingly reliant on the state. Even if the FBI *did* shut down fascists -- which it certainly *didn't* do on January 6th -- would you be willing to let the government go to unlawful extents to do so? How do you know it would limit itself to the use of police-state tactics against only fascists?

Keep in mind that this is a *new* development -- historically the FBI has harassed and targeted black nationalists, Muslims, communists, etc. I for one am not going to suddenly start *cheerleading* for the government's protection racket, as you're doing.

[annatar1914]

Yeah, dialectics. Got it.

*My* political concern is that the societal 'software' -- capitalism and private property relations -- doesn't match the 'hardware', meaning the world of overproductive mass industrial production that floods the world with goods and services but uses *exchange values* as a prerequisite for the *accessing* of such production.

@ckaihatsu ,

Absolutely. Nail on the head. We may not have all the answers, but at least we're asking some of the right questions.

[ckaihatsu]

*My* political concern is that the societal 'software' -- capitalism and private property relations -- doesn't match the 'hardware', meaning the world of overproductive mass industrial production that floods the world with goods and services but uses *exchange values* as a prerequisite for the *accessing* of such production.

@ckaihatsu ,

Absolutely. Nail on the head. We may not have all the answers, but at least we're asking some of the right questions.

Good to hear.

I'll immodestly include my latest, which is a material-economic treatment:

What about this economic 'nightmare' scenario: Everyone issues their own debt, endlessly, and unregulated by anyone else, or any institutions -- much of the modern world is ad-hoc, anyway, so people make and break relationships strictly based on 'going-forward', socially, economically, and politically.

Would it be better to wear a suit, than not? Would it be better to use cash, or to just issue new personal debt, since one could, that's not backed by anything. Limitless personal debt could even undermine *cash*, since governmental authority would no longer be needed to uphold a currency regime, and currency values.

viewtopic.php?p=15178026#p15178026

[wat0n]

What's the alleged offense?

How many people have been disappeared there so far?

It's problematic because you're becoming increasingly reliant on the state. Even if the FBI *did* shut down fascists -- which it certainly *didn't* do on January 6th -- would you be willing to let the government go to unlawful extents to do so? How do you know it would limit itself to the use of police-state tactics against only fascists?

Keep in mind that this is a *new* development -- historically the FBI has harassed and targeted black nationalists, Muslims, communists, etc. I for one am not going to suddenly start *cheerleading* for the government's protection racket, as you're doing.

How do you know it's unlawful? In reality, all the defenses by those who have been caught by the FBI have been rejected by the courts.

Also, again, since when do communists do not rely on the state to catch would be terrorists for hire? In fact, they go well beyond just that...

[ckaihatsu]

How many people have been disappeared there so far?

You tell me.

How do you know it's unlawful? In reality, all the defenses by those who have been caught by the FBI have been rejected by the courts.

So the FBI always wins -- is that it?

Or would you like to make up your *own* mind about it -- ?

The purported rationale for this unconstitutional surveillance is captured in a 2007 NYPD Intelligence Division report titled “Radicalization in the West: The Homegrown Threat.” The report claims to identify a “radicalization process” by which individuals turn into terrorists – a “process” so broad that it seems to treat with suspicion anyone who identifies as Muslim, harbors Islamic beliefs, or engages in Islamic religious practices. For example, its purported radicalization “indicators” include First Amendment-protected activities including “wearing traditional Islamic clothing [and] growing a beard,” abstaining from alcohol, and “becoming involved in social activism.”

https://www.aclu.org/other/factsheet-ny ... ce-program

---

Also, again, since when do communists do not rely on the state to catch would be terrorists for hire? In fact, they go well beyond just that...

Pretty vague, as usual. Would you like to *back up* those contentions with anything concrete, or do you think that you can just carelessly assert *anything* and have people take you seriously -- ?

But, hey, I'll play along -- so how *do* communists rely on the state, exactly?

[ckaihatsu]

COINTELPRO (syllabic abbreviation derived from Counter Intelligence Program) (1956–1971) was a series of covert and illegal[1][2] projects conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) aimed at surveilling, infiltrating, discrediting, and disrupting domestic American political organizations.[3][4] FBI records show COINTELPRO resources targeted groups and individuals the FBI deemed subversive,[5] including feminist organizations,[6] the Communist Party USA,[7] anti–Vietnam War organizers, activists of the civil rights movement or Black Power movement (e.g. Martin Luther King Jr., the Nation of Islam, and the Black Panther Party), environmentalist and animal rights organizations, the American Indian Movement (AIM), independence movements (such as Puerto Rican independence groups such as the Young Lords and the Puerto Rican Socialist Party), and a variety of organizations that were part of the broader New Left, and unrelated groups such as the Ku Klux Klan.[8]

In 1971 in San Diego, the FBI financed, armed, and controlled an extreme right-wing group of former members of the Minutemen anti-communist paramilitary organization, transforming it into a group called the Secret Army Organization that targeted groups, activists, and leaders involved in the Anti-War Movement, using both intimidation and violent acts.[9][10][11]

The FBI has used covert operations against domestic political groups since its inception; however, covert operations under the official COINTELPRO label took place between 1956 and 1971.[12] COINTELPRO tactics are still used to this day and have been alleged to include discrediting targets through psychological warfare; smearing individuals and groups using forged documents and by planting false reports in the media; harassment; wrongful imprisonment; and illegal violence, including assassination.[13][14][15][16] According to a Senate report, the FBI's motivation was "protecting national security, preventing violence, and maintaining the existing social and political order".[17]

Beginning in 1969, leaders of the Black Panther Party were targeted by the COINTELPRO and "neutralized" by being assassinated, imprisoned, publicly humiliated or falsely charged with crimes. Some of the Black Panthers targeted include Fred Hampton, Mark Clark, Zayd Shakur, Geronimo Pratt, Mumia Abu-Jamal,[18] and Marshall Conway. Common tactics used by COINTELPRO were perjury, witness harassment, witness intimidation, and withholding of exculpatory evidence.[19][20][21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

[wat0n]

You tell me.

The count stood at around 200 a few days ago if I'm not mistaken.

PS: Most recent count stands at 500

So the FBI always wins -- is that it?

Or would you like to make up your *own* mind about it -- ?

Please provide a ruling where the FBI was rebuffed and the suspect released.

Pretty vague, as usual. Would you like to *back up* those contentions with anything concrete, or do you think that you can just carelessly assert *anything* and have people take you seriously -- ?

But, hey, I'll play along -- so how *do* communists rely on the state, exactly?

By setting up gulags and physically destroying the enemies of the state. Which is far, far worse than anything the FBI has ever done.

Of course here I mean actual, historical communists, not the silly fantasies that only exist in your brain. I don't care about them and your usual no true Scotsman.

[ckaihatsu]

The count stood at around 200 a few days ago if I'm not mistaken.

PS: Most recent count stands at 500

So you're thinking like a hostage-swap, for those interned in Guantanamo Bay prison by the U.S. -- ?

Please provide a ruling where the FBI was rebuffed and the suspect released.

No need -- I'm not bound to *agree* with what the FBI has done.

By setting up gulags and physically destroying the enemies of the state. Which is far, far worse than anything the FBI has ever done.

Okay, like where?

Do you think COINTELPRO was a legitimate Executive Branch program? If so, what do you like about it?

Of course here I mean actual, historical communists, not the silly fantasies that only exist in your brain. I don't care about them and your usual no true Scotsman.

Yeah, again, I'm not here to help you out. If you can't provide concreteness to any claim you make, then *you're* the one fantasizing.

[wat0n]

So you're thinking like a hostage-swap, for those interned in Guantanamo Bay prison by the U.S. -- ?

No.

No need -- I'm not bound to *agree* with what the FBI has done.

Weird, I thought you said they were acting unlawfully.

Okay, like where?

Like in pretty much every communist regime.

Do you think COINTELPRO was a legitimate Executive Branch program? If so, what do you like about it?

No, and what I like about this is that it was exposed by another branch of government. Has the same ever happened in a communist regime like Cuba?

Yeah, again, I'm not here to help you out. If you can't provide concreteness to any claim you make, then *you're* the one fantasizing.

Where were the gulags located at?

[ckaihatsu]

No.



Weird, I thought you said they were acting unlawfully.



Like in pretty much every communist regime.



No, and what I like about this is that it was exposed by another branch of government. Has the same ever happened in a communist regime like Cuba?



Where were the gulags located at?

Huh! You're not even *addressing* what I'm saying, just so that you can *attack* from *your* point of view.

Maybe what's needed here is a side-by-side comparison -- a *rundown* of historical Western imperialist militarism and oppression.

Here's what I found:

United States

Main article: American imperialism

Made up of former colonies itself, the early United States expressed its opposition to Imperialism, at least in a form distinct from its own Manifest Destiny, through policies such as the Monroe Doctrine. However the US may have unsuccessfully attempted to capture Canada in the War of 1812. The United States achieved very significant territorial concessions from Mexico during the Mexican-American War. Beginning in the late 19th and early 20th century, policies such as Theodore Roosevelt’s interventionism in Central America and Woodrow Wilson’s mission to "make the world safe for democracy"[109] changed all this. They were often backed by military force, but were more often affected from behind the scenes. This is consistent with the general notion of hegemony and imperium of historical empires.[110][111] In 1898, Americans who opposed imperialism created the Anti-Imperialist League to oppose the US annexation of the Philippines and Cuba. One year later, a war erupted in the Philippines causing business, labor and government leaders in the US to condemn America's occupation in the Philippines as they also denounced them for causing the deaths of many Filipinos.[112] American foreign policy was denounced as a "racket" by Smedley Butler, a former American general who had become a spokesman for the far left.[113]

At the start of World War II, President Franklin D. Roosevelt was opposed to European colonialism, especially in India. He pulled back when Britain's Winston Churchill demanded that victory in the war be the first priority. Roosevelt expected that the United Nations would take up the problem of decolonization.[114]

Some have described the internal strife between various people groups as a form of imperialism or colonialism. This internal form is distinct from informal U.S. imperialism in the form of political and financial hegemony.[115] This internal form of imperialism is also distinct from the United States' formation of "colonies" abroad.[115] Through the treatment of its indigenous peoples during westward expansion, the United States took on the form of an imperial power prior to any attempts at external imperialism. This internal form of empire has been referred to as "internal colonialism".[116] Participation in the African slave trade and the subsequent treatment of its 12 to 15 million Africans is viewed by some to be a more modern extension of America's "internal colonialism".[117] However, this internal colonialism faced resistance, as external colonialism did, but the anti-colonial presence was far less prominent due to the nearly complete dominance that the United States was able to assert over both indigenous peoples and African-Americans.[118] In his lecture on April 16, 2003, Edward Said made a bold statement on modern imperialism in the United States, whom he described as using aggressive means of attack towards the contemporary Orient, "due to their backward living, lack of democracy and the violation of women’s rights. The western world forgets during this process of converting the other that enlightenment and democracy are concepts that not all will agree upon".[119]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism#United_States

[wat0n]

What's actually happening is that I'm showing you have no ground to stand on here. Why would anyone care about your opinion on the state of civil rights in the US when you obviously do not believe in civil rights?

[ingliz]

gulags ... civil rights

The United States had the highest prisoner rate, with 639 prisoners per 100,000 of the national population.

2.1 million in 2019

US Rate of Imprisonment by Race and Ethnicity per 100,000

Black 1,408
Hispanic 378
White 275

Data source: United States Department of Justice. Office of Justice Programs. Bureau of Justice Statistics. National Prisoner Statistics, 1978-2014. Bibliographic Citation: ICPSR36281-v1. Ann Arbor, MI: Inter-university Consortium for Political and Social Research [distributor], 2015-10-09; U.S. Census Bureau (2013). 2013 Population Estimates. Annual estimates of the resident population by sex, race, and Hispanic origin for the United States, states, and counties: April 1, 2010, to July 1, 2013. Washington, DC: U.S. Census Bureau.

[late]

*civil rights*

In 1973 I visited Hungary when Russia had it's boot on their neck. I also went to Spain that year, when Franco had his boot on the neck of the country.

I've seen what it's like when there are no civil rights.

https://acoup.blog/2021/01/15/miscellanea-insurrections-ancient-and-modern-and-also-meet-the-academicats/

[wat0n]

The United States had the highest prisoner rate, with 639 prisoners per 100,000 of the national population.

2.1 million in 2019

US Rate of Imprisonment by Race and Ethnicity per 100,000

Black 1,408
Hispanic 378
White 275

Data source: United States Department of Justice. Office of Justice Programs. Bureau of Justice Statistics. National Prisoner Statistics, 1978-2014. Bibliographic Citation: ICPSR36281-v1. Ann Arbor, MI: Inter-university Consortium for Political and Social Research [distributor], 2015-10-09; U.S. Census Bureau (2013). 2013 Population Estimates. Annual estimates of the resident population by sex, race, and Hispanic origin for the United States, states, and counties: April 1, 2010, to July 1, 2013. Washington, DC: U.S. Census Bureau.

Much better than having the government starve you and your family to death, like the Soviets did in Ukraine - and in any event, the US incarceration rates are trending down across the board.

[ingliz]

Much better than...

Mortality rates are high in detention and have been shown to be as much as 50 percent* higher for prisoners than for people in the wider community.

* UNHCHR report (2019)

[wat0n]

Mortality rates are high in detention and have been shown to be as much as 50 percent* higher for prisoners than for people in the wider community.

* UNHCHR report (2019)

Again, much better than the mortality rate in Stalin's Ukraine

[ckaihatsu]

Again, much better than the mortality rate in Stalin's Ukraine

We can trace Holodomor back to the conditions of *duress* for Russia's industrialization -- and China's too -- at the hands of the already-industrialized Western empires.

This topic just came up recently at another thread:

As I indicated earlier, the *Western* countries had already industrialized, so this wasn't some 'fad' going-around.

Russia and China just had conditions of *duress* imposed on them from without, for *their* periods of industrialization.

viewtopic.php?p=15182097#p15182097

Consider that both Russia and China *threw off* their monarchies, just as the U.S., France, and Britain did, yet Russia and China were *invaded* by the developed world.

[ckaihatsu]

What's actually happening is that I'm showing you have no ground to stand on here. Why would anyone care about your opinion on the state of civil rights in the US when you obviously do not believe in civil rights?

Vague again. You're certainly not taking any effort to make any kind of a case that I'm *not* for civil rights, especially because I'm *for* civil rights, all the way through to *de-privatization* so that *workers* can control the material-world legacy of their own past labor efforts.