Indigenous Canadians burning churches in Canada - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15181295
What should happen is the people in the Church who did the bad deeds should be held responsible, if any are still alive. All i've seen is the Canadian government give out money in compensation recently, I haven't seen any legal accountability from anyone. I hope the Catholic Church has the pants sued off of them, and they know it's coming because for liability reasons the Pope has refused to apologize and the churches in Canada are refusing to hand over documents (evidence).
#15181299
Pants-of-dog wrote:And this is why we would have evidence if smallpox and cholera were a problem back when these mass graves were dug and filled with kids.

Since we do not have other mass graves at the time, we know your argument is incorrect.

Look up this article on wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholera_pit

The article mentions one mass grave in Toronto in St. James park where 5000 bodies were buried.
#15181300
Unthinking Majority wrote:What should happen is the people in the Church who did the bad deeds should be held responsible, if any are still alive.

There were no bad deeds committed by them.

You're being completely ridiculous. I don't know what types of things the media is feeding you.

Second of all, this is old history, doubtful any of them are still alive.
#15181301
In a 1997 documentary produced with funding from the federal government, survivors of the Kuper Industrial School describe it as "Canada's Alcatraz." Survivors from the island school say some children died after taking to the water in whatever they could find to try to escape the abuse they suffered at the school, which was operated by the Catholic Church until 1969 and closed by the government of Canada in 1975. In reality, the Church was directly responsible for what happened in Canada's residential schools. Indigenous children were systematically abused by Catholic nuns or teachers, who did not bother to report their deaths to local authorities and buried them deep underground because there was something to hide from police. Hundreds of unmarked graves have been discovered in recent weeks, using ground-penetrating radar, which was not technically possible until very recently. It was mostly in the 1950s when residential schools concealed many of these unrecorded deaths from abuse and neglect and those people who were responsible are already dead.

Image

VICTORIA—The chilly ocean channel between Vancouver Island and Penelakut Island has seen more than its share of death.

As far back as 1863, the island village with roughly 400 Penelakut residents was the site of a battle in the fighting that led to the British declaring a colonial government in B.C.

And it was to these same waters that two young sisters with a small boat took in 1959, as they attempted to escape another colonial legacy: Canada’s residential school system in the form of the Kuper Island School that then stood on the island.

It’s believed Beverly and Patricia Marilyn Joseph died in their attempt. The body of Patricia Marilyn, 14, was found washed ashore 10 kilometres from the school; the body of Beverly, 12, was not found. The shocking abuse as detailed by victims has been well documented for decades but this latest discovery deepens a national reckoning on unmarked graves and why the deaths were undocumented for so long.

The 2015 Truth and Reconciliation Commission reports initially confirmed the deaths of 3,201 children in the residential school system. That number was already high, indicating a mortality rate for residential schoolchildren at least twice that of the general population before 1950. There have been 980 more names added since the initial report.

Recent searches using ground-penetrating radar in the western communities of Kamloops, Marieval and Cranbrook are showing the actual number may be much higher still.

The TRC records show the names of 120 children who are known to have died at the residential school at Penelakut Island.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/202 ... raves.html
Last edited by ThirdTerm on 16 Jul 2021 20:47, edited 1 time in total.
#15181303
Unthinking Majority wrote:Why is it an either/or scenario? Obviously burning churches and kidnapping kids and abusing them are both bad. And no sane person would say burning churches is worse or equal to what was done to those kids.

Look, "kidnapping" them to go to those schools is a separate issue. Let's not conflate the issues here.

I will be happy to debate that in another separate thread. Let's please stay on topic.


It's not so black & white as you imagine. There did exist some reasons for the Canadian government to want the children to be in those schools.
#15181304
ThirdTerm wrote: Survivors from the island school say some children died after taking to the water in whatever they could find to try to escape the abuse they suffered at the school, which was operated by the Catholic Church until 1969 and closed by the government of Canada in 1975. In reality, the Church was directly responsible for what happened in Canada's residential schools. Indigenous children were systematically abused by Catholic nuns or teachers, who did not bother to report their deaths to local authorities and buried them deep underground because there was something to hide from police.

There are also many stories of orphans being abused in Catholic schools in Ireland.

I think this might have more to do with poverty and limited resources being available to take care of these children than it does the Catholic Church being responsible.
(i.e. if the government had directly run those schools, I don't think things would have been better)

Suffering abuse is still not the same thing as intentional killing, or abuse that rises to the level of causing mass numbers of children to die wholesale.
#15181306
Unthinking Majority wrote:This is total nonsense. The news cycle in Canada has been talking about and reporting on this issue non-stop for months since the ground scan of the first mass grave. You don't know the context any more than the average Canadian, who only know what's reported in the news. At least indigenous groups in Canada are looking for the truth by requesting records from the Catholic Church, many who don't want to hand them over.


The press is discussing it because it is gruesome and gruesome stories make good headlines. But the average Canadian does not care very much.

We know this because the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (hereafter TRC) asked for funding to look for mass graves on residential school sites. This was because some graves had already been found then.

So, the mass graves story is not new. Each particular newly found mass grave is.

And Indigenous groups have been looking for mass graves for this whole time; i.e. decades.

Unthinking Majority wrote:What should happen is the people in the Church who did the bad deeds should be held responsible, if any are still alive. All i've seen is the Canadian government give out money in compensation recently, I haven't seen any legal accountability from anyone. I hope the Catholic Church has the pants sued off of them, and they know it's coming because for liability reasons the Pope has refused to apologize and the churches in Canada are refusing to hand over documents (evidence).


http://trc.ca/assets/pdf/Calls_to_Action_English2.pdf

The TRC has a list of actions needed to be taken by the church and the government in order to deal with this.

The information can be found on page 12 of 20 in the PDF, or page 8 of the paper.

Puffer Fish wrote:Look up this article on wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholera_pit

The article mentions one mass grave in Toronto in St. James park where 5000 bodies were buried.


Now all you need to show is that residential schools had cholera problems at the time.

And then show this accounts for all the deaths in all the mass graves.

And then show that the church and government were unable to do anything about it.

Puffer Fish wrote:It's not so black & white as you imagine. There did exist some reasons for the Canadian government to want the children to be in those schools.


Yes. The reason was cultural genocide.

And this is not my term, but the way the judges looking at the case described it.

Puffer Fish wrote:There are also many stories of orphans being abused in Catholic schools in Ireland.


Look, oppression of Irish people is a separate issue. Let's not conflate the issues here.

I will be happy to debate that in another separate thread. Let's please stay on topic.

…. abuse that rises to the level of causing mass numbers of children to die wholesale.


That is a good description of what happened.
#15181323
Puffer Fish wrote:There were no bad deeds committed by them.

You're being completely ridiculous. I don't know what types of things the media is feeding you.

Second of all, this is old history, doubtful any of them are still alive.

Nuns and priests did a lot of the education across the country back in the day, and many were cruel bastards. They would give kids the strap and other corporal punishment, and these were kids who went home to their parents every night.

There's a ton of older indigenous people who will tell you all sorts of stories of the abuse. Many kids fled the schools to try to go home but they had no idea where they were going, they had no idea how far away they were, some got lost and died.
#15181606
Unthinking Majority wrote:There's a ton of older indigenous people who will tell you all sorts of stories of the abuse.

Some of this abuse was done by individual people and would definitely not have been sanctioned or tolerated by the people running the schools. (i.e. sexual abuse for example)
#15181664
Puffer Fish wrote:Some of this abuse was done by individual people and would definitely not have been sanctioned or tolerated by the people running the schools. (i.e. sexual abuse for example)


But the abuse leading to the mass graves was sanctioned and tolerated by the school.

We know this because the school dug the mass graves.
#15181720
Puffer Fish wrote:Some of this abuse was done by individual people and would definitely not have been sanctioned or tolerated by the people running the schools. (i.e. sexual abuse for example)


No it was wide spread. No point trying to act like it wasn't.

They have reported 900 deaths from tuberculosis and 150 from Spanish flu and influenza epidemics but the death records are not clear because in 1920 when the death rates got high the federal government stopped reporting them showing it was fuly aware of the high death rates and covered it up. They were well aware of the poor substandard health services and conditions leading to these outbreaks, break outs,

As well the governments never did public inspections of the schools and so schools were free to remain unaccountable as these soaring death rates came in and teachers did report the wide spread sex abuse and beatings and no one did a damn thing.

see: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/U ... 002/2.html

It's all there-if you want to find it. The fact is residential schools operated in Canada for over 150 years, with more than 150,000 children passing through their doors until the last ones closed in 1996.

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission identified 4,120 children who went missing from around 150 schools. Murray Sinclair, an Indigenous former judge who led the inquiry, said in a recent interview with The New York Times that he now believes the number was "well beyond 10,000."

see: https://www.dw.com/en/at-former-indigen ... a-58114383)

The above goes on to say:

The Roman Catholic Church operated 60% of the residential schools in Canada, while the Anglican Church, the United Church and Presbyterians ran the rest.

Pope Francis has yet to apologize, and the Catholic Church still has not disclosed all the historical documents in its possession that are related to the schools.

It also goes on to say our Prime Minister who made a point of crying with a hankie for all to see said his government would implement 94 actions the Truth and Conciliation Commission recommended but a December 2020 investigation by the Yellowhead Institute, a First Nation-led research center based in Toronto, found only eight have been fully implemented.

Absolutely no point trying to down play it as isolated or rare.
#15181721
Unthinking Majority wrote:What should happen is the people in the Church who did the bad deeds should be held responsible, if any are still alive. All i've seen is the Canadian government give out money in compensation recently, I haven't seen any legal accountability from anyone. I hope the Catholic Church has the pants sued off of them, and they know it's coming because for liability reasons the Pope has refused to apologize and the churches in Canada are refusing to hand over documents (evidence).


They will get away with it the same way they shuffled out priests molesting boys in Boston, Mass, and so many other places. The Church are experts at covering up what they did. The Pope before the current one was twhe Cardinal in charge of all the coverups. The current one covered up wide spread molestation in Argentina.

I feel bad for Catholics because who are they supposed to trust? Their entire hierarchy of authority is a large corrupt network of immoral sob's. As for the other churches involved isn't it always the case those claiming to be people of God are the most corrupt and immoral.

I do not trust any organized religion including my own (Jewish) although we no longer have one centralized organ and we can thank Jesus ironically for blowing up the very hierarchy th. e Catholic Church reconstituted. Nothing good comes from organized religion you ask me but it can come from good people in spite of their religious organizations politics if they question and challenge these so called holy people.

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