DOJ Puts States on Notice About Election Law Changes - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15182863
Looks like a lot of the Republican states that are passing voter suppression laws could get push back from the DOJ.

Tierney Sneed of CNN wrote:The department released two new election guidance documents. They come as Arizona Republicans are in the midst of a controversial review of the 2020 results in the state's largest county, and while state GOP lawmakers across the country consider restrictive voting legislation.

"This document sets down a marker that says the Justice Department is concerned about this and we will be following this closely," a department official said Wednesday.

The DOJ audit memo addressed two main concerns: that election records are properly retained and preserved in accordance with civil rights law, and that audit procedures don't have the intent or effect of intimidating voters.

The guidance document references the plan -- for now, abandoned -- in the Arizona audit to contact voters in person or over the phone and collect information about how they cast their ballots.

"This sort of activity raises concerns regarding potential intimidation of voters," the DOJ's guidance said, while promising that the department "will act" if post-election audits are conducted in a way that has the "purpose nor the effect of dissuading qualified citizens from participating in the electoral process."

Already, the Justice Department has sent Arizona lawmakers a letter warning them of potential federal law violations in the audit's procedures.

"The reason we are issuing this guidance is to tell jurisdictions, generally, that we are concerned that if they're going to conduct these audits -- these so-called audits of the past elections -- they have to comply with federal law," the DOJ official said.

A second guidance memo covers federal voting laws as they affect how ballots are cast. It noted that the pandemic changed the way that people voted, with voters flocking to mail voting and early in-person voting. The guidance memo emphasized that the Justice Department will not presume any reversion back to previous voting procedures to be automatically lawful.

"What we're just saying to jurisdictions is ...you should not assume that if you abandon the practices that have made it easier for people to vote, that abandonment is not going to get scrutiny from the Department of Justice," the official said.

The official declined to comment on any investigation that might be going into post-election audits.



https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/28/politics ... index.html
#15182897
Politics_Observer wrote:Looks like a lot of the Republican states that are passing voter suppression laws could get push back from the DOJ.




And exactly what is the DOJ gonna do? I think it is all hot air.

Attorney General Garland reminds me of that one armed bandit in "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" who cornered Turco in a bath, and instead of blasting off Turco proceeded to deliver a lengthy soliloquy on how long he had trained and waited for that moment, and what he was gonna do...... of course, as you know, Turco pumped him full of bullets and dispatched him with the sarcastic, "when you have to shoot, shoot. Dont talk".

If Garland believes laws have been broken, then let him prosecute. I think he should stop issuing empty threats.
#15182899
@Juin

I am not a lawyer but the DOJ might decide to take some sort of legal action. Besides, why change election laws when the factual evidence presented demonstrates that the past election was free and fair? Maybe if the republicans want to get elected more often they should actually have a policy and platform and make sure they have a better policy and platform that the majority of American voters can actually support and would want. So, republicans need to actually have a good policy or platform that appeals to the American voter and can actually compete with the democrats.

Of course, it seems that the republicans can't compete or hang in a free and fair election so they cheat with the end goal of manufacturing an election result they want rather than earning a legitimate election result and earning legitimacy through honest, free and fair elections. They don't want to do that. They want to cheat, hence these election laws they have passed to ensure a manufactured election result they want.

They are afraid and not confident in themselves and so they resort to cheating by passing these laws. If they felt confident in themselves and their policies and platform, they wouldn't resort to trying to change election laws that would prevent a free and fair election result. The republicans are not interested in representing the American people or serving the American people. They only want one thing: POWER at any cost even at the expense of the American voter and the true legitimate will of the people.
#15182991
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

I am not a lawyer but the DOJ might decide to take some sort of legal action. Besides, why change election laws when the factual evidence presented demonstrates that the past election was free and fair? Maybe if the republicans want to get elected more often they should actually have a policy and platform and make sure they have a better policy and platform that the majority of American voters can actually support and would want. So, republicans need to actually have a good policy or platform that appeals to the American voter and can actually compete with the democrats.

Of course, it seems that the republicans can't compete or hang in a free and fair election so they cheat with the end goal of manufacturing an election result they want rather than earning a legitimate election result and earning legitimacy through honest, free and fair elections. They don't want to do that. They want to cheat, hence these election laws they have passed to ensure a manufactured election result they want.

They are afraid and not confident in themselves and so they resort to cheating by passing these laws. If they felt confident in themselves and their policies and platform, they wouldn't resort to trying to change election laws that would prevent a free and fair election result. The republicans are not interested in representing the American people or serving the American people. They only want one thing: POWER at any cost even at the expense of the American voter and the true legitimate will of the people.




Actually Republicans do well at elections. Even last year's elections was pretty good for Republicans. Trump wasnt the only one running. After all is said and done Republicans actually fared way better than Democrats thought they would.

But back to Garland.

If a law is being broken, then let him prosecute. That is his job. Even though I am a Republican, I dont want Garland to give Republicans a break if he believes they are in breach of the law.

Problem is that neither Garland, nor yourself, is actually pointing out any single violation of the law. The most I can get from Garland's lamentations is unease at legislations taking place. If that is all, then he should hold his peace. It is the job of legislatures to make the laws. State legislatures do not answer to Garland. If Garland is tired of enforcing laws, and will rather make laws, then he should resign from his job as Attorney General and run for some legislative office
#15182993
@Juin

The fact that republicans do well in elections PRIOR to passing these voter suppression laws just further makes my point that these laws were un-necessary to begin with and simply wages war on our democracy and brings discredit and dishonor upon the republican party because they are the ones who are behind these laws. It illustrates that they are afraid to compete in honest and fair elections and that they lack confidence in their ability to win elections fair and square. They are afraid they can't earn their wins in elections and thus resort to cheating by passing these laws. This makes the republican party look bad. I want say to republicans that if you want to get elected, then earn it. Earn your wins. Give the American people a good reason to vote for you based on good ideas and good policy that will benefit ALL Americans and that will benefit the country as a whole. Earn your election wins. That's the challenge I lay down to the republicans. Earn it.
#15182998
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

The fact that republicans do well in elections PRIOR to passing these voter suppression laws just further makes my point that these laws were un-necessary to begin with and simply wages war on our democracy and brings discredit and dishonor upon the republican party because they are the ones who are behind these laws. It illustrates that they are afraid to compete in honest and fair elections and that they lack confidence in their ability to win elections fair and square. They are afraid they can't earn their wins in elections and thus resort to cheating by passing these laws. This makes the republican party look bad. I want say to republicans that if you want to get elected, then earn it. Earn your wins. Give the American people a good reason to vote for you based on good ideas and good policy that will benefit ALL Americans and that will benefit the country as a whole. Earn your election wins. That's the challenge I lay down to the republicans. Earn it.




You are accusing Republicans of cheating. That should make it a matter of interest to the Attorney General. If Garland has evidence of Republican cheating, then it is his duty to prosecute. Does he?

And, Politics Observer, there is irony galore in your protestations against cheating. Dont you find it ironic that you should be protesting about cheating when it is your party that advocates voting without ID? What exactly is voting without identification if not an invitation to fraud?
#15183001
@Juin

Absolutely I am accusing republicans of cheating because that is exactly what they are doing when passing those voter suppression laws. They are trying to prevent free and fair elections. You said it yourself that they had no trouble winning elections in the past and here recently. Heck, they even won a few more seats in the House in the last election. So why pass these laws then? They are not necessary. The republicans don't believe they have the ability to actually EARN what they get and thus the reason why they passed these laws.
#15183022
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

Absolutely I am accusing republicans of cheating because that is exactly what they are doing when passing those voter suppression laws. They are trying to prevent free and fair elections. You said it yourself that they had no trouble winning elections in the past and here recently. Heck, they even won a few more seats in the House in the last election. So why pass these laws then? They are not necessary. The republicans don't believe they have the ability to actually EARN what they get and thus the reason why they passed these laws.




What you call voter 'suppression laws', I will call 'voter fraud prevention laws'.

I have zero respect for any individual who advocates for elimination of identification for voting. That is an open invitation to fraud. Compounded by masking such fraud promotion under under a spurious claim to fighting voter suppression.

Why dont you list exactly what 'voter suppressions' you object to? It is a broad sweeping term. Without you getting down to specifics it is hard for me to be sure whether we are in disagreement or not.
#15183025
@Juin

The facts and the logical conclusions destroy your premise that these so called "voter identification laws" are necessary. Really, these laws are designed to discriminate against lawful legitimate voters here in the U.S. The facts and the logical conclusions bear that out and destroy your premise that these are necessary or are designed to "prevent fraud." Such assertions made by you and your fellow republicans are totally without merit. And I think you know that and are simply lying to yourself and engaging in self deception because you don't care about freedom and democracy or things that are much more larger or important than yourself.

Which is very selfish of you and your fellow republicans that you would put your own narrow self interests above the best interests of the country. That's the truth of what you are doing. You might not like I what I am telling you but it's the truth. You got to learn that their are just some things far more important and larger than yourself and your own narrow selfish interests. You and your fellow republicans got to stop lying to yourself and engaging in things like voter suppression that endangers our democracy and vaccine denialism that endangers the very lives of your fellow American citizens due to this pandemic.
#15183028
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

The facts and the logical conclusions destroy your premise that these so called "voter identification laws" are necessary. Really, these laws are designed to discriminate against lawful legitimate voters here in the U.S. The facts and the logical conclusions bear that out and destroy your premise that these are necessary or are designed to "prevent fraud." Such assertions made by you and your fellow republicans are totally without merit. And I think you know that and are simply lying to yourself and engaging in self deception because you don't care about freedom and democracy or things that are much more larger or important than yourself.

Which is very selfish of you and your fellow republicans that you would put your own narrow self interests above the best interests of the country. That's the truth of what you are doing. You might not like I what I am telling you but it's the truth. You got to learn that their are just some things far more important and larger than yourself and your own narrow selfish interests. You and your fellow republicans got to stop lying to yourself and engaging in things like voter suppression that endangers our democracy and vaccine denialism that endangers the very lives of your fellow American citizens due to this pandemic.





My dear Politics_Observer,

You have written a lot without even attempting to explain to me why no identification requirement to vote is not an invitation to fraud. :lol:
#15183031
@Juin

Well bless your heart, I ain't talking about showing an ID when you go to vote, I am talking about how it is now a criminal offense here in the state of Georgia if somebody is given water while standing in line to vote. Do you think such laws are needed? Do you think somebody should go to jail simply for being given water while standing in a LOOONG line in the HOT GEORGIA SUN simply so they can vote? They shouldn't have to worry about dying of heat stroke just for trying to exercise their right to vote.

But since we are talking about voter ID laws, there is evidence that voter ID laws don't do any good towards combating any notion of "voter fraud." Here is the evidence to back up my assertion:

Sean Silverthorne of Harvard Business School wrote:Voter ID is certainly controversial, but political pundits rarely ask a key question: Do they actually work? A new research paper reaches a surprising conclusion: These rules don't impact voter fraud or public confidence, nor do they dampen registration or turnout. In essence, voter ID laws don't influence elections at all.


https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/voter-id-law ... ing-either

The evidence also shows that voter ID laws don't influence elections either, but they also don't combat or stop "voter fraud."
#15183036
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

Well bless your heart, I ain't talking about showing an ID when you go to vote, I am talking about how it is now a criminal offense here in the state of Georgia if somebody is given water while standing in line to vote. Do you think such laws are needed? Do you think somebody should go to jail simply for being given water while standing in a LOOONG line in the HOT SUN simply so they can vote?




I am not buying that. You cannot rail against "voter suppression laws" then tell me you never had voter id requirements in mind. Google up "voter suppression". ID requirements features in almost all the lists of "voter suppression" measures activists against list.

One Brennan Center for Justice lists: imposing strict voter ID laws, cutting voting times, restricting registration, and purging voter rolls, as examples of voter suppression. I expect that if you are gonna rail against voter suppression it should be on examples that feature prominently in the lists of activists and organisations against.

btw anyone can give food and water to voters waiting in line in Georgia, just not within 150 ft of the outer edge of a voting building, or 25 ft of any voter in line. I do not see what is outrageous about that. Maybe you would like these water bearers to be able to go right up to the voter in his booth to offer water?

And I just love when Democrats put up a show.:) Rep Jim Clyburn did grace Foxnews with his presence, where he proceeded to rail against the injustice of clapping in irons water bearers at polling stations. The good Rep Clyburn's voice rose a few octaves. One would be forgiven if one was left with the impression black neighbourhoods in Georgia have no drinking water. Meaning blacks arrive at polling stations already dehydrated! And maybe would be dropping dead but for water bearers lurking outside.

Political_Observer, it was all a farce by Rep Clyburn. A dog and pony show.
#15183038
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

But since we are talking about voter ID laws, there is evidence that voter ID laws don't do any good towards combating any notion of "voter fraud." Here is the evidence to back up my assertion:



https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/voter-id-law ... ing-either

The evidence also shows that voter ID laws don't influence elections either, but they also don't combat or stop "voter fraud."




Let me tell you something,

I always present my ID Card to the poll worker as a matter of principle, out of a deep respect for the integrity of the process. I never had to. The poll workers here in California always wanted only my name. Not that they dont necessarily welcome the ID, I must add. I always present my ID. I feel it makes the poll worker's job easier, and I have the satisfaction that that poll worker is as certain as is possible that she did her job well. And my motivation has never been out of any concern that anyone there was not who they purpoted to be. It is over the integrity of the process. It instills confidence in our democracy. It is the least that can be asked of a citizen. I simply have zero respect for a voter who holds this valuable democracy in such contempt as to think it is not worthwile to do the little that it takes to uphold its integrity.

My good Politics_Observer, dont take democracy and the values this here Republic upholds for granted. One day it will be gone. Postpone that day by upholding its integrity.
#15183048
It's gonna be really fucking funny if they start cracking down on the people in Arizona and now Pennsylvania who are going door to door asking people who they voted for.

From the local ABC 27 wrote:But when [York County President Commisoner Julie Wheeler (R)]'s office began receiving complaints about people from something called the “Election Integrity Committee” knocking on doors to talk about past elections, something seemed fishy. How fishy?

“We have turned this matter over to the Southern Regional Police Department, so I want to be sensitive that this is an investigation and not comment on anything specific,” Wheeler said. “But the individual is knocking on doors, asking questions around voting and who individuals may or may not have voted for last year.”


The GOP has been nothing but a bunch of conmen operating a gigantic scam, a fractal con wherein grifts make up larger grifts, for a long time. And it turns out that when you spend decades selling your moronic base on unfounded fears to hock vitamins and get votes, a la Alex Jones, it will eventually gin people into action. This is definitely very normal and cool behavior from the Q party, the one that believes in an end times prophecy wherein all Democrats and anyone who even vaguely opposed Trump will be murdered on live television for the crime of harvesting adrenochrome from mole children.

Very normal, very cool party that is in love with democratic principles.

Juin wrote:I always present my ID Card to the poll worker as a matter of principle, out of a deep respect for the integrity of the process. I never had to. The poll workers here in California always wanted only my name.


Congratulations, you were tricked into believing you have principles based on your committment, knowingly or unknowingly, to propagating a racist lie meant to keep the poor and non-whites from voting. You can't register within a California precinct without first registering in your district, which requires a state ID. Nor can you cast a provisional ballot without listing your ID number. On top of that, every poll worker I've ever spoken with has asked for my name and address to verify that I'm registered to vote in their station.

The idea that people are going around claiming to be someone who lives at a registered voter's address is ridiculous, as the odds of being caught are insanely high if you want to affect the vote in any meaningful way. It is a non-issue, and if even one person ends up coming in to vote that twice cast ballot will be caught very quickly.

btw anyone can give food and water to voters waiting in line in Georgia, just not within 150 ft of the outer edge of a voting building, or 25 ft of any voter in line. I do not see what is outrageous about that. Maybe you would like these water bearers to be able to go right up to the voter in his booth to offer water?


I do take issue with that. Why do you think legislators crafted this bill to begin with? What do you think was their intent? Are people not already prohibited from trying to persuade voters outside the precinct with signs or in-person advocacy? Also lmao, oh no, people are being offered water inside the polling place. What horror!

Here is what I think their intent is: To punish voters who are already at understaffed precincts in blue districts who get out of line to grab water, causing them to lose their place and hopefully be dissuaded. Every vote counts, but not as much as the votes you can take away from your opposition

Maybe I'm cynical. Maybe you have a more positive idea of why this law was crafted. Surely, the legislators must have had nothing but good intentions.
#15183066
@Juin

The evidence show, from what I can see, that current voter ID laws that were just recently passed don't seem to effect election results one way or another. They also show that there is no evidence such laws combat the notion of "voter fraud." So, given these voter id laws as they currently are do not effect elections one way or another, personally I am not worried about them. What I do worry about is when republicans try to make it a crime to give somebody some water while standing in line to vote in the hot sun. But, even with voter id laws, why bother with them if they don't combat the notion of voter fraud given the hard evidence?
#15183068
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

The evidence show, from what I can see, that current voter ID laws that were just recently passed don't seem to effect election results one way or another. They also show that there is no evidence such laws combat the notion of "voter fraud." So, given these voter id laws as they currently are do not effect elections one way or another, personally I am not worried about them. What I do worry about is when republicans try to make it a crime to give somebody some water while standing in line to vote in the hot sun. But, even with voter id laws, why bother with them if they don't combat the notion of voter fraud given the hard evidence?


That's an interesting result, and it's great they don't affect the actual vote percentages, turnout or registration regardless of the demographic involved. I don't find it surprising they also don't seem to affect voter fraud, if it was nonexistent before these laws were passed, of course it will remain nonexistent after the fact.

I still think these laws are useful, even though those who have made their minds on the matter of the extent of voter fraud will be unlikely to change their mind, the fact that these laws exist are good for preventing fence-sitters from doubting results in the future. The next time the election deniers claim voter fraud, just remind them of the laws that are currently in place and fence-sitters will be able to see they are bullshitting or at least remain skeptical.

I see that paper as providing support for ID laws as they are meant to shore up the credibility of electoral results as much as possible.
#15183085
@wat0n @Pants-of-dog @Juin

The article I am using as my source of evidence is an authortative source BUT it was written in 2019 (and the most recent voter suppression laws were passed AFTER 2019 is my understanding). However, I highly doubt the specific laws that changed voter ID requirements and made them more stringent in the recent legislation in republican states will change election results one way or another. But I do think the intent of republicans with such stricter voter ID requirements was to target democrat voters even though such laws are unlikely to change an election result.

That being said, things that could sway results is making it harder for people to vote like making it a crime for somebody standing in line to vote to be given water to drink. If it's hot outside and they start feeling the effects of heat stroke, they will get out of a long line to vote so they can get some water and cool off. Then they would have to get back in to the end of the line to vote, which can discourage people from voting and that can unfairly sway elections because not every eligible voter who wanted to vote could vote because of such laws in place.
#15183094
Politics_Observer wrote:That being said, things that could sway results is making it harder for people to vote like making it a crime for somebody standing in line to vote to be given water to drink. If it's hot outside and they start feeling the effects of heat stroke, they will get out of a long line to vote so they can get some water and cool off. Then they would have to get back in to the end of the line to vote, which can discourage people from voting and that can unfairly sway elections because not every eligible voter who wanted to vote could vote because of such laws in place.


Yeah, that's not an ID law. I wonder how would the states defend that, at most I can imagine them trying to claim it's a form of bribery, but then the election officials could hand those water bottles for people who have to wait in line with the annoying summer heat in parts of this country.
#15183115
There is no level of election integrity that will satisfy GOP candidates or their base now that their gameplan is to call all Democratic wins fraudulent and refuse to recognize any results that are not a win for them. Bending over backwards to satisfy people who are either delusional or not acting in good faith is not worth the time or effort, and any attempts to be conciliatory will only make voting more difficult, which is exactly what the GOP wants.

The few fraud cases that made the news were people voting on their dead spouse's behalf for Trump and the like. How about we just make voter ID's and thumb prints mandatory for registered Republicans since they are the ones who apparently can't be trusted?
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