[Rugoz]

Well I am on my phone and out. The paper had a disclaimer so how about that for a consensus view.

Are you mad? Again, this is the paper I cited:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1344512

If you don't have access you can use this link (instead of acting like a jerk):
https://academic.oup.com/economicpolicy ... m=fulltext

[B0ycey]

Are you mad? Again, this is the paper I cited:

Are you mad, it has a disclaimer!

But really that is just one issue Rugoz. I could just point out that the author acknowledges that the Marshall Plan was required. So even if we accept that this is the best of best sources that in no way is just an opinion paper and has all the support from scientists (so not economists ) across the globe, the source doesn't support anything you wrote. You were also selective in your quotes and missed out all the stuff that basically says you were chatting shit. What you are doing is digging. You have been caught out and will not admit your failings. This is why you are a midwit. You had an opinion and then tried really hard to find something to support it. But you failed. I read the whole thing despite it being a bank holiday weekend and being out and still discovered you clearly didn't read it all. Not my problem. You are a quack.

[Beren]

Perhaps, but that doesn't explain why Vietnam has a growing economy now...

But it does explain how they're still not westernised (despite a growing economy).

[Rugoz]

Are you mad, it has a disclaimer!

But really that is just one issue Rugoz. I could just point out that the author acknowledges that the Marshall Plan was required. So even if we accept that this is the best of best sources that in no way is just an opinion paper and has all the support from scientists (so not economists ) across the globe, the source doesn't support anything you wrote. You were also selective in your quotes and missed out all the stuff that basically says you were chatting shit. What you are doing is digging. You have been caught out and will not admit your failings. This is why you are a midwit. You had an opinion and then tried really hard to find something to support it. But you failed. I read the whole thing despite it being a bank holiday weekend and being out and still discovered you clearly didn't read it all. Not my problem. You are a quack.

All of this is literally straight-up bullshit and lies.

[Thunderhawk]

Sir, every single city in Germany was a pile of rubble in May, 1945. Most of their factiries were rubble. All of their fuel plants were rubble.
. . . I don't see how you can think that they didn't need and get a lot of help from someone. I think you need to review your history. You seem to have some parts wrong.

Engineers remained engineers, doctors remained doctors, brick layers remained brick layers. The skills, knowledge and social structure needed for industry did not die in the bombing. So long as equipment and supplies can be safely imported and remade, what is there to stop a productive industrial society from rebuilding?

[late]

Sigh...

There are a bunch of Right wing economists that don't (or didn't) like the Marshall Plan.

Big whoop.

The Marshall Plan was not just the Marshall Plan... The USSR was gobbling up countries to expand it's miserable empire. We provided security, and a long series of agreements that would come to be known as the Bretton Woods agreements.

So, if you ask a historian, he will tell you it helped. Our help sped up the process at a time when time was limited.

Bottom line, there is a thin line between legitimate criticism of the Marshall Plan, and barking at the moon lunacy...

[Rugoz]

So, if you ask a historian, he will tell you it helped. Our help sped up the process at a time when time was limited.

This is not about whether the Marshall Plan helped, although the extent of which is debatable, but rather what part of it helped.

[late]

This is not about whether the Marshall Plan helped, although the extent of which is debatable, but rather what part of it helped.

No, the underlying assumption is that it wasn't needed.

Which is absurd.

[Rugoz]

No, the underlying assumption is that it wasn't needed.

Underlying assumption of what?

[late]

Underlying assumption of what?

That we didn't need to do it...

[Doug64]

You don't know much about our enemies. The whole goal behind the September 11 attacks was to draw us into Afghanistan, then protract out the conflict and get us to spend a bunch of money to ultimately exhaust us.

You give Bin Laden way too much credit. I don't believe for a minute that they expected the US and our allies to actually invade the Taliban--for damn sure the Taliban didn't, or they'd have turfed Al-Qaeda out on their ear before 9-11 ever happened.

This is not a conventional war we are fighting. We are fighting an unconventional war and we need to adapt to this new form of warfare or keep suffering defeat after defeat. Do you want to keep losing? Because that's exactly what is going to happen if we go back into Afghanistan. You're never going to subdue that region, I am telling you.

To repeat myself, only a few thousand US & allied troops, and no fatalities in over a year and then only two. For us the war was over, we'd won, we'd mostly come home, now we just needed to provide the minimal support needed to at worst maintain the status quo. Now in a few years, once Afghanistan again becomes a terrorist safe haven, we're going to have to do it all over again at who knows how high a cost in lives and treasure.

Ask the Aztecs if the 'Clash of Civilizations' is a myth. Oh wait, you can't can you? Lol.

Yeah, that's as bad as "violence never solves anything." To quote Robert A. Heinlein: "Anyone who clings to the historically untrue--and thoroughly immoral--doctrine that, 'violence never settles anything' I would advise to conjure the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk and the Passenger Pigeon." All you need for a "Clash of Civilizations" to occur is for one of the sides to fight to impose their own civilization on others--and that is essentially what the Islamists are all about.

I'm sure most have heard of this by now, but for those that haven't, the mother of one of the Marines Biden got killed had a few words to say to Biden and the voters that elected* him:

Slain Marine’s mom tells Biden voters: ‘You just killed my son’

A grief-stricken Colorado mother whose son was killed last week in Kabul pinned the blame squarely on President Biden and those who voted him into office, declaring “you just killed my son.”

Kathy McCollum, whose son, Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Rylee McCollum, was one of the 13 U.S. service members slain Thursday at the Hamid Karzai International Airport, lashed out the next day at the president in an emotional call to SiriusXM radio host Andrew Wilkow.

“My son was one of the Marines that died yesterday,” Ms. McCollum said on “The Wilkow Majority,” which airs on the Patriot channel. “Twenty years and six months old, getting ready to come home from fricking Jordan to be with his wife to watch the birth of his son, and that feckless, dementia-ridden piece of crap just sent my son to die.”

The distraught mother continued: “My son is gone, and I just want all you Democrats who cheated in the election or who voted for him legitimately, you just killed my son.”

More than 100 people were killed and 180 reportedly injured in the blast as thousands swarmed the airport to evacuate after the Taliban overran Kabul on Aug. 15 as U.S. troops withdrew.

Ms. McCollum, who lives in Montrose, said she woke up at 4 a.m. Friday when Marines arrived at her door to inform her of her son’s death.

“I never thought in a million years he would die for nothing, for nothing, because a feckless, dementia-ridden piece of crap decided he wanted a photo op on September 11,” she said. “That’s what kills me. I wanted my son to represent our country, to fight for my country. But I never thought that a feckless piece of crap would send him to his death.”

While she was told that her son did not die in vain, she disagreed, saying, “Guess what, my son did die in vain.”

“This was an unnecessary debacle that could have been handled properly,” Ms. McCollum said. “They had months and months to remove everyone from Afghanistan, and they chose not to, and so they sent in, fricking what, 6,000 troops? And my son, through the laws of statistics, my son was one of the ones who just got blown up in a fricking terrorist bomb yesterday.”

Mr. Biden and first lady Jill Biden attended the solemn transfer of the fallen troops Sunday at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware.

“The 13 service members that we lost were heroes who made the ultimate sacrifice in service of our highest American ideals and while saving the lives of others,” Mr. Biden said Saturday in a statement. “Their bravery and selflessness has enabled more than 117,000 people at risk to reach safety thus far.”

Ms. McCollum said that her congresswoman, Republican Rep. Lauren Boebert, “will be at my house tomorrow, and we’ll speak, and hopefully she’ll be able to convey my message to the rest of the United States.”

In a speech at the Steamboat Institute Freedom Conference, Ms. Boebert said she spoke Friday with Ms. McCollum, calling it “one of the most disturbing phone calls I’ve ever experienced in my entire life.”

“And I make no apology after hearing the voice of his mother in saying that his blood is on Joe Biden’s hands,” Ms. Boebert told the crowd. “Her son was murdered yesterday because of this poor execution of getting our troops, our American citizens out of Afghanistan. This has been disgusting and shameful.”

Ms. Boebert is one of nearly two dozen House and Senate Republicans who have called for Mr. Biden to resign over the chaotic withdrawal.

In the radio interview, which was posted Saturday on Twitter by Mr. Wilkow, Ms. McCollum said Mr. Biden “needs to be removed from office. It never would have happened under [former President Donald] Trump.

“Every Democrat that’s listening, you did this to my son, to prop up a disgusting human being,” she said.

Several crowdfunding pages have been established to benefit the fallen Marine’s wife and unborn child.

Ms. McCollum said her son was married and his wife is expecting their first child on Sept. 26, adding that she was “too mad to cry.”

“But when I see that baby in a month, when his baby is born, I’m sure I’ll break down and cry,” Ms. McCollum said.

[SpecialOlympian]

Pretty sure America killed her son, along with many others, by invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 because the Bush administration figured out that massive military industrial contracts were the best way to enrich themselves and their friends.

Like I dunno, we spent $2 trillion over 20 years fundamentally not changing Afghani society or making any concrete changes, as evidenced by the fact that the Taliban just rolled in the second we left? Seems like we could have bribed them to let us run a few airfields there for way, way, way, way less if the goal was to establish a couple military bases. Also a lot more Afghanis would be alive right now.

I just have zero sympathy for this idiot lady and her dead son. You signed up with the US Army while we are actively engaged in multiple meaningless wars. I'm sorry your son died, but like a soldier dying in a war zone isn't something that surprises me or anyone with more than two functioning brain cells. And it's not even a war zone anyone cared about until Biden could be blamed, lmao, so I'm especially disgusted by Doug64 trying to rub this dead soldier's corpse in my face like he suddenly cares about the pivotal force projection zone of Afghanistan.

I think we should be proud of this brave patriot who died to keep our freedoms free in Afghanistan, a country none of us will ever visit. But thanks for trying, loser.

*I stamp my foot*

YA HAVIN' A FUN TIME DOWN THERE, PRIVATE DUMBASS? THANKS FOR KEEPING MY FREEDOMS FREE IN AFGHANISTAN

The distraught mother continued: “My son is gone, and I just want all you Democrats who cheated in the election or who voted for him legitimately, you just killed my son.”

Lmao thank you for sharing this article Doug it is hilarious.

[colliric]

The full call.

[MadMonk]

SO preaches the truth. When the Afghan government collapses with this speed there is only one conclusion; it was a deeply unpopular American puppet regime that could never stand on its own. There would have to be American military presence and drone strikes over the next 100 years together with billions more of 'investments' (read bribes) and would only be able to maintain the status quo at best. The American public have been fleeced by a military-industrial complex so entrenched in the its governments workings, that the propaganda of its success in creating a stable liberal democratic Afghanistan was actually believed by even its higher officials.

Absolute cultists or immoral opportunists. Kind of like the opportunists descending on the last chapter of this farce for political gain.

[Doug64]

@SpecialOlympian, yes, I'm sure Rylee McCollum's mother found the pointless death of her son just before the birth of his child "hilarious."

SO preaches the truth. When the Afghan government collapses with this speed there is only one conclusion; it was a deeply unpopular American puppet regime that could never stand on its own.

Or alternatively, the Afghan government had a military that was accustomed to working in coordination with US air forces, and lacked the training to maintain its own air assets. From what I heard (unverified), the Biden administration wasn't permitting the private contractors the Afghans tried to hire into the country, and the Afghans were reduced to trying the get maintenance guidance over Zoom. And of course, there's the "last death in a losing war" morale aspect.

[late]

Or alternatively, the Afghan government had a military that was accustomed to working in coordination with US air forces, and lacked the training to maintain its own air assets. From what I heard (unverified), the Biden administration wasn't permitting the private contractors the Afghans tried to hire into the country, and the Afghans were reduced to trying the get maintenance guidance over Zoom. And of course, there's the "last death in a losing war" morale aspect.

A lot of their army existed only on paper, somebody was pocketing the pay...

Pay and even food had stopped happening in some places.

It was a house of cards, first gust of wind, and it comes down...

It's clear it would have been even worse if Trump was in charge. Losing is never fun, and rarely pretty, but did you really want us to stay forever??

[Rancid]

CUT AND RUN JOE!!

[SpecialOlympian]

@SpecialOlympian, yes, I'm sure Rylee McCollum's mother found the pointless death of her son just before the birth of his child "hilarious."

I voted illegitimately for Biden and I think it's pretty funny. I mean, I think it owns that not only did I steal the election but I killed her son too. I straight up stole this dumb bitch's country and her son from her, I'm unstoppable.

I want to be on record for this: I take full ownership of personally killing her son and I am proud of it. I hope the rest of you know better than to cross me now or I'll do the same to you. I am a Biden voter and I control life and death.

[colliric]

I voted illegitimately for Biden and I think it's pretty funny. I mean, I think it owns that not only did I steal the election but I killed her son too. I straight up stole this dumb bitch's country and her son from her, I'm unstoppable.

I want to be on record for this: I take full ownership of personally killing her son and I am proud of it. I hope the rest of you know better than to cross me now or I'll do the same to you. I am a Biden voter and I control life and death.

[Politics_Observer]

@Doug64

You give Bin Laden way too much credit. I don't believe for a minute that they expected the US and our allies to actually invade the Taliban--for damn sure the Taliban didn't, or they'd have turfed Al-Qaeda out on their ear before 9-11 ever happened.

You REALLY under-estimate our foes. This a good way to have a hard fall under-estimating our foes and not understanding your enemy. Invading Afghanistan was precisely what Bin Laden wanted us to do. He knew we wouldn't invade Afghanistan unless we were provoked with a very good reason for doing so. The 9/11 terrorist attack was that reason. The strategy was infection (infect an unstable country with their presence by getting on the locals good side and then setting up terrorist camps), provocation (use terrorism to provoke the US into invading), draw the U.S. in and then protract out the conflict to exhaust the U.S. by forcing the U.S. to spend a bunch of money over a long period of time in a long drawn out occupation that's expensive for little value in return.

Our foes know that in a direct face to face match, they will lose. So, their strategy was an asymmetric indirect approach centered around drawing the U.S. into a trap, protracting out the conflict and getting the U.S. to spend a bunch of money over an extended period of years to ultimately exhaust the U.S. Terrorists are evil but many of them are well educated and not stupid. However, the Taliban might not have been aware of Al-Qaeda's goal or intentions or the fact they were being used by Al-Qaeda. I can't say for sure though if the Taliban was aware of Al-Qaeda's intentions to draw the U.S. into Afghanistan. But there is no doubt in my mind that Al-Qaeda's goal was to draw us into a trap by provoking us into invading Afghanistan as part of an exhaustion strategy.