[Crantag]

Of course it is a loophole. Unless Oregon has shit loads of 14 year olds working it is a loophole. I suspect this law was mainly to allow children to do a paper round or to help their father on the farm. Not so McDonald's can get round not paying their staff correctly.

There is actually no age limit on family farm work, at least not here in Oregon.

Your 9 year old son can drive a tractor on the farm, here in Oregon.

It is basically unregulated, to my understanding

[XogGyux]

Arbitrary means without reason or logic. I said they are human constructs and they are human constructs with logic and reason I might add. And the reason is to protect children from things like child labor laws amongst other things. So perhaps actually pick up a dictionary up once in a while.

What is the study by which the humans decided with logic and reason that 18, rather than 17, or 19, or 20 or 16 or 17 and 6 months should be the exact age of adulthood and why a 17 + 364 years of age is any different from a fully "matured" 18 years old. Please reference that dictionary that you have that states this unequivocal truth of adulthood that I am unaware of.

Of course it is a loophole. Unless Oregon has shit loads of 14 year olds working it is a loophole. I suspect this law was mainly to allow children to do a paper round or to help their father on the farm. Not so McDonald's can get round not paying their staff correctly.

No, it is not a loophole.
A loohole is:

In a loophole, a law addressing a certain issue exists, but can be legally circumvented due to a technical defect in the law, like when it is not specified.

Like I said. The law specifically addresses and allows for this. It is not a loophole.
You might argue it is a bad law, you might argue that you don't like it. But it is not a loophole.
Pick up one of those dictionaries that you were telling me about earlier.

[B0ycey]

@Crantag

I suspect the reason you don't see 14 year olds working is because they don't. It appears in the UK 13 year olds can work but they don't, or not that I have witnessed. Which then goes to the term loophole that Oxy has a problem with. McDonald's never normally hired minors and now they do. And it has made the news here, so it must be making waves somewhere in America for that to happen. So somewhere in America there are people who are having a problem with this. Not everyone thinks being 18 is arbitrary. But even so, I only wanted to explain to lurkers what cooperations will do to maximise profits. I didn’t expect someone to have a hissy that his latte might go up a few cents.

[B0ycey]

@XogGyux

You are now ranting. I don't think anything you have written is a reply to anything I wrote. You still haven't explained whether you think Minors should be treated as adults.

As for loopholes, loopholes are by definition legal. Whether 14 year olds can work legally doesn't change the fact it is a loophole. I doubt the law was designed for McDonald's to under pay their staff and it may not have been to allow children to work at all per se but to let them do work in specific areas that weren't in direct competition of the labor force.

[Crantag]

@Crantag

I suspect the reason you don't see 14 year olds working is because they don't. It appears in the UK 13 year olds can work but they don't, or not that I have witnessed. Which then goes to the term loophole that Oxy has a problem with. McDonald's never normally hired minors and now they do. And it has made the news here, so it must be making waves somewhere in America for that to happen. So somewhere in America there are people who are having a problem with this. Not everyone thinks being 18 is arbitrary. But even so, I only wanted to explain to lurkers what cooperations will do to maximise profits. I didn’t expect someone to have a hissy that his latte might go up a few cents.

Yeah, this isn't a big issue that I care about really, I am chiming in because I am in Oregon, and so I'd might as well post on it.

I also don't know a lot about this, but back in high school, I definitely knew at least one guy that worked at mcdonalds at about 16. I knew another guy who pumped gas, and another guy who worked at the retirement home as a dish washer. Etc.

When I worked, it was under the table, construction and landscaping.

Although, I have in my days pumped plenty of gas, and scrubbed plenty of dishes, just not in high school.

I guess given the state of the staffing shortages here, I can see how it could be where the fastfood chains are actively seeking to recruit teenagers, and I can see how there are problematic elements to this, when considered as a policy shift.

[Politics_Observer]

@Rancid

I started work at 16 years old at Taco Bell when I was in high school worked there for 2 years until I graduated high school and went off to college in a different area of the state I currently live in.

[XogGyux]

@XogGyux

You are now ranting. I don't think anything you have written is a reply to anything I wrote.

Oh, now I am ranting.
Again, I am still waiting for that study that shows that 18 is the absolute time at which someone becomes an adult. This is the third time I request that you post this .

You still haven't explained whether you think Minors should be treated as adults.

What I think is mostly irrelevant in this case.
Minors and adults are something that is defined, legally. The law also stipulates that these two populations are treated differently, in terms of protection, in terms of their obligations, rights, etc.
The actual number is an arbitrary one. We are not aware of any biological process that stipulates that 18 years, (216 months or 6570 days) is of any biological significance that would warrant this being the "age of majority" or "adulthood". In fact, many countries have much different age of majority, ranging from 15 years old to 21 years old. It is in fact an arbitrary number.
As for what I think? I told you that I believe it is irrelevant, however, I'll share it with you. As a member of society, I tentatively accept the paradigm of 18 years of age as a cutoff. It is an arbitrary cutoff nonetheless, there is nothing "magical" that happens on the 365th day after you turn 17.

Whether 14 year olds can work legally doesn't change the fact it is a loophole.

Again, it is not a loophole. The laws and regulations specifically address minors' labor and stipulate the rules of engagement. It is in fact, a law, not a loophole.
A loophole would be if the law said "No minor should work" and then you had Mcdonalds arranging for fake weddings to emancipate childrens to make them work "legally" because they are "no longer minors". That would be an example of a minor. In this case this is the law, not a loophole. Again, you might disagree with it or dislike it, but it is not a loophole. You should take your advise and consult that dictionary that you were talking about.

[XogGyux]

@Rancid

I started work at 16 years old at Taco Bell when I was in high school worked there for 2 years until I graduated high school and went off to college in a different area of the state I currently live in.

Do you consider yourself being a victim of child labor exploitation?

[Politics_Observer]

@XogGyux

No not at all. To me it was about being responsible.

[wat0n]

Sure. But that doesn't mean it is right. America is a divided country. And fair pay is the only thing that can address the wealth divide.

Maybe, but should this extend to banning teens from working?

Ironically often the countries that are seen as examples for moving towards some sort of "fair pay" are those where children younger than teens do work. An example:

[Puffer Fish]

There is actually no age limit on family farm work, at least not here in Oregon.

Your 9 year old son can drive a tractor on the farm, here in Oregon.

It is basically unregulated, to my understanding

And you have a problem with that?


(Look, I could see there might be some rare extreme cases of overwork, but in those cases it might be prosecuted as child abuse)

Not everything that goes on on a family farm needs to be regulated.

[B0ycey]

[quote="XogGyux"]Oh, now I am ranting.
Again, I am still waiting for that study that shows that 18 is the absolute time at which someone becomes an adult. This is the third time I request that you post this .[/quote]

Well it must be the third time I have told you it is a human construct and as such we dictate the term of the meaning of those words. And this must be the tenth time I have asked you whether you think minors should be treated as adults. I can only assume you are a pedo at this point sicko.

The rest of your post is complete rubbish because this thread was all about pay and conditions not your sicko fantasies.

[XogGyux]

Well it must be the third time I have told you it is a human construct and as such we dictate the term of the meaning of those words.

@B0ycey So... In other words, Arbitrary...

I can only assume you are a pedo at this point sicko.

Really?
You are pulling a Musk now? Someone say something you don't like and all of the sudden they are "pedos"?
By that logic, you are a murderous rapist nazi.
Sicko.

[B0ycey]

@B0ycey So... In other words, Arbitrary...

Arbitaty doesn't mean Human construct. In fact given that ages have limits and the terms minor and adult have meaning along with there being a logical reason to distinguish between these criteria, that by definition means the terms are ANYTHING BUT ARBITARY. It isn't my fault you don't know what the word means. But you STILL haven't actually answered the question I have asked 11 times. Should minors and adults be treated equally? In other words, should these terms be Arbitrary. I only ask because you seem to have came across this word and use it all the time.

Also given we have someone in Oregon who says 14 year olds working isn't common and McDonald's is using this law that I suspect wasn't for them to use in principle, that is what is known as a loophole. But rather than me keep on repeating the same shit that has absolutely nothing to do with the thread over and over again, how about writing something about pay an conditions and why people don't want to work for McDonald's for once rather than talk about whether someone who is 17 and 363 days should be treated as a minor or not.

[XogGyux]

Arbitaty doesn't mean Human construct. In fact given that ages have limits and the terms minor and adult have meaning along with there being a logical reason to distinguish between these criteria, that by definition means the terms are ANYTHING BUT ARBITARY.

Ok. Then you shouldn't have any trouble showing me what is the specific reason why this age is chosen in each of these countries.
The fourth time I am asking for this information btw, but who is counting.

But you STILL haven't actually answered the question I have asked 11 times. Should minors and adults be treated equally?

You are mistaken, I did actually answer this for you prior.

As for what I think? I told you that I believe it is irrelevant, however, I'll share it with you. As a member of society, I tentatively accept the paradigm of 18 years of age as a cutoff. It is an arbitrary cutoff nonetheless, there is nothing "magical" that happens on the 365th day after you turn 17.

But I'll elaborate further for clarification. Most "reasonable people" would agree that an 8 year old is a minor and a 30 year old is an adult. The shit gets a bit murky when you try to define a cutoff. A few people in their mid-late teens can have the character development, maturity, knowledge, wisdom to behave like any other adult. Likewise, you can have shitheads in the early twenties that despite having hair in their privates for 10 years or more still behave like kids. As a matter of practicality, many countries/jurisdictions have ARBITRARY NUMBERS cutoff that define age of majority, and/or any other sort of rights and/or obligations for the individual (such as drinking age for instance).

Also given we have someone in Oregon who says 14 year olds working isn't common and McDonald's is using this law that I suspect wasn't for them to use in principle, that is what is known as a loophole.

What is common or not is irrelevant to whether something is a loophole or not.
When I was 18 years old it was not common for me to contribute for my 401k. It does not mean that now I am employing a loophole to contribute to the 401k. You seem to be making shit up as you walk.

But rather than me keep on repeating the same shit that has absolutely nothing to do with the thread over and over again, how about writing something about pay an conditions and why people don't want to work for McDonald's for once rather than talk about whether someone who is 17 and 363 days should be treated as a minor or not.

You have this all wrong. For one, McDonad's might be able to fill a few hours of service with this tactic, this is not going to be any substantial part of their labor force or any of that crap, specially given these employees have a very narrow/strict times that they can operate. Furthermore, as a company, I doubt that they are very happy with the prospect of having a substantial part of their workforce being minors (it can have scandalous/legal implications when inevitable you start having the common "HR" complaints of sexual harassment etc, especially when these implicate minors). Without knowing all the tiddbits of what is transpiring, I suspect there is more to the story than what it is reporting. For instance, perhaps the jobs being offered are not attracting traditional employees because of weird hours or part-time status.
That being said. My first job was for $8 an hour. Granted, it was 10 years ago, so inflation has pushed that a bit, but even then, $15 for what is essentially just moving shit around is not some sort of "minor abuse" or any of that crap.

McDonald's for once rather than talk about whether someone who is 17 and 363 days should be treated as a minor or not.

If people don't want to walk for mcdonalds that is their choice. I simply don't care if they don't want to work for them. Quit. It is simple.

[XogGyux]

@XogGyux

No not at all. To me it was about being responsible.

I agree. I enjoyed it. I had my own car, I had my own money on my wallet. I bought my own computer with my own money, my own piano, my own gas. I had freedom. I learned how to deal with other people. I learned about workplace drama from early on (so now it does not bother me nearly as much). I learned when to say no to "bosses's requests". Frankly, It prepared me for life better than my 4 year of university/college did, while paying me $$ instead of ramping up my student debt. I think teenagers should do some work. I don't think they should be dropping out of school, or skipping college/university and doing this "instead of" but I think it should be an "in addition of".
But I guess in @B0ycey 's word this would be akin child abuse and pedophillia

[Rancid]

I agree. I enjoyed it. I had my own car, I had my own money on my wallet. I bought my own computer with my own money, my own piano, my own gas. I had freedom. I learned how to deal with other people. I learned about workplace drama from early on (so now it does not bother me nearly as much). I learned when to say no to "bosses's requests". Frankly, It prepared me for life better than my 4 year of university/college did, while paying me $$ instead of ramping up my student debt. I think teenagers should do some work. I don't think they should be dropping out of school, or skipping college/university and doing this "instead of" but I think it should be an "in addition of".
But I guess in @B0ycey 's word this would be akin child abuse and pedophillia

yea, my high school work experience was also positive. That was my first experience in what bad leadership looks like. Also what good leadership looks like. As well as dealing with people that basically don't want to compromise. I had a horrible boss too. Still, I was able to build my dream machine computer with the money I made.

[B0ycey]

@XogGyux

McDonald's wasn't getting enough applications until they hired minors. This isn't about getting a few hours here or there. It is about filling vacant positions. But if minors are working, they aren't studying. And I suspect the children doing these jobs aren't from affluent families either. They perhaps are from poor families who need extra cash. This is also an issue with low pay and in particular the minimum wage.

What we know for sure is that McDonald's was not hiring minors before and now they are because they are using a law that was barely used before or in the spirit of it to their advantage. I am not going to discuss the term loophole because that is what it is and you seem to think it isn't. Whatever. I however don't think this is right. Children at 14 should be studying and playing. I don't think they should be working. But what really annoys me is big business like McDonald's who make vast profits would rather try and find away to keep their maximum profits despite their workforce rather than address why people think the job they offer is shit.

[Politics_Observer]

@XogGyux

Army life paid my way through college and kept me debt free. But I served because I really wanted to and not just merely for the college money. It was just icing on the cake. But I learned, that the college money wasn't an easy or free benefit. They just don't give you that college money. Or at least they didn't in my case serving in the infantry during a time of war. However, I think my college benefits were more generous than most peacetime veterans given my war time service. But if you are infantry in war time, you will earn every penny of that college money. They aren't just going to give it to you, that's for sure. In my experience, there isn't such thing as a free or easy money or benefits.

[XogGyux]

@XogGyux

McDonald's wasn't getting enough applications until they hired minors. This isn't about getting a few hours here or there. It is about filling vacant positions. But if minors are working, they aren't studying. And I suspect the children doing these jobs aren't from affluent families either. They perhaps are from poor families who need extra cash. This is also an issue with low pay and in particular the minimum wage.

What we know for sure is that McDonald's was not hiring minors before and now they are because they are using a law that was barely used before or in the spirit of it to their advantage. I am not going to discuss the term loophole because that is what it is and you seem to think it isn't. Whatever. I however don't think this is right. Children at 14 should be studying and playing. I don't think they should be working. But what really annoys me is big business like McDonald's who make vast profits would rather try and find away to keep their maximum profits despite their workforce rather than address why people think the job they offer is shit.

If you have read my posts before, it should not come to you as a surprise that I am a strong advocate of higher education and that I would support/encourage anything that would go towards that goal. However, like I said earlier, I think this is mostly a McNothingburger. I am very skeptic that this would in any way depress the interest of youth to pursue further learning. I don't think anyone ever said "sweet gig, im getting $15 at McDonalds, I can now quit school, get mad cash at McDonalds and cruise until retirement" Furthermore, for minors, the hours are very restricted and for Mcdonalds, they simply won't have decent coverage if a substantial part of their workforce are minors.
Like I said prior, I suspect there is more to the story than transpire here.

and playing

Surprising. I guess what capitalism is really lacking is a bunch of teenagers playing As if we didn't have enough of that.

@XogGyux

Army life paid my way through college and kept me debt free. But I served because I really wanted to and not just merely for the college money. It was just icing on the cake. But I learned, that the college money wasn't an easy or free benefit. They just don't give you that college money. Or at least they didn't in my case serving in the infantry during a time of war. However, I think my college benefits were more generous than most peacetime veterans given my war time service. But if you are infantry in war time, you will earn every penny of that college money. They aren't just going to give it to you, that's for sure. In my experience, there isn't such thing as a free or easy money or benefits.

I am a fan of "The white coat investor" podcast. He always says something regarding the military plan to pay for studies which I agree with. You don't get out with a "money debt" but you get out with a "time debt". Refering to the time investment that you have to commit. This is not a bad thing, specially if you want a career in the military.