[B0ycey]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58414597

It is legal for 14 year old in Oregon to work apparently which in itself might surprise people. But McDonald's are so desperate for staff they are actively asking for 14 year old to work for them. So much for the innocence of youth. Capitalism has no limits and profits before morals it seems. This shortage of course is perhaps linked to the fact that working in a fast food restaurant is shit pay and high demanding. But rather than address why adults aren't applying, they have decided to employ minors. Crazy.

[wat0n]

That would probably be legal as a part time job in the UK

[B0ycey]

That would probably be legal as a part time job in the UK

Can't work in the UK without an NI number. You don't get that till you're sixteen.

[XogGyux]

This smells like a nothingburger.
The main issue with child labor is countries that have no laws and minors end up being exploited working long hours for shit salaries.

This is not the same as a minor that works a few hours part-time on a mcdonalds.

This is not a loophole, this is our laws.
Frankly, I don't think there is much wrong with them. There are limits of the sort of jobs that can be done, and which days, and at what times of the day.
Introduces adolescents to the adult world, something schools are woefully prepared to in the US and parents oftentimes neglect.
There is nothing "magical" about the age of 18. This is an arbitrary number.
Don't try to equate this with a bunch of 9-year-olds cutting the fabrics for making pokemon underwear in Honduras. This constant outrage for "everything that capitalism does sucks" is silly. For one, I was FORCED to do hard labor, under the sun in agricultural cuba since I was even younger than 14yold.

[B0ycey]

There is nothing "magical" about the age of 18. This is an arbitrary number.

Would you make the same statement if the debate changes tone. I suspect not. If you accept that a 14 year old is a child whilst and 18 year old is not, that number is not arbitrary to you.

But actually this thread was not about child exploitation, you made it about that. I don't think a 14 year old should be working but studying but even so, that was not the point of the thread. The point was that McDonald's has decided to hire minors rather than address the reason people aren't applying for the job. That is a sad aspect of Capitalism and an issue of fair pay and conditions, but fuck that. Let's talk about you are OK to send a 14 to work because you think 18 is an arbitrary number. Your words, not mine.

[XogGyux]

Would you make the same statement if the debate changes tone. I suspect not. If you accept that a 14 year old is a child whilst and 18 year old is not, that number is not arbitrary to you.

But actually this thread was not about child exploitation, you made it about that. I don't think a 14 year old should be working but studying but even so, that was not the point of the thread. The point was that McDonald's has decided to hire minors rather than address the reason people aren't applying for the job. That is a sad aspect of Capitalism and an issue of fair pay and conditions, but fuck that. Let's talk about you are OK to send a 14 to work because you think 18 is an arbitrary number. Your words, not mine.

Read the title that YOU chose. You made it about it.
Again, there is nothing wrong with a teenager working per se. Exploitation is wrong whether on a child or on an adult. I agree it is more visceral and heinous when exploitation is on a minor, but again, this is not it.
Furthermore, YOU are the one making it a political issue, bringing the "capitalism is doing such and such". I am telling you, the alternative is far less nuanced than you think. The whole motto of communist cuba is that "Marti said, the man is forged on labor" and under that pretext the cuban goverment has sent hundreds of thousands if not millions of kids to perform hard labor, often time under dangerous conditions.
You are swimming in murky waters.

[B0ycey]

Read the title that YOU chose. You made it about it.

I have. Did you? It says loophole. Not exploitation. A loophole is a term to explain getting around something. In this case, hiring minors instead of addressing why people aren't applying. As it happens, I think hiring a 14 year old is a form of exploitation given the child should be more concerned with the studies and I don't think 18 is an arbitrary age. But the topic wasn't about that. It was about low pay and conditions.

Furthermore, YOU are the one making it a political issue, bringing the "capitalism is doing such and such". I am telling you, the alternative is far less nuanced than you think. The whole motto of communist cuba is that "Marti said, the man is forged on labor" and under that pretext the cuban goverment has sent hundreds of thousands if not millions of kids to perform hard labor, often time under dangerous conditions.
You are swimming in murky waters.

I am making it political because we are on a political forum. What McDonald's is doing is within the legal framework because they don't want to address an issue. They wouldn't hire 14 year old had people of working age applied. They didn't and that wasn't addressed so they instead wanted minors. And it wasn't address because it would cost them profits and as such it has everything to do with Capitalism. Had profits not been a factor, McDonald's would pay even more and make their staff have better working conditions and have additional benefits.

As for Cuba, I haven't mentioned Cuba. Had this McDonald's been in Cuba and made our headlines, I would be making the same thread. Child labor instead of better working conditions isn't right in Cuba either.

[wat0n]

Can't work in the UK without an NI number. You don't get that till you're sixteen.

https://www.gov.uk/child-employment

[B0ycey]

https://www.gov.uk/child-employment

The three areas just mean we can have child actors and models. You can't work at McDonald's without an NI number.

[wat0n]

The three areas just mean we can have child actors and models. You can't work at McDonald's without an NI number.

You misread, it's the other way around:

Minimum ages children can work
Part-time work
The youngest age a child can work part-time is 13, except children involved in areas like:

television
theatre
modelling
Children working in these areas will need a performance licence.

[B0ycey]

You misread, it's the other way around:

Well that just means the UK is just as fucked up as America. Thankfully I don't see any children working in our fast food restaurants and I suspect we would have an uproar if they did. I also don't know how a 13 year old can work in the UK given you need an NI number. But I do find it ironic that two migrants in America don't seem to want to talk about shit pay and conditions in America when migrants do in fact suffer from exploitation.

[XogGyux]

I have. Did you? It says loophole. Not exploitation. A loophole is a term to explain getting around something. In this case, hiring minors instead of addressing why people aren't applying. As it happens, I think hiring a 14 year old is a form of exploitation given the child should be more concerned with the studies and I don't think 18 is an arbitrary age.

Precisely. First, it is not a loophole, it is our labor laws. A loophole is when there is some sort of ambiguity that allows someone to "legally" do something for which the spirit of the law was not meant to allow. This is not that. Furthermore, the overall tone of your post and the words you used made it quite clear what your intentions were, but if that was not enough, you just confirmed on this sentence what I just said.
What studies? What study out there says that an 18-year-old is an adult and a 17 one is a minor? I am very curious to find out what you have to say.

I am making it political because we are on a political forum.

That is completely fine and understanding. But when you point out this as a "weakness" of capitalism, then I will have to point out that the alternatives that have existed until this point are just as bad if not worse. This is not a feature of Capitalism, this is a feature of the human race, unfortunately. Not everyone measures up to your expectations of what a good human being should be.

They wouldn't hire 14 year old had people of working age applied. They didn't and that wasn't addressed so they instead wanted minors. And it wasn't address because it would cost them profits and as such it has everything to do with Capitalism.

Or they would have put robots/machines and get rid of the human aspect altogether. Either way you are not gonna be happy with whatever they do.
The fact is, the "Mcdonald job" is a shit job, it is no a coincidence that "you are a burger flipper" is used as an insult rather than a compliment on someone's work ethic. Now, I have no problems with someone doing the hard work, but, but don't expect good wages from a work that basically calls for you to follow a couple of pre-scripted steps, over and over, and over. Again, respects to every worker, my first job was not glamorous either, I worked during my 4 years of colleges on the storage room of a retail company and my work essentially was to put the merchandise that came in shipping boxes into the storage shelves, a job that a well trained monkey could do. This is not a job that was worth $15 no matter who was doing it.

There is often more to the story than what makes it to the print word. That being said, I don't see the outrage for a business to open their hiring to comply with the full spectrum of applicants that the law allows for. Furthermore, I don't think the law is particularly "unfair".

McDonald's would pay even more and make their staff have better working conditions and have additional benefits.

Yeah, and the latte would be $20 instead of $9 .

As for Cuba, I haven't mentioned Cuba. Had this McDonald's been in Cuba and made our headlines, I would be making the same thread. Child labor instead of better working conditions isn't right in Cuba either.

No you didn't. But you were lamenting about capitalism. I wonder what other system you had in mind... Feudalism?

[wat0n]

Well that just means the UK is just as fucked up as America. Thankfully I don't see any children working in our fast food restaurants and I suspect we would have an uproar if they did. I also don't know how a 13 year old can work in the UK given you need an NI number. But I do find it ironic that two migrants in America don't seem to want to talk about shit pay and conditions in America when migrants do in fact suffer from exploitation.

Because we come from societies where workers earn less than you do, and with a current situation or recent past where child labor's common.

[B0ycey]

What studies? What study out there says that an 18-year-old is an adult and a 17 one is a minor? I am very curious to find out what you have to say.

Adult and minor are human constructs. We decide the meaning and as such we set out the rules. But you seem to be saying that minors and adults should be treated the same. Is that position?

Also, if McDonald's is a "Shit Job" that nobody wants to do, please explain why $15 isn't worth it? It is a job nobody wants to do. You pay more for that to entice work. You don't hire minors. Or you shouldn't unless you exploit the law that isn't in the spirit. That is called a loophole I might add.

[B0ycey]

Because we come from societies where workers earn less than you do, and with a current situation or recent past where child labor's common.

Sure. But that doesn't mean it is right. America is a divided country. And fair pay is the only thing that can address the wealth divide.

[Politics_Observer]

Part of what divides America is the fact some people have excessive privilege and power in addition to a wealth gap. This drives polarization and division. Too much of anything is bad.

[XogGyux]

Adult and minor are human constructs. We decide the meaning and as such we set out the rules.

That is precisely what I said. Arbitrary.

Also, if McDonald's is a "Shit Job" that nobody wants to do, please explain why $15 isn't worth it? It is a job nobody wants to do. You pay more for that to entice work. You don't hire minors. Or you shouldn't unless you exploit the law that isn't in the spirit. That is called a loophole I might add.

It is not a loophole.
https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youth ... quirements
It is the actual law, the spirit of the law is clear.
A loophole would be a law that does not consider "work done for a parent" as actual work, and you get a family that puts all their kids "to work" assembling electronics for sale, that would be a loophole.

please explain why $15 isn't worth it?

I don't have to. The fact that the labor force is not biting the bait and/or they have to resort to low-skilled individuals like presumably, high schoolers are, is evidence.

Your outrage is misplaced and you missing the big picture because you are focused on the political aspects and implications of this news. The reality is that this is far worse and not remotely for the things that you are saying.
Think about it. we are on a pandemic, the vaccines are not approved for the age group that this is targetting. Teenagers have never been known for their sanitary predispositions and they are handling food that a lot of people are going to eat. This sounds like the script for a poorly made apocalyptic movie.
It is a bad idea for OTHER reasons than the ones you mentioned. I am quite fine with teenagers having a few hours of part-time job at low skill-requirement employment so long it is safe (I wouldn't particularly like a 15yold handling the deep fryers for instance, but It wouldn't bother me a bit if they are taking orders and filling up soda glasses, that is, appart from the fact that they are fking disease vectors ).

[B0ycey]

That is precisely what I said. Arbitrary.

Arbitrary means without reason or logic. I said they are human constructs and they are human constructs with logic and reason I might add. And the reason is to protect children from things like child labor laws amongst other things. So perhaps actually pick up a dictionary up once in a while.

It is not a loophole.
https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youth ... quirements
It is the actual law, the spirit of the law is clear.
A loophole would be a law that does not consider "work done for a parent" as actual work, and you get a family that puts all their kids "to work" assembling electronics for sale, that would be a loophole.

Of course it is a loophole. Unless Oregon has shit loads of 14 year olds working it is a loophole. I suspect this law was mainly to allow children to do a paper round or to help their father on the farm. Not so McDonald's can get round not paying their staff correctly.

I don't have to. The fact that the labor force is not biting the bait and/or they have to resort to low-skilled individuals like presumably, high schoolers are is evidence.

Your outrage is misplaced and you missing the big picture because you are focused on the political aspects and implications of this news. The reality is that this is far worse and not remotely for the things that you are saying.
Think about it. we are on a pandemic, the vaccines are not approved for the age group that this is targetting. Teenagers have never been known for their sanitary predispositions and they are handling food that a lot of people are going to eat. This sounds like the script for a poorly made apocalyptic movie.
It is a bad idea for OTHER reasons than the ones you mentioned. I am quite fine with teenagers having a few hours of part-time job at low skill-requirement employment so long it is safe (I wouldn't particularly like a 15yold handling the deep fryers for instance, but It wouldn't bother me a bit if they are taking orders and filling up soda glasses, that is, appart from the fact that they are fking disease vectors ).

What do you mean you don't have to. If people don't want to do the job because it is shit and the pay is shit then they should pay more and make the job better. The cost of your latte doesn't fucking matter. If you don't like paying $20 then that reduces custom and as such the rate of work and the amount of employment opportunities. It is the invisible hand at work. You don't hire minors so you can maximise profits. I don't think you grasp that simple logic that jobs that don't appeal need to pay more. In fact if you were in the UK you would understand this concept today given we have a labor shortage. Jobs in high demand right now are currently offering start up bonuses and 40% pay increases. Why? Because they were once shit jobs that Eastern European did and now they have to entice people to do these jobs somehow.

[Rancid]

I don't know what the laws are in Oregon, but I there are typically laws around when a minor can work, and for how long. For example, when I had a job while I was in high school. I was limited to 20 hours a week, and was not allowed to work during school hours. If I remember right, I was also not allowed to work past 11PM. I was 17 at the time though.

I did work with my uncle, an electrician, when I was 14-15 though. that was under the table though. I only did occasional weekends for that.

My brother would also pay me to wash his car.

In America, fewer and fewer teens are getting jobs now. Even summer jobs are in decline with teens.

[Crantag]

Adult and minor are human constructs. We decide the meaning and as such we set out the rules. But you seem to be saying that minors and adults should be treated the same. Is that position?

Also, if McDonald's is a "Shit Job" that nobody wants to do, please explain why $15 isn't worth it? It is a job nobody wants to do. You pay more for that to entice work. You don't hire minors. Or you shouldn't unless you exploit the law that isn't in the spirit. That is called a loophole I might add.

I'm in Southern Oregon.

I have never considered that much about the labor law which allows 14 year olds to work, but have always known it to be a thing here, though.

But, I don't think I have ever actually seen a 14 year old working.

A lot of jobs (like pumping gas) require you to be 16, and generally, it is relatively rare to find anyone that young working, but the other day, the guy bagging my groceries was bantering with the cashier, and he said he was 16, and she mentioned she was 19, in the context of their banter.

Anyway, you know me, being a stickler for accuracy and stuff.

The fastfood restaurants here are all flying signs, seeking workers, and the advertised rate is $15 an hour.

I drive doordash sometimes, so I go to these places, and everywhere is very short staffed, and everywhere in town, all sorts of businesses, are flying hiring signs.

Just filling in some details with some on-the-ground reporting from here.

Southern Oregon has always been economically depressed, but things are not good here these days.

Hell, maybe I should go apply at mcdonalds, have actually thought about it lately, hah.

People sleeping on the sidewalk outside of supermarkets or banks is not an uncommon sight here, these days.

The rent is too damned high, and there is big-time housing shortages, and we've never really had it that good here, anyway.

There is a divide here, and a lot of gentrification. Mostly from the Californians coming with their outside money; it is difficult to live here on a local salary/wages, which is never the way a community should be functioning.

But, I am from here, so I got nowhere to go, particularly.