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#15197794
Puffer Fish wrote:To have the best fresh start and clean slate and do things right, why not build new cities.


Puffer Fish wrote:My point is that you're not going to get a big city starting from scratch, starting with a blank slate.


These two sentences seem to contradict themselves.

————————-

Puffer Fish wrote:This is not development of a new city, but transformation of a city into a more densely populated area with higher buildings and very different character.


Puffer Fish wrote:For one thing, the type of people already living there would not want the area to change into a higher density city.


These two sentences also seem to contradict themselves.
#15197837
Puffer Fish wrote:My point was that "the city" would simply move to another city, right next to it or close by.

You are describing the mindset behind many suburbs when you write this. A new city next door.

Sprawled subdivisions are examples of cities being "moved" to a nearby location, where they can be "improved" instaneously by experts.

The improvement of suburbia is roads and parking lots everywhere, and lots of space between the houses and activities. This "improves" the city by making driving a car easier. This is pretty well the only improvement, but cars were heavily advertised (as was suburbia) in the post-war period - especially since TV started in the late 50s.

On the other hand, I agree that the suburbs should mostly be removed, de-constructed, and returned to nature and farmland.

But the new housing for the ex-suburbanites needs to be built near already existing infrastructure. In other words, back to traditional urbanism because it is FAR LESS WASTEFUL and allows for people to live within walking range of their homes. (or cycling range, or electric train range... depending on city size).
#15198070
QatzelOk wrote:You are describing the mindset behind many suburbs when you write this. A new city next door.

Yeah, sorry. I still think you are missing my point.

QatzelOk wrote:Sprawled subdivisions are examples of cities being "moved" to a nearby location, where they can be "improved" instaneously by experts.

Didn't I just explain why that's not really practical, or at least very problematic?

I think it would just be too complicated to explain to you all the problems inherent to trying to transform a suburb area into a dense city, and why even if that was done the resulting city would end up with many permanent and long-lasting problems.

It's easier to create the correct street layout, lot size, and establish correct zoning, when a city is being newly created.

QatzelOk wrote:On the other hand, I agree that the suburbs should mostly be removed, de-constructed, and returned to nature and farmland.

Please show me one example of where that has ever happened, besides from collapsed civilizations.
(Converting a few vacant lots into urban farms is not what I am talking about)
#15198080
Puffer Fish wrote:It's easier to create the correct street layout, lot size, and establish correct zoning, when a city is being newly created.


Can you provide an example of this being done where the end result is better than adapting existing cities?

I find it hard to believe that this has ever been done, simply because of the requirements of a city, and the fact that most (perhaps all) decent locations for cities have been taken.
#15198212
Puffer Fish wrote:I think it would just be too complicated to explain to you all the problems inherent to trying to transform a suburb area into a dense city,


I never asked for that. I said they should be deconstructed exactly because they're unsalvagable because of their street layout and lot sizes.

It's easier to create the correct street layout, lot size, and establish correct zoning, when a city is being newly created.

There are already existing cities with the layouts already in place. Building new ones and letting these rot is the kind of waste that your Modern parents indulged in. There's no more resources to waste at this scale.

Please show me one example of where that has ever happened, besides from collapsed civilizations.
(Converting a few vacant lots into urban farms is not what I am talking about)

Our civilization is in pre-collapse, so I am proposing abandoning the wasteful maintenance of suburbia by rebuilding city density in already existing urban areas.
By late
#15198288
Puffer Fish wrote:
I think it would just be too complicated to explain to you all the problems inherent to trying to transform a suburb area into a dense city, and why even if that was done the resulting city would end up with many permanent and long-lasting problems.



You haven't worked the problem.

There are literally hundreds of things we can do, and that need doing. The first step is a Carbon Tax. The genius of a Carbon Tax is that it lets the genius of capitalism do a lot of the hard work. My links below are basic changes that can make cities and suburbs better places to live, and more energy efficient. Europe has shown us that significant gains can be had quickly, and without the drama you inject to nearly everything.

https://www.amazon.com/Walkable-City-Downtown-Save-America/dp/0865477728/ref=sr_1_1?crid=190C5TRA0TTTN&keywords=walkable+city&qid=1637072721&qsid=131-4556309-4521855&sprefix=walkabl%2Caps%2C203&sr=8-1&sres=0865477728%2C1610918983%2CB00D5Z1KHY%2CB08XQVTL5F%2CB079Y5K5VR%2CB005MM7JKA%2C0358126606%2C0374534888%2C1119564816%2CB07GQ1FQFX%2C0071376755%2CB08SMFSL5M%2C1524761176%2C1438476280%2C1724218093%2C0143128973&srpt=ABIS_BOOK

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JRF9FC5/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i1
#15198319
late wrote:The genius of a Carbon Tax is that it lets the genius of capitalism do a lot of the hard work.

And the Salem witch-burnings let the genius of stranded, ignorant peasantry do a lot of the hard work.

The ethnic-cleansing North American First Nations... let the genius of industrial revolutionary misery and racism do a lot of the hard work.

POINT: You need a really solid argument to claim you can improve urban form with the same logic that destroyed it. Capitalism moved urbanites to bungalows to sell cars. That's the kind of disfunctional urban form it can create when capitalism is unchecked by other strong community institutions.

Corporations have no empathy... by definition. So capitalism won't of-its-own-accord create great places to live and interact in a fulfilling way. They will just create profit opportunities for insiders.
By late
#15198336
QatzelOk wrote:
You need a really solid argument to claim you can improve urban form with the same logic that destroyed it.



You can find a lot of good cities in Europe, and to improve them hop the link I provided.
#15198353
late wrote:You can find a lot of good cities in Europe, and to improve them hop the link I provided.

You propose raw capitalism as a way to improve cities. But old European cities are products of eras where capitalism (or business) was competing with royalty, the church, nobility, and other social institutions - some of them very socialistic, like the church.

The USA, Australia and Canada have better examples of cities created with capitalism as king. King of the road, it turns out, and not of community or spontaneous social contact.

Fordlandia
(raw capitalism creates a city)
#15198411
QatzelOk wrote:
You propose raw capitalism as a way to improve cities. But old European cities are products of eras where capitalism (or business) was competing with royalty, the church, nobility, and other social institutions - some of them very socialistic, like the church.

The USA, Australia and Canada have better examples of cities created with capitalism as king. King of the road, it turns out, and not of community or spontaneous social contact.

Fordlandia
(raw capitalism creates a city)



And it all comes out as hamburger...

#15198482
The Jokinen plan for Amsterdam, reminds me of le Corbusier's Plans for Paris and Algiers.

Image
The Plan for Paris, was to destroy most of the city and replace it with identical modern towers, large highways, and a few monuments here and there. "Kill the city" was his plan.

Image
For Algiers, his plan was - once again - to destroy most of the historic center. But this time, he will replace it with a band of highrises for Europeans to live in, while the "Arabs" would live under the highways.


Corbusier was a facist sympathizer, but he was also the inventor of the modern high-rise city. Many early Moderns were inspired by Futurists, who inspired fascism as well.

The links between fascism and many features of modern life... are strong.
By late
#15198556
QatzelOk wrote:
The Jokinen plan for Amsterdam, reminds me of le Corbusier's Plans for Paris and Algiers.



Ever been to Amsterdam? I liked it, but they had no idea how to make an American style hamburger, everything about it was wrong. OTOH, there were other things to do...

#15198828
late wrote:Ever been to Amsterdam?

Yes, for a week. But I stayed in the city center the entire time.

I liked the density, the linear parks, and the medium-scale of the buildings (as well as their simple style). But like many European capitals that weren't bombed to rubble in 20th century wars, it has very little uncontrolled space in which to find raw nature.

When I lived in Paris for studies, this was a negative feature there as well. It isn't just bad for practical reasons, it's bad because it makes you feel cooped up and constantly surveilled.

Dense cities need closeby uncontrolled natural spaces. The Spanish cities I've visited seem to keep large areas of uncontrolled nature near almost every urban hood. Cuban cities have these because of lack of budget.

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