[late]

Yes, but in other countries, the government makes sure that everyone is housed.

Might I refer you to the title of this thread?

[B0ycey]

How can anyone build a city without paths (sidewalks)? That isn't even funny. That is just basic common sense. Its a fucking path. It hardly wears so you can't even blame cost. So I suspect this comes down to lobbying again. I don't know how America plans to get off oil when they are so dependent on it. Totally backwards. If I was American that would drive me mad. Kudos to the video maker.

[QatzelOk]

How can anyone build a city without paths (sidewalks)?

Imagine that you're a city planner, and Ford Motor Company offers you a few of their traffic advisors, and lots of money for research.

Then, the military tells you that the Russians could "bomb your townhouse and neighborhood" so you better move to sprawl.

Sprawl means no sidewalks, and sometimes, it means no sewer or water connection.

It also often means no socializing opportunities to humans under 16, or for those who can't afford a car.

People who couldn't afford cars were portrayed as "social parasites and losers" by car-funded media for fifty years.

Letting car-and-oil-and-banks (financing) take over our societies has meant a lot of decadence and wasted lives.

[B0ycey]

Imagine that you're a city planner, and Ford Motor Company offers you a few of their traffic advisors, and lots of money for research.

I certainly agree with the sentiment of your post, but I would be surprised if Ford was indeed paying city planners to not build sidewalks so more people drove cars despite the clear advantage to them. What is more likely to have happened is cost cutting and backhanders from the construction companies to the city. Sidewalks are an additional cost with no financial benefit when building new retail parks or housing projects and takes lanes away from busy roads causing congestion etc. Basically walkers don't contribute to the profit margin so their concerns aren't met and those who grant planning permission clearly are getting bought off given sidewalks are needed for any functional society but not for the real estate owners.

[QatzelOk]

...I would be surprised if Ford was indeed paying city planners to not build sidewalks so more people drove cars despite the clear advantage to them. What is more likely to have happened is cost cutting and backhanders from the construction companies to the city....

You are giving too much credit to a multinational corporation. They have no empathy, remember. And they use mafia to get what they want.

GM destroys streetcars all over USA

List of convictions for corporate crimes, from 90s to present

The idea that sidewalks "just disappeared" without any prodding from car and oil interests ("YOU MUST BUILD SPRAWL if you want your campaign contribution, Mr. Government man who will soon be working as a lobbyist")

[B0ycey]

You are giving too much credit to a multinational corporation. They have no empathy, remember. And they use mafia to get what they want.

I was only referencing Ford (and a less extent GM), in regard to "paying (or lobbying)" city planners to build no sidewalks. I don't think they have done that given the huge scandal that would be. However I do think that given the clear disadvantage to citizens as well as ruining the functionality of a city by not building sidewalks, that someone somewhere has had a bung. But that would have come from the construction company as sidewalks aren't profitable and are an additional cost to them.

[QatzelOk]

I was only referencing Ford (and a less extent GM), in regard to "paying (or lobbying)" city planners to build no sidewalks.

That's not how it works.

Ford (and other car companies, oil companies, and highway construction companies) lobbied (and bribed) officials to build ONLY SPRAWL after WW2 (in North America and some other places). In these sprawled out places, it costs a lot more money to provide services - so there are fewer services.

Sidewalks are one of those "services" that disappeared in this process. Childhood street playing was another life-quality-enriching-thing that died of Car-Lobbying.

[B0ycey]

That's not how it works.

Ford (and other car companies, oil companies, and highway construction companies) lobbied (and bribed) officials to build ONLY SPRAWL after WW2 (in North America and some other places). In these sprawled out places, it costs a lot more money to provide services - so there are fewer services.

Sidewalks are one of those "services" that disappeared in this process. Childhood street playing was another life-quality-enriching-thing that died of Car-Lobbying.

I am going to ask for some source material on this then. I am not dusputing your claim, I just want to read up on it. Clearly lobbying has some interference in politics, but if it has actually shaped the cityscape of every city in America, then America has a greater problem than I originally thought. It would make sense that construction would "disappear services" due to profits and costs to them personally, but your claim is greater than that. You are saying it is the automotive industry that are doing this to sell more cars. That in the UK would be a MASSIVE scandal.

[late]

I am going to ask for some source material on this then. I am not dusputing your claim, I just want to read up on it. Clearly lobbying has some interference in politics, but if it has actually shaped the cityscape of every city in America, then America has a greater problem than I originally thought. It would make sense that construction would "disappear services" due to profits and costs to them personally, but your claim is greater than that. You are saying it is the automotive industry that are doing this to sell more cars. That in the UK would be a MASSIVE scandal.

[B0ycey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxykI30fS54

Late, I am not asking for the OP again. I am asking for information on a specific claim. That is, US cities have no sidewalks because Ford have lobbied them away so they can sell more cars. That is a big claim. I can appreciate that developers wouldn't build them if they can get approval without them so someone somewhere is getting a bung. But I would be surprised if Ford are behind the payments.

[late]

Late, I am not asking for the OP again. I am asking for information on a specific claim. That is, US cities have no sidewalks because Ford have lobbied them away so they can sell more cars. That is a big claim. I can appreciate that developers wouldn't build them if they can get approval without them so someone somewhere is getting a bung. But I would be surprised if Ford are behind the payments.

The feeling, in the 1950s, was that suburbs would make a nuclear war more survivable by spreading the population over a greater area. This helped the Highway Lobby, of which car makers were a part. We also had a program to help former soldiers buy small homes. It all came together in an orgy of building, sex, and good intentions..

Walkable City will help with understanding how to make things better.


https://www.amazon.com/Walkable-City-Downtown-Save-America/dp/0865477728/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2HPKN103H5VBQ&keywords=walkable+city&qid=1636227080&qsid=131-4556309-4521855&sprefix=walkable+%2Caps%2C192&sr=8-1&sres=0865477728%2C1610918983%2CB00D5Z1KHY%2CB079Y5K5VR%2CB08XQVTL5F%2CB005MM7JKA%2CB08KB69KDZ%2C1438476280%2C0071376755%2C0374534888%2CB07GQ1FQFX%2CB08SMFSL5M%2C1524761176%2C1119564816%2C1724218093%2C1501177931&srpt=ABIS_BOOK

[B0ycey]

The feeling, in the 1950s, was that suburbs would make a nuclear war more survivable by spreading the population over a greater area. This helped the Highway Lobby, of which car makers were a part. We also had a program to help former soldiers buy small homes. It all came together in an orgy of building, sex, and good intentions..

Building suburbs is not the same as not providing sidewalks. There is nothing unique in suburbs, in the UK for example most infrastructure and development is done on the outskirts of major towns/cities. Netherlands the same thing, which is the country the OP mentioned for good city design. So please don't conflate the two. The claim is Ford have lobbied for a lack of sidewalks so they can sell more cars. I haven't read anything to back that up. And you are doing a piss poor job at backing that claim up. Is this you jumping into a post without having no clue on the discussion again? Seems like it to me.

[late]

Building suburbs is not the same as not providing sidewalks. There is nothing unique in suburbs, in the UK for example most infrastructure and development is done on the outskirts of major towns/cities. Netherlands the same thing, which is the country the OP mentioned for good city design. So please don't conflate the two. The claim is Ford have lobbied for a lack of sidewalks so they can sell more cars. I haven't read anything to back that up. And you are doing a piss poor job at backing that claim up. Is this you jumping into a post without having no clue on the discussion again? Seems like it to me.

Ford would not have lobbied for or against sidewalks.

If you look at the principle, that sprawl eats budgets, Q had a point. If you look at that comment as a rhetorical flourish, it almost makes sense.

[QatzelOk]

I am going to ask for some source material on this then. I am not dusputing your claim, I just want to read up on it. Clearly lobbying has some interference in politics, but if it has actually shaped the cityscape of every city in America, then America has a greater problem than I originally thought

List of convicted crimes of Corporations since 1990

If you go to the site above, you can find most major car corporations - including Ford - have been fined billions of dollars in the last 30 years for committing crimes. This means that these corporations use crime as a profit-generating tactic.

If you google "how car companies ruined USA cities," you will find all the research you need to incriminate the car industry.

If you are trying to start a class-action suit against Ford Motor Company (or a Libel suit against me), I don't think I can provide enough classified documents from Ford to really make a case against them in a court of law. But if you want to see how corporations generally destroyed our towns, the google research will get you started.

[B0ycey]

If you are trying to start a class-action suit against Ford Motor Company (or a Libel suit against me), I don't think I can provide enough classified documents from Ford to really make a case against them in a court of law. But if you want to see how corporations generally destroyed our towns, the google research will get you started.

Christ Qatz. I am not looking at libel given I am not American. I just happen to have an interested in the US legal structure given it stinks for ordinary people and would like to know more about this issue in particular. From the information you have provided, there is a lot of conjecture, assumed links from other bad practices by the automotive sector rather than articles saying as such. I would suggest this is merely a theory given that. But someone somewhere is allowing this bad practice and the blame may well be the automotive sector, although I would say it is more likely down to costs in construction.

[Rancid]

I'm not aware of them lobbying directly to stop sidewalks. However, I do know that they have lobbied to make jaywalking illegal. The point wasn't to make jaywalking illegal per se, but to create the narrative that auto accidents involving pedestrians are the fault of the pedestrian and not the motorist. It was a blame shifting tactic. The responsibility of safety was pushed to the pedestrian.

We still live with the affect of this today. MOtoroists mostly don't give a shit about people on the street (especially in the suburbs). I was shocked when in Europe people were stopping to let me cross the street. That's rare in the US. In the US the attitude is, you wait for an opening, and frogger your ass across that street. This is at a cross walk.

[Potemkin]

I'm not aware of them lobbying directly to stop sidewalks. However, I do know that they have lobbied to make jaywalking illegal. The point wasn't to make jaywalking illegal per se, but to create the narrative that auto accidents involving pedestrians are the fault of the pedestrian and not the motorist. It was a blame shifting tactic. The responsibility of safety was pushed to the pedestrian.

We still live with the affect of this today. MOtoroists mostly don't give a shit about people on the street (especially in the suburbs). I was shocked when in Europe people were stopping to let me cross the street. That's rare in the US. In the US the attitude is, you wait for an opening, and frogger your ass across that street. This is at a cross walk.

"America is the only nation in history to go straight from barbarism to decadence without passing through the stage in between." - Oscar Wilde.

[Rancid]

"America is the only nation in history to go straight from barbarism to decadence without passing through the stage in between." - Oscar Wilde.

USA! USA! USA!

[Robert Urbanek]

The best city design means little if the mentally ill and drug addicts are allowed to set up camp on the streets.

[B0ycey]

We still live with the affect of this today. MOtoroists mostly don't give a shit about people on the street (especially in the suburbs). I was shocked when in Europe people were stopping to let me cross the street. That's rare in the US. In the US the attitude is, you wait for an opening, and frogger your ass across that street. This is at a cross walk.

In the UK at least, the responsibility is solely down to the driver so traffic laws are very strict here and adherence is key. Although if you were in France, they have the same attitude as Americans on this regard it seems. No driver waits at pedestrian crossings in France. And I mean nobody. It maybe, there is a link in regards to jaywalking and automotive lobbying (or city design). But despite the French not giving way to anyone trying to cross a road, they at the very least provide a paths and have great public transport. If you cannot provide the means to walk, then I can see why America at least have no motivation to move off oil. You cannot function without it.