American civil war, first as tragedy then as farce? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15193771
It is said that history repeats itself; first as tragedy, then as farce. In my opinion there are at least two significant historical events the current situation is a form of really bad Hollywood representation of:

1. The last civil war

The civil war was ultimately a clash between two incompatible economic systems. The northern states representing an industrialism like that of UK, with ordinary people being what we ideologically perceive as traditional working class. The southern states on the other representing an economy where capital (in the form of cotton and so on) was exported and production was outsourced to other countries, where ordinary (white people) were left, dirt poor, to fend for themselves without any actual role in the economy. You could arguably call this nationalism against globalism.

To some degree this tendency exists today, especially in rhetoric. Trump talks about making America great again, bringing home production, ending trade deals, and so on. Meanwhile the ideology, both republican and democratic, this is a reaction to is a form of hyperglobalism where capital (dollar) are exported and production being increasingly outsourced to other country, leaving more and more people without a clear role in the economy.

I think there is an argument to make that there is a farce-like ideological conflict, equally incompatible as that of the northern states (MAGA) against the southern (liberal democracy), at least in a symbolic and discursive sense.

2. The rise of Julius Caesar

Julius Caesar lacked a significant influence in Rome, understood in the traditional way. Yet he was feared and perceived as powerful because of his leadership, his successful campaigns and his admiration among ordinary people in Rome. When he crossed the Rubicon River with his army, there were since long a law for generals against doing this (entering with his army). It is at this point the die was casted and he became the enemy of the Senate, who essentially went into war with Caesar with a far larger army. But because of Caesars ability to make daring decisions and going against conventional means he was still victorious and emerged as an undisputed leader of Rome.

It is in my opinion not entirely unlike Trumps success. With unconventional means and, initially, any traditional influence in American politics he have made himself a candidate for the pleb with successful campaigns far away from Washington.
#15193787
boomerintown wrote:Julius Caesar lacked a significant influence in Rome, understood in the traditional way. Yet he was feared and perceived as powerful because of his leadership, his successful campaigns and his admiration among ordinary people in Rome. When he crossed the Rubicon River with his army, there were since long a law for generals against doing this (entering with his army).

What about Pompey?
#15193799
Rich wrote:What about Pompey?


If I am not wrong Pompey lead the (larger) army sent out against Caesar, that was ultimatly outmanuevered?

But I am really no expert on Roman history, so take this metaphor with a large grain of salt. :)

Point 1 is more interesting in my opinion to understand the conflict from a relevant (and pretty recent) historical perspectiv. But obviously a lot of things are different. For instance, the conflict line is largely this farce-like symbolic or "cultural" clash between two extremly polarized sides, even though it tends to be class interests in the ground between extremly globalized urban coasts which benefits (at least in the short run) from cheap asian production and flyover states with little connection outside who is in decline because production have moved abroad.
#15193809
@boomerintown No I think you missed my point. People have spent the last 2000 years whining about Caesar crossing the Rubicon into Italy under arms. But what about Pompey? He was in Italy under arms and he wasn't Consul in that year. The Senate was even meeting outside the Pomoerium, so as Pompey could attend.
#15193814
Rich wrote:@boomerintown No I think you missed my point. People have spent the last 2000 years whining about Caesar crossing the Rubicon into Italy under arms. But what about Pompey? He was in Italy under arms and he wasn't Consul in that year. The Senate was even meeting outside the Pomoerium, so as Pompey could attend.


Agreed, initially I actually wrote "the fall of the Roman Republic", but changed it to "the rise of Caesar" because to some degree it had already fallen.

But still, its another topic. ^^
#15193815
Rich wrote:@boomerintown No I think you missed my point. People have spent the last 2000 years whining about Caesar crossing the Rubicon into Italy under arms. But what about Pompey? He was in Italy under arms and he wasn't Consul in that year. The Senate was even meeting outside the Pomoerium, so as Pompey could attend.

Not to mention Sulla's antics a few years earlier. As Pompey once said, "If Sulla could do it, why can't I?"
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