Ending of Pandemic Era Benefits Didn't Lead To New Hiring - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15193967
Personally, I think a failure to address the pandemic and the fact that the pandemic has exposed unaddressed problems like child care for example is the reason why despite cutting unemployment benefits businesses still can't find workers. Moreover, it doesn't help that business insist on underpaying employees and hiring them at low wages. See, business wanted to get rid of pandemic benefits so they could hire at low wages and continue to underpay American workers and treat them like shit and let them work in toxic and unsafe work environments. Most people are not lazy.

They want to work. But they need childcare, they need to know the pandemic has been properly addressed and everybody has been vaccinated and they need to be paid more than what they have been paid and be treated well and not work in toxic work environments and unsafe work environments. American business do not care about taking care of their people (their workers) nor do they care about exercising real leadership. They claim they do but they are full shit too. Actions speak louder than words.

Republicans and businesses need to stop weaponizing this notion of "laziness" as an explanation of why workers won't accept these job openings. People's time and families are valuable. I am sure business owners and republicans feel the same way about their time and families so it's no different for anybody else. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Tami Luhby of CNN wrote:Out-of-work Americans did not rush back into the job market after beefed-up unemployment benefits ended nationwide in September.

The labor force shrank last month for the first time since May, signaling that more people were opting to sit on the sidelines and not actively look for work, according to the federal jobs report released Friday.

"If unemployment benefits were the driving force behind labor market dynamics, then you would not have seen that effect," said Gordon Gray, director of fiscal policy at the American Action Forum, a right-leaning think tank.

The jobs report, which disappointed on several fronts, came at a time when the nation was contending with both elevated levels of coronavirus cases and a return to school for millions of children.

Despite a record number of openings, employers added an anemic 194,000 jobs -- far fewer than expected for the second month in a row.

Have you lost your pandemic unemployment benefits? Tell us about it.

While experts caution against drawing conclusions from one or two months of data, the September jobs report provides yet more evidence that pandemic unemployment benefits did not greatly contribute to the country's labor shortage.

Other factors -- including child care issues, virus fears and workers' reevaluation of their life goals -- are playing a major role in prompting people to remain at home, economists said.

The latest report undercuts the argument made by many Republicans and business owners that the nation's economic recovery was being slowed by a federal safety net they deemed too generous.

Governors in 26 states -- all but one Republican -- opted to terminate at least one of the three pandemic unemployment programs in June or July, saying it would help solve staffing shortfalls. (Courts in two states later required officials to continue the benefits through early September.)

However, after they did so, employment did not grow substantially faster in those states, previous studies and government data have found.


https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/10/poli ... index.html
#15193972
People with no income will eventually need to work. 1 month isn't enough time, people likely have savings they're using.

If kids are back in school childcare won't be any bigger an issue than pre-pandemic.

Wages are determined by the market (besides minimum wages), so supply and demand determines wages largely.
#15193976
@Unthinking Majority

Wages are not determined by any sort of market, they are determined by a few powerful employers who have politicians bought off in Washington. If employers don't pay enough to where people can afford the cost of living and have at least some time for themselves, then their is no incentive for them to work. People don't need to do anything. Doing nothing is always an option. Employers wanted those benefits to end because they think it will force workers to accept low slave wages that do not meet the cost of living and to accept toxic work environments that are poor for the mental health of anybody.

You have to treat people right and pay them enough to where they can live and to where they can have some time for themselves. What good is it to work 3 or 4 low wage jobs as a wage slave when you don't have any time to enjoy life or spend the money you make and can barely afford to survive? You might as well not be working. At least you can enjoy some for yourself and a little bit of what life has to offer rather than being a wage slave who doesn't even have time to spend any of the money they make nor anytime for themselves or to enjoy life. Some of those jobs will literally work you to death. What good is that?

People respond to real incentives not to being slaves. That means paying them enough to keep up with the cost of living and have a little bit and to have a little bit of time for themselves and family. But business do not want to do that. Businesses want slaves and not employees. Their really is not that much real incentive to work when you are a slave.

Edit:

Heck, even gig workers are organizing now for better pay. That has been reported on the news here recently. Here is a website dedicated to helping Gig workers organize: https://gigworkersrising.org/ . Even the Gig workers are fighting the man and the power. 8)
#15193981
A lot of Boomers decided to not go back to work. The ones born in the 1950s are all in their 60s or 70s now.

When the dust settles, you'll find the Boomers had a lot to do with it. Before the pandemic I was surprised how many put off retiring.

Working conditions suck compared to most of Europe, a lot of younger people are making decisions like being stay at home moms, or pursing different careers, something they think they would like better.

As a rule of thumb, if a Right winger thinks something, assume it's wrong, go look for why, don't be surprised that it doesn't take long to find out why..
#15193986
tomskunk wrote:@Unthinking Majority

Wages are not determined by any sort of market, they are determined by a few powerful employers who have politicians bought off in Washington. If employers don't pay enough to where people can afford the cost of living and have at least some time for themselves, then their is no incentive for them to work. People don't need to do anything. Doing nothing is always an option. Employers wanted those benefits to end because they think it will force workers to accept low slave wages that do not meet the cost of living and to accept toxic work environments that are poor for the mental health of anybody.


Slaves don't get wages. A slave wage is zero dollars.

Doctors and lawyers make more than cashiers and food servers because the market says so. The supply of doctors/lawyers is very low, the supply of people who can be cashiers or food servers is extremely high.

You have to treat people right and pay them enough to where they can live and to where they can have some time for themselves. What good is it to work 3 or 4 low wage jobs as a wage slave when you don't have any time to enjoy life or spend the money you make and can barely afford to survive? You might as well not be working. At least you can enjoy some for yourself and a little bit of what life has to offer rather than being a wage slave who doesn't even have time to spend any of the money they make nor anytime for themselves or to enjoy life. Some of those jobs will literally work you to death. What good is that?


Well if people who were on benefits not long ago are now making zero dollars and keep making zero dollars, I assume most will go back to work eventually, especially when their savings runs out.

People respond to real incentives not to being slaves. That means paying them enough to keep up with the cost of living and have a little bit and to have a little bit of time for themselves and family. But business do not want to do that. Businesses want slaves and not employees. Their really is not that much real incentive to work when you are a slave.


Ok well if in a couple of months nobody goes back to work employers may have to raise wages to entice them especially with Xmas coming soon. If supply of workers is low for a certain job the market the wages will go up (supply and demand). That will mean inflation as the cost will often be passed on to the consumer.

Edit:

Heck, even gig workers are organizing now for better pay. That has been reported on the news here recently. Here is a website dedicated to helping Gig workers organize: https://gigworkersrising.org/ . Even the Gig workers are fighting the man and the power. 8)


Workers should be free to organize any way they wish.
#15193990
@Unthinking Majority

You sound like a dogmatic ideologue rather than somebody down with the real world. Throwing money at a problem isn't going to solve anything nor is it going to motivate people to work. You have to show people that you respect them, that you appreciate them and pay them a reasonable amount where they can live decently. Throwing money at somebody and still treating them like shit is not going to motivate them to work. It's about POWER for these business. It's the "fuck you I got mine" mentality. Well fuck you too you won't be getting "yours" from me.

Wage slavery is very real today. It's when people are paid very little for the work they do and they work 3 or 4 jobs and have no time for themselves or family. It's slavery. They wouldn't have the time spend the money they earn if they are even lucky enough to have money left over after paying the bills.

Moreover, you have to have a license to practice law, medicine or to be a nurse. "The market" has nothing to do with how much these professions get paid. If they didn't use government to require licenses for these professions, they would be getting paid FAR less. All of these professions use the government to raise their wages and they get paid well and are able to easily afford the cost of living unlike everybody else who doesn't have the benefit of government raising minimum wage. Lawyers especially have always depended on government to ensure they are always paid well.

Lastly, data has shown that states with high vaccination rates have an easier time finding workers to hire. That's because workers in those states feel safe enough to go to work. Government is working better in those states. That's not the case with states that have low vaccination rates. People don't want to catch Coronavirus and die from it or bringing it back to their kids or elderly in their homes.
#15194002
tomskunk wrote:
Wages are not determined by any sort of market, they are determined by a few powerful employers who have politicians bought off in Washington. If employers don't pay enough to where people can afford the cost of living and have at least some time for themselves, then their is no incentive for them to work. People don't need to do anything. Doing nothing is always an option. Employers wanted those benefits to end because they think it will force workers to accept low slave wages that do not meet the cost of living and to accept toxic work environments that are poor for the mental health of anybody.


Well on the national level, wages are determined by the industry. Glassdoor dot com lists industry averages which is how I learned that I am paid below the industry average based on years worked. But I stay for the insurance benefits and to show employers I can stay at a job for more than 2 years. Locally, businesses can compete to try to attract candidates. I know one business near me has put up a sign with the starting pay rate and it is more than what I earn. It might have contributed to my recent raise though so my thanks to that business for putting up that sign on their front lawn.

Some of us remain at jobs we dislike because we do not want to face the stress of adapting to a new place. I like the routine I have now. I know how to get along with co-workers. But years from now, I will resume my job search. And other reason is that there are no better alternatives. I also remain at my job because the location is convenient. In the future, I would accept a longer commute if the job offers better pay and the chance to expand my experience.

We are finding out that this pandemic has been a time for reflection for some. People have been soul searching and deciding that they want to change their career. Some schools are seeing that more people are studying health policy for example. They want to help shape the public health industry which I think is a worthy goal.

You have to treat people right and pay them enough to where they can live and to where they can have some time for themselves. What good is it to work 3 or 4 low wage jobs as a wage slave when you don't have any time to enjoy life or spend the money you make and can barely afford to survive? You might as well not be working. At least you can enjoy some for yourself and a little bit of what life has to offer rather than being a wage slave who doesn't even have time to spend any of the money they make nor anytime for themselves or to enjoy life. Some of those jobs will literally work you to death. What good is that?


Who said life is fair? Do employers have to treat their employees respectfully and with consideration? No, they do not. It was inconsiderate of one of my past employers to ship my job overseas but they did it anyway. They did not think about the hundreds of Americans who were affected by the move, they only thought about their bottom line. Business is harsh and often the managers are heartless. If you want something heartwarming, then you best read a sappy novel instead.

I have neighbors who work day and night just to afford house payments or pay for their luxury expenses. The lady of the house likes to throw parties and buy new outfits. But as a result, she has to work during the night and on weekends. So sometimes, it is better to live humbly than to try to seek lots of pleasure and splurge on the good things.

People respond to real incentives not to being slaves. That means paying them enough to keep up with the cost of living and have a little bit and to have a little bit of time for themselves and family. But business do not want to do that. Businesses want slaves and not employees.


Some people will keep a crappy job because they have no better options. My mother once had a co-worker whose husband stayed at a job, even after he got a pay cut. He of course was job hunting but stayed at the job while he searched for months and months. I do not know if he ever found something better but I hope he did. Whoever suggested the pay cut is a fucking bastard who should be caned for days.
Their really is not that much real incentive to work when you are a slave.


The incentive I can think of is that if a person runs out of money and can't pay rent or buy groceries...then a person needs to work to earn that pay check. Money is not an unlimited amount. The amount in the bank account will get low over time as it is being withdrawn and none or very little new funds are deposited.

And a few people will do anything to earn cash. Some might call it shameless. But by this point, the said people do not care. They just know that they need money desperately.
#15194033
@MistyTiger

MistyTiger wrote:Who said life is fair? Do employers have to treat their employees respectfully and with consideration? No, they do not. It was inconsiderate of one of my past employers to ship my job overseas but they did it anyway. They did not think about the hundreds of Americans who were affected by the move, they only thought about their bottom line. Business is harsh and often the managers are heartless. If you want something heartwarming, then you best read a sappy novel instead.

I have neighbors who work day and night just to afford house payments or pay for their luxury expenses. The lady of the house likes to throw parties and buy new outfits. But as a result, she has to work during the night and on weekends. So sometimes, it is better to live humbly than to try to seek lots of pleasure and splurge on the good things.


Life might not be fair but the facts are the facts. And the fact is, you are not going to motivate people by treating them like shit. It doesn't matter if life is fair or not. Even if life isn't fair, you still aren't going to motivate anybody by treating them like shit. That's not going to change whether life is unfair or not. That is a fact, pure and simple. Whether life is fair or is irrelevant in this regard. Moreover, nobody has to accept bad treatment, not even from employers or their boss.

If you accept bad treatment then expect that bad treatment to continue and expect to always be miserable and unhappy. If you ever want to be happy in life then you better start standing up for yourself both in and outside of the work place and stop taking bad treatment, even if that bad treatment comes from your boss.

You don't have to take bad treatment from anybody whether life is fair or not. You need to have some self respect. It doesn't matter if anybody accepts you, what matters is that you accept yourself and have some self respect. You don't have to be a slave to anybody and allowing yourself to be a slave will make you somebody with very low self esteem. So fight the fucking power and piss on them.

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#15194063
Rancid wrote:I measure my personal self respect and value based on how much money I make.


So do I. If I cannot afford to pay for fuel or pay for my personal expenses, then I cannot respect myself. I would feel like a loser.

@tomskunk I get what you're saying. But the reality for me is that if I am unemployed and holding onto morality, I could be miserable as well. When I was unemployed after I first graduated from university in my mid 20s, I was totally depressed and even contemplated suicide. I found it very intolerable to live with myself knowing that I had no skills and I even had no boss to complain about. I did not even try to keep in touch with friends. I really had no respect for myself. I was at such a low point in my life. Not everyone can be happy without a job.
#15194068
@MistyTiger @Rancid

That's the difference between me and you two. I am not going to allow myself to be treated like a slave or to be disrespected. I'll fight over that now, I don't care who you are. I would rather be poor the rest of my life and still have self-respect and self-esteem. I don't measure my self-respect or esteem on the size of my bank account nor the value of another human being based on the size of their bank account or what house or car they drive. It's weak and fake and shallow to do so. I know some people do, but that's not me or who I am. I'm nobody's slave and you better believe I'll fight the man all the way and won't ever surrender.

I guarantee you. That's a guarantee. There are ways to be a winner in life without being a sycophant. At the end of the day, I'll be able to look at myself in the mirror and still be proud of who I am whether I got money or not.I don't measure my self-worth based on the clothes I wear or the money I have in a bank account or how I look to other people. I don't need other people's approval or acceptance to feel good about myself.

You don't have to be rich or have money to fight for yourself nor do you have to accept being a slave to feel good about yourself or to win at life. I don't measure success by how much money you got or what kind of car you drive or whose ass you kiss. 8) Nobody will respect anybody who is a doormat. Not even your own boss will ever respect you if you don't ever stand up for yourself. I am not going to live in fear all the time or work in a shitty toxic work environment. That's a no deal with me and I will not accept that and will rebel if necessary. And I have rebeled in the past and will do it again if it is necessary.
#15194069
tomskunk wrote:@MistyTiger @Rancid

That's the difference between me and you two. I am not going to allow myself to be treated like a slave or to be disrespected. I'll fight over that now, I don't care who you are. I would rather be poor the rest of my life and still have self-respect and self-esteem. I don't measure my self-respect or esteem on the size of my bank account nor the value of another human being based on the size of their bank account or what house or car they drive. It's weak and fake and shallow to do so. I know some people do, but that's not me or who I am. I'm nobody's slave and you better believe I'll fight the man all the way and won't ever surrender.

I guarantee you. That's a guarantee. There are ways to be a winner in life without being a sycophant. At the end of the day, I'll be able to look at myself in the mirror and still be proud of who I am whether I got money or not.I don't measure my self-worth based on the clothes I wear or the money I have in a bank account or how I look to other people. I don't need other people's approval or acceptance to feel good about myself.

You don't have to be rich or have money to fight for yourself nor do you have to accept being a slave to feel good about yourself or to win at life. I don't measure success by how much money you got or what kind of car you drive or whose ass you kiss. 8) Nobody will respect anybody who is a doormat. Not even your own boss will ever respect you if you don't ever stand up for yourself. I am not going to live in fear all the time or work in a shitty toxic work environment. That's a no deal with me and I will not accept that and will rebel if necessary. And I have rebeled in the past and will do it again if it is necessary.


Well, while I am not sure how much they meant vs said as a joke, I don't totally disagree with what @Rancid has said. Many people see money as some sort of purely henodistic spawn of the devil. In reality, money is far more nuanced. Money is a certificate that your services/labor/creations are being appreciated by someone else. In turn, you can use this certificate to acquire other creations and/or enlist labor from other members of society that you value as such. In effect, it is not much different than respect. Have you ever heard the phrase "respect is earned"?
#15194070
MistyTiger wrote:So do I. If I cannot afford to pay for fuel or pay for my personal expenses, then I cannot respect myself. I would feel like a loser.


:eek:

tomskunk wrote:That's the difference between me and you two. I am not going to allow myself to be treated like a slave or to be disrespected.


I was mostly joking.

XogGyux wrote:
Well, while I am not sure how much they meant vs said as a joke, I don't totally disagree with what @Rancid has said. Many people see money as some sort of purely henodistic spawn of the devil. In reality, money is far more nuanced. Money is a certificate that your services/labor/creations are being appreciated by someone else. In turn, you can use this certificate to acquire other creations and/or enlist labor from other members of society that you value as such. In effect, it is not much different than respect. Have you ever heard the phrase "respect is earned"?


To some degree, sure. However, this system of using money as a measure of true value/worth has it's failures and flaws. For example, it would be a mistake to assume teachers in America have little value, because they get paid so little.
#15194087
tomskunk wrote:@MistyTiger @Rancid

That's the difference between me and you two. I am not going to allow myself to be treated like a slave or to be disrespected. I'll fight over that now, I don't care who you are. I would rather be poor the rest of my life and still have self-respect and self-esteem. I don't measure my self-respect or esteem on the size of my bank account nor the value of another human being based on the size of their bank account or what house or car they drive. It's weak and fake and shallow to do so. I know some people do, but that's not me or who I am. I'm nobody's slave and you better believe I'll fight the man all the way and won't ever surrender.

I guarantee you. That's a guarantee. There are ways to be a winner in life without being a sycophant. At the end of the day, I'll be able to look at myself in the mirror and still be proud of who I am whether I got money or not.I don't measure my self-worth based on the clothes I wear or the money I have in a bank account or how I look to other people. I don't need other people's approval or acceptance to feel good about myself.

You don't have to be rich or have money to fight for yourself nor do you have to accept being a slave to feel good about yourself or to win at life. I don't measure success by how much money you got or what kind of car you drive or whose ass you kiss. 8) Nobody will respect anybody who is a doormat. Not even your own boss will ever respect you if you don't ever stand up for yourself. I am not going to live in fear all the time or work in a shitty toxic work environment. That's a no deal with me and I will not accept that and will rebel if necessary. And I have rebeled in the past and will do it again if it is necessary.


Question, do you have children and a wife? It is one thing to fight for your own ideals. But what if by fighting, you cause suffering for your wife and children? As a young man, my father did rebel in the office. It cost him his job and the family suffered with him. It is easy to say you will fight for your beliefs. But what about when you are faced with hungry mouths and an unhappy wife? My mother stood by my father all these years without complaining, she supported him...but not all wives are like her.

I studied philosophy in my 20s. I admire Aristotle and Socrates. However I cannot go around philosophizing about the good and refuse to work. No workplace is perfectly good and without drama. Some places are worse than others. Pick your poison, as they say.

I work my ass off today so that in the future, I can help others. My financial planner said he could help me set up trusts to donate to causes or charities. I want to help others. To help others, I first need to help myself. I want to support myself one day without the help of my parents or a bf or husband. I owe that to myself. I want to be self reliant.
#15194089
tomskunk wrote:@MistyTiger @Rancid

That's the difference between me and you two. I am not going to allow myself to be treated like a slave or to be disrespected. I'll fight over that now, I don't care who you are. I would rather be poor the rest of my life and still have self-respect and self-esteem. I don't measure my self-respect or esteem on the size of my bank account nor the value of another human being based on the size of their bank account or what house or car they drive. It's weak and fake and shallow to do so. I know some people do, but that's not me or who I am. I'm nobody's slave and you better believe I'll fight the man all the way and won't ever surrender.

I guarantee you. That's a guarantee. There are ways to be a winner in life without being a sycophant. At the end of the day, I'll be able to look at myself in the mirror and still be proud of who I am whether I got money or not.I don't measure my self-worth based on the clothes I wear or the money I have in a bank account or how I look to other people. I don't need other people's approval or acceptance to feel good about myself.


If a person doesn't like how they're being treated at work, or doesn't like the terms of the contract they signed (your wage, benefits etc) people should find another job. But sitting at home unemployed refusing all work and shaking your fist at "the man" sounds pretty dumb.

COVID benefits in the US have only been gone for about a month, too early to make any judgements yet.
#15194316
@Unthinking Majority @MistyTiger

Here is the deal. If you want me to work for you, you have to treat me with respect. If you can't treat me with respect and give me a safe work environment then fuck you. I won't work for anybody who can't do that. I don't expect a "perfect" work environment, but I expect reasonable accommodations and to be treated like a human being. If you can't do that as an employer then fuck you. It's something that is non-negotiable with me. If you want to hire a slave that you can own and throw away like a piece of trash and treat like shit all the time, then I am not your man. I can't negotiate on that. It's non-negotiable no matter what.

You have to treat me like a human being and with respect. If you can't do that, I won't work for you. Simple. I don't owe you or Misty or any employer my sanity or my health or my life. I don't know why you guys think you owe your employer your sanity, mental health, and life, but that's not me. Personally, I wouldn't have kids unless I know I am in a job or own a business where I am treated with respect and dignity as a human being and can afford to have a wife and kids.

Corporations don't own me and I will not bow. I am happy to work, but you have to treat me like I am a man and a human being otherwise fuck you. It's as simple as that and I will not negotiate or budge on that no matter what. I don't owe an employer my sanity or mental health or my life. It's not difficult for employers to treat others as human beings and pay them reasonably according to the cost of living. If you can't do that, you don't need to be in business. Simple.

Maybe you two are OK with being a slave. That's your business but me, I am not a slave. But you guys do whatever you want to do. I am a man and you have to treat me accordingly otherwise we can't deal. Simple and non-negotiable. That doesn't mean I expect a "perfect" work environment, but it does mean I expect a reasonable work environment fit for human beings to work in. It's not an unreasonable or unrealistic expectation. I assure you, it can be done. If an employer can't do that, then don't even bother looking at my resume. Don't give me an interview. I don't want to work for you. If you can do that but stop doing that, then I'll find another job and leave you without giving you a two week notice (because you don't deserve a two week notice if you can't even treat your employees with respect). I don't have time for that and my mental health and sanity is important to me. I can easily find another job. It doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is my self-respect and my mental sanity and if an employer can't understand that then I am not working for them. Simple. Non-negotiable.
#15194332
@MistyTiger @Unthinking Majority

I found this fitting for both Misty and Unthinking. OBEY your MASTERS in the corporate world and KNEEL BEFORE THEM.

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Just don't think for yourself, don't have any self-respect, just be a SLAVE and bow down before the one you serve. Just serve the interests of POWER rather than interests of freedom and humanity.

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