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By Scamp
#15194423
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... lture.html
"Now moccasins are racist! Minnetonka APOLOGIZES for making the traditional shoes for 75 YEARS because it is NOT a Native American-owned business
Minnetonka issued a statement Monday saying it had made money off the back of its 'appropriation' of Native American culture
CEO David Miller admitted his firm is not a Native-owned business, and promised to do more to support Indigenous communities in the future
The company has also hired Adrienne Benjamin - a member of the tribe Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe - as a reconciliation advisor
Minnetonka timed the apology to coincide with Indigenous Peoples' Day
The move is the latest to tackle brands' use of Native American culture with NFL team the Washington Redskins rebranding as the Washington Football Team"
#15194434
These cultural appropriation people are a nuance. Who can tell me that I cannot eat Chinese or Thai food. Who is going to prohibit me from decorating my bedroom on a japanse-inspired theme, etc. Perhaps we should close the native American casinos for culturally appropriating western vices. :lol:

These people should simply be ignored and not given all this attention that they are seeking.
#15194436
XogGyux wrote:
These cultural appropriation people are a nuance.



Some posts are a nuisance. 8)

But you have a point. And it's not unusual for this sort of thing to overshoot the intended goal. Eventually we'll get it right.
#15194439
Rancid wrote:Perhaps you are racist for even wearing them.


Not according to my wife and other Indigenous women.

In fact, buying mocs made by Indigenous people is considered a good way to support Indigenous communities and businesses. Native people lose millions of dollars each year in cultural appropriation.

The ones my wife got me are made and decorated in the specific way that her people make them. But with waterproof Vibram soles so I can wear them in the backyard.
#15194444
XogGyux wrote:These cultural appropriation people are a nuance. Who can tell me that I cannot eat Chinese or Thai food. Who is going to prohibit me from decorating my bedroom on a japanse-inspired theme, etc. Perhaps we should close the native American casinos for culturally appropriating western vices. :lol:

These people should simply be ignored and not given all this attention that they are seeking.


Agree. I think most of this sort of bullshit will stay on the margins.

Pants-of-dog wrote:
Not according to my wife and other Indigenous women.

In fact, buying mocs made by Indigenous people is considered a good way to support Indigenous communities and businesses. Native people lose millions of dollars each year in cultural appropriation.

The ones my wife got me are made and decorated in the specific way that her people make them. But with waterproof Vibram soles so I can wear them in the backyard.


I was just fucking with you. Do what you wish.

I appropriate Jewish culture by hording large sums of money.

HEEEEEEEEEEEEEYYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSTTTT!
#15194450
I guess I should refrain from imitating heavy European, Asian or other foreign accents lest I be seen as racist. I will have less to laugh about. :hmm:

No, I will not refrain. I like laughing at all sorts of accents. :D

If clothes are racist, then we are all racist for wearing blue jeans made in Asia and not appreciating the jeans.
#15194583
MistyTiger wrote:I

If clothes are racist, then we are all racist for wearing blue jeans made in Asia and not appreciating the jeans.



Jeans were invented in America, although they are so different from what we call jeans today, you could say we appropriated ourselves. :p
#15194586
Only ranchers and cowboys can wear jeans. Everyone else is guilty of appropriation.
#15194612
Rancid wrote:I was just fucking with you. Do what you wish.


I thought so, but it gave me a chance to talk about something that I think is poorly understood.

On that note, I am going to pontificate on the OP, so if cultural appropriation is not an interesting subject for you, please ignore the rest of the post.

There seems to be three separate issues here:

1. Moccasins as cultural appropriation.

2. Making money by representing one’s products as the products of another culture.

3. US law.

Dealing with US law first:

Interestingly, the US actually has a law against non-Indigenous people making money by dishonestly claiming they are selling Indigenous arts or crafts: the Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_ ... ct_of_1990). So the company in the OP may be running afoul of that, or are trying to evade being charged under that law.

Making money off misrepresentation of your stuff as belonging to culture x can be treated very seriously, like the use of the term ”champagne”, which is illegal in most of the world. This part is interesting because we tend to respect it when France does it, but not when people with less societal power do so.

Finally, wearing moccasins is not considered cultural appropriation because they are not restricted. They are just shoes, and everyone wears shoes. Much like jeans or pizza, everyone can have some. What is considered cultural appropriation is when we use restricted symbols such as a headdress or a Maori ta moko. This is because these things are restricted; you have to earn the right to wear one in the appropriate culture, and when we wear these things without earning them, we dishonour and cheapen the thing. We do this is western cultures too, by making it illegal to impersonate cops or claiming to have some sort f education or training that they do not.
#15194619
Pants-of-dog wrote:I thought so, but it gave me a chance to talk about something that I think is poorly understood.

On that note, I am going to pontificate on the OP, so if cultural appropriation is not an interesting subject for you, please ignore the rest of the post.

There seems to be three separate issues here:

1. Moccasins as cultural appropriation.

2. Making money by representing one’s products as the products of another culture.

3. US law.

Dealing with US law first:

Interestingly, the US actually has a law against non-Indigenous people making money by dishonestly claiming they are selling Indigenous arts or crafts: the Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_ ... ct_of_1990). So the company in the OP may be running afoul of that, or are trying to evade being charged under that law.

Making money off misrepresentation of your stuff as belonging to culture x can be treated very seriously, like the use of the term ”champagne”, which is illegal in most of the world. This part is interesting because we tend to respect it when France does it, but not when people with less societal power do so.

Finally, wearing moccasins is not considered cultural appropriation because they are not restricted. They are just shoes, and everyone wears shoes. Much like jeans or pizza, everyone can have some. What is considered cultural appropriation is when we use restricted symbols such as a headdress or a Maori ta moko. This is because these things are restricted; you have to earn the right to wear one in the appropriate culture, and when we wear these things without earning them, we dishonour and cheapen the thing. We do this is western cultures too, by making it illegal to impersonate cops or claiming to have some sort f education or training that they do not.


I think this whole "cultural appropriation movement" is mostly BS. I am hard pressed to find good, solid examples of what could constitute a legitimate violation on a people's culture. Making a movie about events in egypt, middle east and/or asia and having an all-caucasian (or mostly all-caucasian) cast might come as close as I can imagine and this is more of a nuisance than a legitimate infringement on cultural issues. Coming up at the end of October, a bunch of kids will be knocking on my door dressed as police officers, doctors, nurses... have they "earned" the right to appropriate their uniforms? Perhaps Native americans should be banned from wearing suits... they shouldn't be going to the opera because this could be seen as cultural appropriation, but if they do go to the opera they probably should wear some bear fur and feathers on their head just to make sure they are not seen as culturally appropriating western culture.
Asian people are the worse offenders. Most of our WESTERN clothes are manufactured by chinese, vietnamesse companies in asia... I guess they didn't get the memo.
Look, I sympathize with native americans, they got screwed just as much as black did when the european invaded the Americas. However, culture is fluid and will assimilate/integrate/evolve. I am sure sometimes they won't like the way it is used/expressed... Tough luck.
#15194623
XogGyux wrote:I think this whole "cultural appropriation movement" is mostly BS. I am hard pressed to find good, solid examples of what could constitute a legitimate violation on a people's culture. Making a movie about events in egypt, middle east and/or asia and having an all-caucasian (or mostly all-caucasian) cast might come as close as I can imagine and this is more of a nuisance than a legitimate infringement on cultural issues.


Why do you think the OP is not an example of cultural appropriation?

Or are you saying that you do not feel it is significant?

Coming up at the end of October, a bunch of kids will be knocking on my door dressed as police officers, doctors, nurses... have they "earned" the right to appropriate their uniforms?


Well, since these are all western costumes being used in a western (actually Anglo-American) ritual, this is all good.

Perhaps Native americans should be banned from wearing suits... they shouldn't be going to the opera because this could be seen as cultural appropriation, but if they do go to the opera they probably should wear some bear fur and feathers on their head just to make sure they are not seen as culturally appropriating western culture.

Asian people are the worse offenders. Most of our WESTERN clothes are manufactured by chinese, vietnamesse companies in asia... I guess they didn't get the memo.


This is not comparable to anything I argued. Suits, and western apparel in general, are not restricted items.

If you wish to make a comparison, you would argue that Indigenous people should not be allowed to wear a police officer’s uniform. And this is actually the case: it is illegal for anyone (Indigenous or otherwise) to do so.

Look, I sympathize with native americans, they got screwed just as much as black did when the european invaded the Americas. However, culture is fluid and will assimilate/integrate/evolve. I am sure sometimes they won't like the way it is used/expressed... Tough luck.


Yes, culture is fluid and evolving. Right now, western societies are moving towards an understanding of cultural appropriation and how it can be harmful. This is why the Washington Redskins are no longer called that, the Cleveland Indians are now the Guardians, the Edmonton Eskimos are using their old name: the Elks, et cetera.
#15194631
@Pants-of-dog
Well, since these are all western costumes being used in a western (actually Anglo-American) ritual, this is all good.

So you are OK with this practice as long as the children trick-treating are caucasian? :lol: Mexican children need to be dressed as a drug dealer or as a landscaper. Black kids as a witch doctor and native americans as a casique?

This is not comparable to anything I argued. Suits, and western apparel in general, are not restricted items.

If you wish to make a comparison, you would argue that Indigenous people should not be allowed to wear a police officer’s uniform. And this is actually the case: it is illegal for anyone (Indigenous or otherwise) to do so.

So you are saying that these shoes are restricted to be used by only a certain portion of people within the Native American tribes and because of their restrictive nature, the use by anyone that has not earned the right to wear shoes they should not wear them?

How about casinos... in my state, the casinos are owned by tribes... these people are culturally appropriating western vices! They should stop.

Besides, 9/10 complaints about "cultural appropriation" is a white blond caucasian girl wearing locks "culturally appropriating black's hairstyles", I say to this... fuck off. So much nonsense. There are so many hideous things in this world and you wasting your time policing what people wear, sign, style their hair, tattoo their arms/legs and decorate their homes?
Last edited by XogGyux on 16 Oct 2021 19:09, edited 1 time in total.
#15194632
XogGyux wrote:So you are OK with this practice as long as the children trick-treating are caucasian? :lol: Mexican children need to be dressed as a drug dealer or as a landscaper. Black kids as a witch doctor and native americans as a casique?


So you are saying that these shoes are restricted to be used by only a certain portion of people within the Native American tribes and because of their restrictive nature, the use by anyone that has not earned the right to wear shoes they should not wear them?

How about casinos... in my state, the casinos are owned by tribes... these people are culturally appropriating western vices! They should stop.

Besides, 9/10 complaints about "cultural appropriation" is a white blond caucasian girl wearing locks "culturally appropriating black's hairstyles", I say to this... fuck off. So much nonsense. There are so many hideous things in this world and you wasting your time policing what people wear, sign, style their hair, tattoo their arms/legs and decorate their homes?


Yes, culture is fluid and evolving. Right now, western societies are moving towards an understanding of cultural appropriation and how it can be harmful. This is why the Washington Redskins are no longer called that, the Cleveland Indians are now the Guardians, the Edmonton Eskimos are using their old name: the Elks, et cetera.

The redskin issue is more to do with racism than with cultural appropriation. Frankly, it's tasteless. It's like calling your bar "The N*****'s pub". You are not culturally appropriating anything, you are just being a racist turd. There is a huge difference.
#15194634
XogGyux wrote:@Pants-of-dog

So you are OK with this practice as long as the children trick-treating are caucasian? :lol: Mexican children need to be dressed as a drug dealer or as a landscaper. Black kids as a witch doctor and native americans as a casique?


No, that is not what I argued.

Again, kids of any colour or ethnicity can dress up as doctors and cops because it is not cultural appropriation.

So you are saying that these shoes are restricted to be used by only a certain portion of people within the Native American tribes and because of their restrictive nature, the use by anyone that has not earned the right to wear shoes they should not wear them?


No. I am actually saying the exact opposite.

Shoes are NOT restricted.

So, wearing moccasins is not racist or cultural appropriation.

How about casinos... in my state, the casinos are owned by tribes... these people are culturally appropriating western vices! They should stop.


Again, since casinos are not restricted, you are comparing apples to oranges, i.e. not restricted to restricted.

Besides, 9/10 complaints about "cultural appropriation" is a white blond caucasian girl wearing locks "culturally appropriating black's hairstyles", I say to this... fuck off. So much nonsense. There are so many hideous things in this world and you wasting your time policing what people wear, sign, style their hair, tattoo their arms/legs and decorate their homes?


I am not aware of any stats showing the relative number of claims about cultural appropriation.

And you are correct that this is not an important issue for many people. I tend to follow the discussion around cultural appropriation of Indigenous art and culture in Canada, because it affects people in my community, and Indigenous people here definitely have bigger fish to fry.

Having said that, this does not seem to contradict any of my claims.
#15194636
Blackpink's Lisa recently had cultural appropriation allegations put up against her and she apologised for her hairstyle in the Money performance video after fans expressed their concern over the alleged cultural appropriation of the black community. But in Asia, cultural appropriation is equated with one community or nation's soft power, which is very flattering for the appropriated. South Korea is extremely pleased with the global success of K-pop, which is appropriated by black or Hispanic teens in the US.



Minnetonka is now a global brand like Nike and its retail shops can be found anywhere around the world, including my region. Minnetonka has to worry about its brand image especially because its Canadian rival is actually a Native-owned company and 50% of the workforce is from the local Indian community.

In the past, its products were misleadingly promoted as if they were created by Native artists/designers. Minnetonka updated the brand language on its website and redesigned the logo to remove culturally appropriated symbols.

Our brand language: Words are powerful in their ability to raise awareness, share knowledge, and broaden perspectives. We have made updates to the language we use in telling our story and describing our products, Our updates will provide greater transparency and more direct acknowledgment of Native American influence across our website, packaging and other communication channels. We are committed to constantly re-examining all of this as we continue to learn more. This year, we redesigned our logo to remove culturally appropriated symbols. You can see more about our logo redesign here.
https://www.minnetonkamoccasin.com//our ... Commitment
Last edited by ThirdTerm on 17 Oct 2021 02:42, edited 1 time in total.
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