[ckaihatsu]

I did mention we are en route to be like just about any other failed democracy.

Here's the thing, though -- they're not comparable, really.

The U.S. isn't about to just get *colonized*, like all of Latin America by the Europeans.

The U.S. is a military and financial *empire*, still, and has the world's largest military and also the world's reserve currency, the U.S. dollar.

Also consider that the *whole world*, give-or-take, is experiencing the same 20+ years of economic stagnation -- there's been no real 'new sector' to get people's blood moving again economically, since the let's-build-the-Internet dotcom period.

So all of this palace-intrigue, "political" stuff is interesting and everything, but it's just moving chairs around on the deck, as the saying goes.

In the case of the U.S. country and its people, there *has* to be some kind of direction for sailing because the whole thing is just too big, with too much momentum of its own, to simply *ignore*, or to let-fall to larger predators.

[ckaihatsu]

From the 1930s to the 1970s, authoritarian governments employed political repression and limited reform to maintain power, despite the trappings of democracy. The National Conciliation Party was in power from the early 1960s until 1979. Gen. Fidel Sánchez Hernández was president from 1967 to 1972, Col Arturo A. Molina from 1972 to 1977, and the last one was Gen Carlos Humberto Romero from 1977 to 1979.

During the 1970s, there was great political instability. In the 1972 presidential election, opponents of military rule united under José Napoleón Duarte, leader of the Christian Democratic Party (PDC). Amid widespread fraud, Duarte's broad-based reform movement was defeated. Subsequent protests and an attempted coup were crushed and Duarte exiled. These events eroded hope of reform through democratic means and persuaded those opposed to the government that armed insurrection was the only way to achieve change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_El_Salvador#Military_dictatorships_(1931%E2%80%931979)

[Drlee]

Do you guys think there will be death squads roaming the streets after the Republicans run their coup successfully?

What if I said there already are such things and they are just waiting for the chance. I am talking about the militias and right wing loonies collecting guns and waiting.....

Here is what I know Rancid. To believe me you have to take off your dad hat and put on your single guy hat. Follow me down the rabbit hole.

These gun fanatics are living in a grown up fantasy world. Take a look at Harry Potter. It was the absolute ultimate male fantasy. Harry is middle class and wants for nothing other than he lives under the metaphorical stairs. He is subject to authority he dislikes. We are not told exactly why but are given to know that his parents ignore how wonderful he is. Though he is dead middle class he always "knew" there was something "special" about himself. So what man doesn't believe that?

Now. Once Harry is freed from his mundane life he is famous. What is the first thing that Harry gets? A gun (wand). The second thing is the company of a very pretty girl. And he has a sidekick. Finally he is solidly on the side of good.

The absolute male fantasy. From construction worker to dangerous but virtuous defender of God and country. Feared by "bad" (liberal) people far and near. Potently carrying his shoulder holster and his assault rifle. And his charge in the cause of righteousness? Clean up the world. Get the girl. (Or take her. After all she was just the cheerleader (liberal) girl who spurned him in High School.)

We have seen this all before. How is it that a country of first rate science and the arts, a democracy, highly educated, and economically rising, could exterminate 6 million people using bug spray and car exhaust? How could they have squads of semi-soldiers that stripped women and children naked, marched them to a ditch and shot them one at a time? And who was their leader? A cartoon like figure, not particularly educated, but possessed with the absolute conviction about his own ideals and a talented communicator. He did not set the intelligentsia on fire but the middle of the bell curve loved him. And what story did he tell to the disenfranchised YOUNG MEN that rallied to his flag? Harry Potter. They are oppressed by the forces of darkness. But they are special. Aryans! The master race. The rest were Jews and muggles. The Jews must be eliminated and the muggles put in their place. Arm! Take to the streets. Like Rittenhouse, grab your gun and hurry to defend democracy from antifa!

No @Rancid I most certainly think this is more than possible. At this point it is almost looking likely.

How about Rittenhouse's acquittal. How about the Proud Boys and even more frightening Promise Keepers... But we are an enlightened and moral country. We could not stoop that low. Really? How many children do we have in cages as we speak. The whole nation has, just like the everyday German in 1935, pretty much ignored that little children do not know where their parents went, are sleeping on cots in fenced in cages, under emergency blankets, and are far from certain of their future. We just did an disastrous bug-out in Afghanistan leaving tens of thousands of men, women and children to a very likely very bad future. If they have a future at all. We are ignoring the fact that one in three black males will go to prison at some time in their lifetime. One in six Latinos.

But the Nazis rose from economic hardship you say. You mean like 50% of American workers cannot afford a one bedroom apartment on their pay? That these American workers do not have real health care nor any prospect of affording it? The Nazis arose from squabbling political parties comprising a do-nothing government that only served the wealthy when serving anyone at all? Does any of that ring a bell?

So there arose a leader who had absolutely no credentials to lead other than the very real willingness to ruthlessly pursue and destroy his political enemies? Could that happen here? It already did. And it very well may happen again in 2024. And will Trump go after his brown shirts when they are going after his political enemies just because they grab some neighbor girl by the pussy? Like the Reichstag's powerless rubber stampers, what will the Republican majority do? They already shit their pants at the very mention of his name and though he was ignominiously voted out of office remains the most powerful man in America.

But the Democrats. What of them? Well let's not go there. They can't pass gas not to mention powerful democratic protections. They are beating their meat trying to get child care credits while the country is doing away with one person one vote.

But the military. They won't let it happen. Well. I am not certain of that either. The military first follows orders. All the better when they like the orders. They are a mostly conservative organization and deeply self protective. The ranks are not filled with liberal or even centrist political types. Will it follow orders? It will. Whose? Whoever is President with bonus points if he is a conservative. Would they depose a popular despot? I am not sure they could if they wanted to.

Finally. The break up of the states into individual political units free from oversight by the central government is not beyond the realm of possibility. Your own Texas would make a splendid country as would California. Snag the nukes that are in virtually every state or coalition of states and what sticks them back together again? And the law in those states? Could Texas look at black crime and see the need for draconian measures? Work camps? Maybe "assign" black miscreants to work in some persons home or business. See where that is going?

Yes I am way out in left field. I know it. But just consider what I wrote and coldly and dispassionately ask yourself...what if....

So yes Rancid I think it actually could happen.

[ckaihatsu]

Your own Texas would make a splendid country as would California.

Kicking-and-screaming....

In 2002, Texas had isolated its power grid from the two major national grids in a successful effort to reduce power costs in the state and deregulate its energy sector. This disconnection made it difficult for the state to import electricity from other states during the crisis.[17]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis

[Drlee]

Wait. You think that the power grid with constrain Texas?

[ckaihatsu]

Wait. You think that the power grid with constrain Texas?

No, I'm saying that Texas looks bad when it can't hack its own energy needs alone, separate from the main energy grids in the country. Look at the catastrophe / fallout from that -- sheerly preventable.

Some people get so wrapped up in the playing-cards statuses of various personages, that they forget that 'decentralization' makes for a *logistical* nightmare, like requiring everyone to grow their own food, or something similarly *redundant* / balkanizing in practice.

[Drlee]

Leadership does not care about any of that. Despots don't starve.

Texas is a massive oil producer and could produce food very nicely. It is huge. It is no more difficult for the US to morph into a loose confederation of states than it is to notice the National distinctions in the EU. (A loose confederation of states is what it was intended to be in the first place.)

[ckaihatsu]

Jason Stanley Warns - 'America Is Now in Fascism’s Legal Phase' _ Amanpour and Company

[ckaihatsu]

Leadership does not care about any of that. Despots don't starve.

Texas is a massive oil producer and could produce food very nicely. It is huge. It is no more difficult for the US to morph into a loose confederation of states than it is to notice the National distinctions in the EU. (A loose confederation of states is what it was intended to be in the first place.)

Good example, but then why did the European equivalent of a *belly flop* happen -- *Brexit* -- if widespread balkanization is so desirable, and to be preferred -- ?

You're arguing Articles-of-Confederation and states' rights here, but what about the issue of *slavery* -- ? How would the country ensure that blacks would be able to freely travel anywhere in the country without being subject to states-rights *enslavement* (for example) -- ?

[Drlee]

You're arguing Articles-of-Confederation and states' rights here, but what about the issue of *slavery* -- ? How would the country ensure that blacks would be able to freely travel anywhere in the country without being subject to states-rights *enslavement* (for example) -- ?

The USA in 1850. I can imagine that "blacks" might not be able to "travel anywhere in the country".

I see judicial slavery as an already done deal. Just one more step and the institution itself is back. It might look a bit different just to keep trading with the world. Consider the lot of undocumented immigrants. We are not exactly offering them the bounties of free market capitalism.

My great, great, great great grandfather owned 6 female slaves. One black age 34, one mulatto age 17, one black age 16, one black age 14, one black age 13 and one mulatto age 10. I will let you consign that bit of information to your baser mind for a moment.

There is no unimaginable. Limits are imposed by winners on losers. The judgement of history is the judgement of either winners or bystanders observing winners.

[Doug64]

Do you believe Trump won the election in 2020?

When you take out all the votes not cast in accordance with the laws passed by state legislatures, thanks to the unconstitutional alterations made by state executive officers and judges, most likely yes. Trump only needed an additional 20,000 votes in one state and 10,000 each in two other states to win. Since all those invalid votes are inextricably mixed with the valid ones, we'll likely never know if Biden was validly elected or not--Which is why he is forever going to be President Biden*.

Trump didn't win in 2016, he lost....

Trump: 304 electoral votes, from 30 states plus 1 from Maine
Clinton: 227 electoral votes, from 19 states plus 3 from Maine & 3 from DC

That is crazy talk.

Trump's lawyers took that to court and lost big every time, but once. That one time was a procedural motion, meaning it did not speak to the issue facing the court.

I said 2016, not 2020.

[Unthinking Majority]

When you take out all the votes not cast in accordance with the laws passed by state legislatures, thanks to the unconstitutional alterations made by state executive officers and judges, most likely yes. Trump only needed an additional 20,000 votes in one state and 10,000 each in two other states to win. Since all those invalid votes are inextricably mixed with the valid ones, we'll likely never know if Biden was validly elected or not--Which is why he is forever going to be President Biden*

Evidence?

[colliric]

Mao actually wanted to repeat history....

"He [Ch'in-Shih-huang, the first emperor of China] only buried alive 460 scholars, while we buried 46,000. In our suppression of the counterrevolutionaries, did we not kill some counterrevolutionary intellectuals? I once debated with the democratic people: You accuse us of acting like Ch'in-shih-huang, but you are wrong; we surpass him 100 times." - Mao's First Speech to the Party Congress, May 17, 1958.

Say what you like about the Great Helmsman, but at least he said it like it was.

Assassin Jing-Ke is basically seen as the villain in Mainland Communist China, and Records Of The Grand Historian by Sima Qian is literally a banned book. Didn't know that until I went there.

This is in spite of the fact they allow Chinese movies like the 2002 flick Hero starring Jet Li and the classic 1998 Gong Li starring film The Emperor and the Assassin, to be based on it, and present Jing Ke as a hero, anyway.

[ckaihatsu]

It is no more difficult for the US to morph into a loose confederation of states

You're arguing Articles-of-Confederation and states' rights here,

I see judicial slavery as an already done deal.

It might look a bit different just to keep trading with the world.

So you're acknowledging that 'trade with the world' requires some kind of *centralization*, with all of the power dynamics that that entails, as we saw last year on January 6th.

[Potemkin]

Assassin Jing-Ke is basically seen as the villain in Mainland Communist China, and Records Of The Grand Historian by Sima Qian is literally a banned book. Didn't know that until I went there.

This is in spite of the fact they allow Chinese movies like the 2002 flick Hero starring Jet Li and the classic 1998 Gong Li starring film The Emperor and the Assassin, to be based on it, and present Jing Ke as a hero, anyway.

They allow it, but only so long as they acknowledge the necessity of the First Emperor. He was a tyrant - the Chinese government openly acknowledges that - but he unified the nation and made it strong against foreign barbarians by building the Great Wall. Mao openly identified himself with the First Emperor, so criticism of Qin Shi Huang is implicitly criticism of Chairman Mao himself.

[Rich]

Mao openly identified himself with the First Emperor, so criticism of Qin Shi Huang is implicitly criticism of Chairman Mao himself.

But Deng did say that not all Mao Zedong's thoughts were true Mao Zedong thought.

[Potemkin]

But Deng did say that not all Mao Zedong's thoughts were true Mao Zedong thought.

And not all Deng’s thoughts were true Deng thought.

[noemon]

(1) Nobody stormed any building in American history to steal the election in American history.

Of course Roger Stone stormed the Florida ballots in what has been called the Brooks Brothers Riots, he did that explicitly to stop the recount and he succeeded. The recount was stopped, the result was declared by a Judge without taking into account the ballots that had been stormed in Florida and when the recount eventually took place, Al Gore was the victor.

Al Gore was a bigger man who did not issue an order to his supporters to go storm the Capitol despite the fact that he actually won the election certifiably.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Br ... terference.

https://eu.tallahassee.com/story/opinio ... 742713002/

In addition, the Netflix documentary shows clear video footage of Roger Stone organizing the riots and then physically storming the ballots in Florida with the expressed intent to stop the recount.

He was also behind the storming of the Capitol last year.

I had actually heard that the reason that Bush was tanked was because he questioned the importance of Israel, which caused a great rift among conservatives.

@Patrickov

Hey Patrickov, observe Verv's argument, the only reason he is mentioning this in an argument about the "establishment", is because American nationalists/white supremacists identify the "establishment" with "Jews". So Republicans(including Trump) have a tradition of making minor passing comments or threats with no actual political or economic effect on Israel just to ensure that American white supremacists(aka useful idiots) have their backs in the elections. Trump said something funny about the Israeli lobby and then went on to recognize Jerusalem. Bush withheld loan guarantees for 10 million and then a month later approved 10 billion dollars in aid for Israel. Between himself and his son they went on to destroy most(if not all) functioning states in the M-E.

[jimjam]

Biden/Cheney 2024?

[ckaihatsu]

I did mention we are en route to be like just about any other failed democracy.

Also like to add that the way to address the almost-coup isn't with any kind of 'election laws reforms', as the Democrats are pushing right now, but by *prosecuting Trump* -- after all, what good are more-laws if you're not even going to *use* them when punishments are appropriate.