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User avatar
By Verv
#15207012
noemon wrote:Of course Roger Stone stormed the Florida ballots in what has been called the Brooks Brothers Riots, he did that explicitly to stop the recount and he succeeded. The recount was stopped, the result was declared by a Judge without taking into account the ballots that had been stormed in Florida and when the recount eventually took place, Al Gore was the victor.

Al Gore was a bigger man who did not issue an order to his supporters to go storm the Capitol despite the fact that he actually won the election certifiably.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Br ... terference.

https://eu.tallahassee.com/story/opinio ... 742713002/

In addition, the Netflix documentary shows clear video footage of Roger Stone organizing the riots and then physically storming the ballots in Florida with the expressed intent to stop the recount.

He was also behind the storming of the Capitol last year.


(1) I am aware that the Wikipedia articles alleges that recounts show Gore as the winner of Florida. It's very interesting to think Gore would have won by less than 150 votes (in any scenario).

(2) I am unaware of the Brooks Brothers riot narrative -- the regime would like to remember it like this:

"Republicans objected to this change of plans. John E. Sweeney of New York, nicknamed "Congressman Kick-Ass" by President Bush for his work in Florida,[10] set the incident in motion[11] by telling an aide to 'stop them'[1][12] and to "Shut it down."[1][12] The demonstration turned violent and, according to The New York Times, "several people were trampled, punched or kicked when protesters tried to rush the doors outside the office of the Miami-Dade supervisor of elections. Sheriff's deputies restored order." Democratic National Committee aide Luis Rosero claimed to be kicked and punched outside of Leahy's office.[13] Within two hours after the event, the canvassing board unanimously voted to shut down the count, in part due to perceptions that the process was not open or fair, and in part because the court-mandated deadline had become impossible to meet, due to the interference.[13][14]"

Wikipedia

I am not sure. It sounds entirely plausible.

I am also not going to devote hours of my life internet sleuthing the topic.

(2) It is interesting to suggest that Roger Stone had intended to launch what essentially amounted to a coup d'etat on J6 because he took part in the previous event twenty years ago, which is not that similar because it is not even remotely conceivable that a similar effect could have been produced by what happened on J6, and the scale and character of it is completely different, IMO.

@Patrickov

Hey Patrickov, observe Verv's argument, the only reason he is mentioning this in an argument about the "establishment", is because American nationalists/white supremacists identify the "establishment" with "Jews". So Republicans(including Trump) have a tradition of making minor passing comments or threats with no actual political or economic effect on Israel just to ensure that American white supremacists(aka useful idiots) have their backs in the elections. Trump said something funny about the Israeli lobby and then went on to recognize Jerusalem. Bush withheld loan guarantees for 10 million and then a month later approved 10 billion dollars in aid for Israel. Between himself and his son they went on to destroy most(if not all) functioning states in the M-E.


Right, sure, I would say that the GOP is at all interested in not supporting Israel. The only hope Palestinians have is from the Left who actually has put people in office like Tlaib who will actually vote against Israel. Even AOC, who will publicly cry for Palestine, will still not vote against Israel.

The closest thing to a semblance of Republican sentiment that is against Israel are the folk Libertarians that are isolationists.

Steve Bannon, who is frequently invoked by the Left as the crypto-Nazi behind Trump, stated that he is proud to be a 'Christian Zionist' (his words, not mine).

The GOP is more pro-Israel than anyone, and Donald Trump is the King of Israel, and his family is largely Jewish:

Ivanka Trump is considered the strongest woman in the president-elect’s business and election campaign. She converted to Judaism eight years ago before marrying Jewish businessman Jared Kushner in a process performed by Rabbi Haskel Lookstein of Manhattan. Ivanka belongs to his congregation and says she lives as an Orthodox Jew, observing Shabbat and kashrut laws. She has said in past interviews that her father supported her decision to convert.


Ynetnews.com

Of course, Bannon & Trump represented an alternative to normal Republicanism, but, if anything, it is more Zionist than the Neocons.
#15207052
Doug64 wrote:When you take out all the votes not cast in accordance with the laws passed by state legislatures, thanks to the unconstitutional alterations made by state executive officers and judges, most likely yes. Trump only needed an additional 20,000 votes in one state and 10,000 each in two other states to win.Since all those invalid votes are inextricably mixed with the valid ones, we'll likely never know if Biden was validly elected or not--Which is why he is forever going to be President Biden*.


Trump: 304 electoral votes, from 30 states plus 1 from Maine
Clinton: 227 electoral votes, from 19 states plus 3 from Maine & 3 from DC


I said 2016, not 2020.

The people who voted in a way the Repuds say is unconstitutional, did so in good faith. It was entirely legal. If they could not have voted by mail for example, many of them would have still voted. How many? Nobody will ever know.

What I do know is that changing the rules AFTER to voting is over is forbidden. We need this rule or we will get chaos.
.
User avatar
By Drlee
#15207053
This whole "stop the steal" ploy is aimed at the left side of the bell curve. Smart Republicans, and there are a few, do not believe it for a second.

Meanwhile, led by Senator Mike Rounds, (R), increasing numbers of Republican party leaders are calling for the false narrative to stop. It won't. It is part of Putin's plan.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15207065
Drlee wrote:This whole "stop the steal" ploy is aimed at the left side of the bell curve. Smart Republicans, and there are a few, do not believe it for a second.

Meanwhile, led by Senator Mike Rounds, (R), increasing numbers of Republican party leaders are calling for the false narrative to stop. It won't. It is part of Putin's plan.

Politics is all about constructing false narratives, @Drlee. That’s how you win.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15207069
late wrote:That's a false narrative...

…which, ironically, proves my point. :)
By Patrickov
#15207071
Potemkin wrote:Politics is all about constructing relatable false narratives. That’s how you win.


There, corrected for you.

The problem is some rogue countries don't even try to make their false narratives relatable, and with all their visions and systems for freedom and democracy the United States is definitely NOT one of these bastards.
By late
#15207072
Potemkin wrote:
…which, ironically, proves my point.



Nope.

If it were true, a thousand things the government does, wouldn't happen.

Cynicism has limits.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15207073
Patrickov wrote:There, corrected for you.

The problem is some rogue countries don't even try to make their false narratives relatable, and with all their visions and systems for freedom and democracy the United States is definitely NOT one of these bastards.

How relatable a false political narrative happens to be changes over historical time, and across different demographic groups, even if that narrative itself never changes. For example, when the Han Dynasty was founded, its false narrative was extremely relatable to the Chinese people; so much so, that the system set up by Liu Bang was still in place two thousand years later. But by then, the false political narrative he had employed in the chaos following the Qin collapse was no longer relatable to the vast majority of the Chinese people, and a revolution soon overthrew it. Hegel referred to ruling regimes being more or less "real" or "unreal", depending on how relatable their false narratives remained as history changed things around them. It seems that the political narrative of the CCP has become increasingly "unreal" in the Hegelian sense since 1949....
User avatar
By Rugoz
#15207091
Patrickov wrote:There, corrected for you.

The problem is some rogue countries don't even try to make their false narratives relatable, and with all their visions and systems for freedom and democracy the United States is definitely NOT one of these bastards.


"we're the virtuous and enlightened elite that knows best what is good for you" is a hard sell.
User avatar
By ckaihatsu
#15207136

The Prince is sometimes claimed to be one of the first works of modern philosophy, especially modern political philosophy, in which the "effectual" truth is taken to be more important than any abstract ideal. It is also notable for being in direct conflict with the dominant Catholic and scholastic doctrines of the time, particularly those concerning politics and ethics.[6][7]

Although it is relatively short, the treatise is the most remembered of Machiavelli's works, and the one most responsible for bringing the word "Machiavellian" into usage as a pejorative. It even contributed to the modern negative connotations of the words "politics" and "politician" in Western countries.[8] In subject matter, it overlaps with the much longer Discourses on Livy, which was written a few years later. In its use of near-contemporary Italians as examples of people who perpetrated criminal deeds for politics, another lesser-known work by Machiavelli to which The Prince has been compared is the Life of Castruccio Castracani.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince
User avatar
By XDU
#15207286
jimjam wrote:Odds are extremely high that 2022 will be the last year of our more than two centuries old "democratic experiment". Those of us who do not identify with the Trump cult must start to think seriously about how we will live under a totalitarian regime, because the odds right now are extremely high that we will.

So what will we do? A totalitarian regime always rules by fear. This means that we will keep our heads down. We will speak candidly only with our most trusted friends, and perhaps not even then. We will try not to rock the boat because we know what happens to those who incur Dear Leader's wrath.

Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it.


wat?

Do Trumpers even exist anymore outside of social media and way out in the boonies?

Seriously, where do you find these fascist types? I'd rather not be afraid of something that's not going to happen and spend my time getting things done that need to get done.
User avatar
By jimjam
#15207295
XDU wrote:wat?

Do Trumpers even exist anymore outside of social media and way out in the boonies?

Seriously, where do you find these fascist types? I'd rather not be afraid of something that's not going to happen and spend my time getting things done that need to get done.


I am simply observing the overall trend in America these days. Trump is simply a passing carnival act. The greater danger is the Republican/"conservative" movement for minority rule and their massive propaganda system. I am not at all afraid and am lucky ..... fear, anxiety and worry rarely enter my head.
User avatar
By XDU
#15207297
jimjam wrote:I am simply observing the overall trend in America these days. Trump is simply a passing carnival act. The greater danger is the Republican/"conservative" movement for minority rule and their massive propaganda system. I am not at all afraid and am lucky ..... fear, anxiety and worry rarely enter my head.


I'd say the greater danger is faux progressives who don't really do what they say they will. They preach all about diversity, equality, tolerance, creativity, and not being cruel, but there's a problem within their ranks where they expect some to suffer so others can be elevated. The classic example is when black people are told they seem white for being smart... even though among conservatives, anti-intellectualism is normal and being smart makes you seem liberal to them.

I don't think conservatism is going to remain a minority rule movement because a lot of disillusioned progressives learn this the hard way over time. It takes 10-20 years, but they eventually realize something wrong is going on. More importantly, they can't afford to deal with that something any longer.

Some of them initially flipped to becoming Trump supporters behind the "what do you have to lose" guise, but others realized Trump wasn't offering anything better.

A new dimension to politics is opening up. Trump hasn't created the seventh party system, but a new system is happening.
User avatar
By ckaihatsu
#15207317
XDU wrote:
wat?

Do Trumpers even exist anymore outside of social media and way out in the boonies?

Seriously, where do you find these fascist types? I'd rather not be afraid of something that's not going to happen and spend my time getting things done that need to get done.




State lawmakers

At least nineteen Republican current and former state legislators were present at the event.[note 11] All denied participating in acts of violence.[322]

West Virginia Delegate Derrick Evans filmed himself entering the Capitol alongside rioters. On January 8, he was charged by federal authorities with entering a restricted area;[323] he resigned from the House of Delegates the next day.[324] Amanda Chase was censured by the Virginia State Senate for her actions surrounding the event;[325] in response she filed a federal lawsuit against that body.[326] In May 2021, months after the riot, crowdsourced video analysis identified Doug Mastriano and his wife passing through a breached Capitol Police barricade, contradicting his previous claims; Mastriano dismissed these accusations as the work of "angry partisans" who were "foot soldiers of the ruling elite".[327]

Former United States Representative Dana Rohrabacher (CA-48) was filmed joining a crowd that breached a Capitol Police barricade on January 6; Rohrabacher was not charged with an offense.[328]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Unit ... _lawmakers
#15207327
If the Trumpsters steal an election and go pure fascist they'll break the social contract. Over half the country won't obey the laws he passes, the Dems won't recognize him as POTUS, and neither will allies. His admin will have no legitimacy. Democracy works because the losing side agrees to obey the law and government and recognize the winner even if it's not their preference.
User avatar
By ckaihatsu
#15207332
Unthinking Majority wrote:
If the Trumpsters steal an election and go pure fascist they'll break the social contract. Over half the country won't obey the laws he passes, the Dems won't recognize him as POTUS, and neither will allies. His admin will have no legitimacy. Democracy works because the losing side agrees to obey the law and government and recognize the winner even if it's not their preference.



Yeah, we've covered this ground already....



The book itself quotes Milley as telling his fellow officers, “They may try, but they're not going to f**king succeed. You can’t do this without the military... We’re the guys with the guns.”

The general’s message is unmistakable: without the military, failure; with it, success.

The truth is, where the “guys with the guns” would line up was by no means a sure thing. Milley himself exhibited no friction with Trump until after the infamous June 1, 2020 incident in which he marched with the president across Lafayette Square for a photo-op made possible by the violent dispersal of peaceful demonstrators. He later felt compelled to call his action a “mistake” as it became clear that Trump wanted to invoke the Insurrection Act and call the military into the streets on the pretext of crushing the nationwide George Floyd protests. Milley and other senior uniformed commanders feared that such a deployment could provoke mass resistance and lead to deep fissures within the military itself.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/0 ... s-j16.html



viewtopic.php?p=15181825#p15181825



Also:



Biden Justice Department defends Trump-ordered police sweep through Lafayette Park

Patrick Martin
30 May 2021

The Biden administration’s Department of Justice (DoJ) argued in federal court Friday in support of the police-military sweep of Lafayette Park in front of the White House last June 1, carried out on the orders of President Donald Trump.

The sweep targeted more than 1,000 peaceful demonstrators against police violence who filled the park one week after the police murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Police used pepper balls and smoke grenades, as well as clubs and shields, to drive out the demonstrators.



https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/0 ... a-m31.html
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