Why does America Suck at Everything? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15233704
Truth To Power wrote:Yeah, well, one reason so few have achieved it is that their democratically elected governments have been forcibly overthrown by the USA, because they put the interests of their own people above the narrow financial interests of rich Americans and the corporations they own.

And I will thank you to remember it.


Name a country that was a continuous democracy since before 1800 and had its government overthrown by the US.
#15233709
Igor Antunov wrote:Yeah but you got them around the wrong way.

Image

Image

Not to mention 90% of US inventors are foreigners and migrants. Intrinsically and long term America has nothing. It's just a transient meme, it has no staying power. It won't exist in 1,000 years.

Us is still coasting along on British financial system it inherited, british technology it stole and german engineers it pilfered after ww2. Well all that shit has run out.


Threatening nuclear war and having people die in some nuclear holocaust is not my idea of a better world.

The real challenge for the USA is going to be creating out of the many people from all the countries in the world a cohesive set of values that is free of elitism and exclusive wealth that is increasingly in fewer and fewer hands. The government is only responding to narrow financial and economic interests and not to the on-the-ground voting people's desires and policies.

The problem is what the average USA voter thinks is happening in the USA and what is actually happening. They underestimated how huge the gap in inequality and wealth has gotten.



So the reality is that the USA is getting the inequality of the Latino nations. It will have the problems for the Latino nations. Not due to culture. Due to economic policy. And who is sucking up the resources? Period. You criticize the Latin Americans but if the problem with us is inequality and an elite with overblown wealth? And you follow the same neoliberal mentality that was implemented in our nations mostly with guns and force and not via ballot? You get the same result.

Poverty, beggars, crumbling infrastructure, debt high, low savings and etc. It is not about culture. it is about POLICY folks.
#15233710
America doesn't suck at everything. This is a statement that comes from a very privileged outlook at that.

America has a shit ton of problems, of course, and is under threat from inside (Trumptards), but it's hardly a failed state (yet).
#15233712
Rancid wrote:America doesn't suck at everything. This is a statement that comes from a very privileged outlook at that.

America has a shit ton of problems, of course, and is under threat from inside (Trumptards), but it's hardly a failed state (yet).


You made me laugh at this statement. You got some doubts like (yet). Lol.

Yes, the caravans of immigrants come for the American Dream. Will they find it? Statistics say that the USA has less social mobility and economic mobility than the UK and Australia and other nations. You are going to most probably make less than your parents made in their day.

But it will be a failed state if you don't get control of people who want to overthrow the government from the extreme Right. That is the truth. They are not going to stop trying to seize power by force. They are fairly disorganized. But if you give them breathing room and time? And you keep those Manchin, Sinema-type democrats in the party without consequences? You are not going to get change.

You will allow them to even with smaller numbers seize power by force. The fault for that is being unprincipled people and being bribed by the same group as the Republicans. Get the money out of politics? Or you will become a failed state.
#15233718
America is so bad that we have welfare recipients who don't even work, but are fat and have 4 TV's with cable in their Gov subsidized apartment. They all have cell phones. And the Gov gives them free money for gambling, drugs, and booze.
#15233735
wat0n wrote:Name a country that was a continuous democracy since before 1800 and had its government overthrown by the US.

Does such a transparently disingenuous strawman fallacy -- specifically, upward redefinition -- really enable you to evade the fact that the USA has forcibly overthrown democratically elected governments, preventing them from sustaining their democracies as long as the USA? As Trump might say: Sad.
#15233738
Scamp wrote:America is so bad that we have welfare recipients who don't even work, but are fat and have 4 TV's with cable in their Gov subsidized apartment. They all have cell phones. And the Gov gives them free money for gambling, drugs, and booze.


Do you want to stop the Hondurans telling them they are going to not work, get fat and have 4 TVs?

When they come from this?



You need to tell the truth. Without some skills and English and being non US citizens they don't qualify for food stamps, welfare or subidized housing. They are going to have to work two minimum wage jobs and hit the food bank. Or church basement. And they will have to work those jobs without work permits which means they can work all day and get stiffed and not paid for the hours they put in Scampy. I know I used to work with Hondurans without work permits. None of them will ever ask the government for handouts. Too scared of being found out by not having the proper social security numbers, and address that is permanent. They are hoping for help to transition into paid work with permission. They have no idea what the USA is like at all. Don't understand the system. If you don't work in Honduras you don't eat or have a floor or walls or a damn thing.

Painting those pictures of USA poverty is only going to fire them up Scampy.
#15233740
Truth To Power wrote:Does such a transparently disingenuous strawman fallacy -- specifically, upward redefinition -- really enable you to evade the fact that the USA has forcibly overthrown democratically elected governments, preventing them from sustaining their democracies as long as the USA? As Trump might say: Sad.


You claimed other countries would have been able to claim to be continuous constitutional democracies for 250 years, as the US has, had it not been for US meddling.

I don't know of any. Most of the countries where the US was involved in coups and the like don't fit that standard, mine included.
#15233744
Tainari88 wrote:
Poverty, beggars, crumbling infrastructure, debt high, low savings and etc. It is not about culture. it is about POLICY folks.


It is also about culture -- caudillo culture, in which a large portion of Latin America places its faith in authoritarian, populist male leaders.
#15233751
Robert Urbanek wrote:It is also about culture -- caudillo culture, in which a large portion of Latin America places its faith in authoritarian, populist male leaders.


You mean like Trump? I disqualify him. He came up with a bone spur excuse. Meanwhile Latin America has had various women presidents. The USA has 0 female presidents. Latin America has had let me see?
A lot more than the USA has had.


María Estela Martínez de Perón, best known as “Isabel” Perón, was not only the first female president of Latin America but the first female president of any republic in the world. As vice president of Argentina in 1974, Perón rose to power upon the death of then-husband and President Juan Domingo Perón. Criticized for her lack of experience in government affairs — something true of countless men that have held the same office — Perón came to power in a context of extreme economic crisis, strikes and paramilitary activities supported by the government. She was deposed in a coup and arrested after 632 days in office.

Three years later, in November 1979, also under a highly unstable political environment, Lidia Gueiler was elected Bolivia’s Constitutional Interim President. On top of an assassination attempt, Gueiler faced a complex socioeconomic scenario: As part of her stabilization plan, Gueiler allowed a 25% devaluation in the peso and cancelled energy subsidies, exacerbating existing social tensions. No candidate succeeded in winning a majority in the 1980 elections, and a coup toppled Guelier from power later that year.

A decade later, Violeta Barrios Torres — best known by her husband’s last name, Chamorro — became the first woman in the Americas to be elected president. She governed Nicaragua over a tumultuous seven-year period, in which she would disarm and offer peace to the Contras, combat four-digit inflation, restructure one of the highest per-capita foreign debts in the region and negotiate a large foreign aid package from the U.S.

In 1997, three different figures claimed Ecuador’s presidency, one of them Vice President Rosalía Arteaga, who held the temporary presidency less than a week (Feb. 9-11). When Congress voted to remove then-President Abdalá Bucaram, the latter insisted he had been illegally overthrown. Per the Constitution, Arteaga should have assumed power and called new elections, but Congress decided to name its own leader, Fabián Alarcón, as interim president, thus triggering “the night of the three presidents.” After assuming power via decree, Arteaga chose to resign two days later rather than allowing Congress to remove her from office.

Two years later, Mireya Moscoso was elected president of Panama. During her five-year term, Moscoso, who had lost a 1993 presidential run by a 4% margin, would manage the return of the Panama Canal from the U.S. as well as the fallout from the resignation of her entire cabinet. She would also sign off on Panama’s founding membership in the Central American Integration System (SICA) — still a hallmark political and economic agreement in the region — and ensure Panama a seat in the Central American Parliament (PARLACEN).

Michelle Bachelet first became president of Chile in 2006 before winning a second nonconsecutive mandate from 2014 to 2018 with 62% of votes. Although her two mandates vary largely in context and priorities, both administrations placed a clear emphasis on social issues — everything from education and labor reforms to abortion and civil unions — and the transformation of Chile’s energy matrix, with renewables’ share of the energy supply surging from 5% to more than 20% under her watch.

Cristina Fernández de Kirchner governed Argentina from 2007 to 2015. The current vice president of the country was Argentina’s first elected woman president and the first in Latin America to be reelected to a second term (2011). Despite being remembered by some as “the authoritarian populist,” as she herself wrote in her memoirs in 2019, and facing a series of corruption accusations, Kirchner represents a polarized but strong current in favor of the vindication of social rights in Argentina, including those of women.

In 2008, halfway into the mandate of her predecessor, Laura Chinchilla, then vice president of Costa Rica, resigned and announced she would run for president in 2010. After winning by a wide margin, she would go on to usher Costa Rica through its recovery from the global financial crisis, achieving one of the highest and most consistent growth rates in Central America during her tenure (4.4% on average). She managed this alongside one of the most drastic energy transitions in the region (renewables would account for 90% of energy production by the end of her mandate) and the implementation of a “citizen security” strategy that led to significant reductions in both criminality and homicides.

In 2011, Dilma Rousseff became the first woman to hold the presidency of the seventh-largest economy in the world and largest in the region. She committed to a virtuous circle of harnessing oil, boosting the economy and combating extreme poverty. After an average growth of 4.4% from 2004 to 2010, Brazil’s economy slowed abruptly and by the end, Rousseff’s 2011-2016 presidency was mired in the country’s worst recession in more than a century. Though Rousseff had edged out a win in a tight bid for reelection, she was impeached in 2016 due to an alleged violation of the budget law.

At the end of the decade, and as a result of a constitutional crisis, Mercedes Aráoz became acting president of Peru on Sep. 30, 2019. She presented her resignation the following day.

After the resignations of Evo Morales, his vice president and the rest of the officials in the line of succession, Second Vice President of the Senate Jeanine Áñez became interim president of Bolivia on Nov. 12, 2019. She declined to participate in the 2020 electoral process to avoid dividing votes from the opposition and was detained under sedition charges in March 2021 in what many view as political persecution by the current Morales-linked regime. Taken from AQ magazine.

A lack of representation
You are going to have to be specific with which country because each country is different. Which nation are you talking about Robert?


https://www.britannica.com/topic/list-o ... ca-2061416

Which ones are you talking about?

Robert did you study the history of each nation enough to make statements like the authoritarian caudillo is the stereotype?

Let us start with naming one nation in Latin America who had something happen politically that never happened in the USA?

Off the top of my head? Presidents heads being blown off or presidential candidates too? Hmm. Did that happen in the USA? Yes.

Corrupt politicians taking bribes and payoffs and doing illegal things like sending people to break into the political party of oppositions headquarters?

Being assassinated while in office?



Jailing or killing off leaders of movements creating pressure for changes in policy of the sitting status quo government? Who was MLK Jr, Malcolm X and some people arrested with the name of Bobby Seal and Abby Hoffman, Tom Hayden and the Chicago7?

Political prisoners in jail? I know a few Puerto Ricans off the top of my head.
Having civil wars? Enslaving Africans and Indigenous people? How about just massacres of Indians? No that did not happen in the USA.
Banks ripping off average citizens and having a run on banks and stock market crashes? 1929 ring a bell?
Lawlessness and lack of criminal justice system working? Cowboy movies? Clint Eastwood folks? :lol:

Torturing prisoners due to being enemies and holding them without due proces or a trial? Due to the patriot Act being passed not having to get warrants for wiretapping or interventions and spying on domestic populations and keeping information on average citizens? Snowden, etc.

Disappearing paperwork and killing people related to national security issues? Hmm. Who could that be?

Organized crime and drug dealers? None of those in the USA. The Godfather is not based on actual Mafia people in the USA. No. No stealing from Jersey airports and illegal liquor sales, drug sales, etc. No American citizen drug dealers or drug runners. No. Those are the Latin Americans. The ones with the genetic predisposition for the drug dealing. :lol:

Guns and shootings in the street and in the schools? That happens in the USA doesn't it?

Dead bodies showing up and no one knows why they show up? No, that doesn't happen in the USA.

Politicians taking bribes? From corporations. The thing is that is illegal in Mexico and they got to do it behind closed doors taking risks of being caught. In the USA it is legal. It is called Citizens United SCOTUS case and it is legal to pay politicians to represent your interests. It is called PAC and Super PACs and slush funds and black budgets and lobbyists.

What else happens only in Latin America? And not in the USA?

Aha, I know....military generals plotting to take over the presidency and assassinate or imprison the prez in order to put in a military dude that is friendly to their political point of view.....I think the USA had a overthrow FDR plot in the 1930s. A bunch of far right military and industrialists and politicians did not like the New Deal.....Major General Smedley Butler testified before an investigative committee regarding the plotters.

What else? Growing marijuana? It is legal in a few states. Growing heroine? Less common but oxycotin is a popular drug to consume in Springfield, Ohio....

What else? Prostitution, child porn, etc. That doesn't happen in the USA.

Human trafficking and child labor violations?

Not paying workers overtime? Benefits? Paying less than the minimum wage? No, I am afraid I have evidence that all happens in the USA as well. So what is it that is special about Latin American inferiority exactly Robert? That doesn't have an equal sin in the USA?

You tell me?
#15233755
Scamp wrote:US Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, having a rally for more food stamps for her poor constituents who are starving.
Image


Viola Davis my favorite actress describing her childhood without adequate food stamps and being hungry. Yes, those food stamps last the whole month. Not really.


#15233756
Tainari88 wrote:You are going to have to be specific with which country because each country is different. Which nation are you talking about Robert?


My list of caudillos, past and present, would include Fidel Castro (Cuba), Rafael Trujillo (Dominican Republic), Juan Perón (Argentina), Hugo Chávez (Venezuela), Manuel Noriega (Panama), Nicolas Maduro (Venezuela), Daniel Ortega (Nicaragua), and Jair Bolsonaro, the “Trump” of Brazil.
#15233764
Igor Antunov wrote:Yeah but you got them around the wrong way.

Image

Image

Not to mention 90% of US inventors are foreigners and migrants. Intrinsically and long term America has nothing. It's just a transient meme, it has no staying power. It won't exist in 1,000 years.

Us is still coasting along on British financial system it inherited, british technology it stole and german engineers it pilfered after ww2. Well all that shit has run out.

People buy American IT products and invest in American corporations because US companies and the US financial system and government is far more trustworthy, stable, reliable, than in India and China. The rule of law is far more just and reliable in the US also.

Would you put your money in an Indian bank account? Would you give a Chinese company money to invest? No thanks. People vote with their feet and their dollars.
#15233765
wat0n wrote:You claimed other countries would have been able to claim to be continuous constitutional democracies for 250 years, as the US has,

Wait, what? You're claiming a functional plutocracy where only male landowners could vote was a democracy??
:lol:
I don't know of any. Most of the countries where the US was involved in coups and the like don't fit that standard, mine included.

I see. So, it only counts when the USA forcibly overthrows an old democracy (of which there are conveniently none), not a young one....?

Somehow, I kinda figured it'd be something like that...
#15233768
Robert Urbanek wrote:My list of caudillos, past and present, would include Fidel Castro (Cuba), Rafael Trujillo (Dominican Republic), Juan Perón (Argentina), Hugo Chávez (Venezuela), Manuel Noriega (Panama), Nicolas Maduro (Venezuela), Daniel Ortega (Nicaragua), and Jair Bolsonaro, the “Trump” of Brazil.


Well unfortunately Robert Urbanek, Fidel Castro never really was officially an army or military dude who graduated from a military academy from Cuba. He became one by being a rebel with the 26 de julio attack on the Moncada Barracks my Robert man. The guy that he was attacking was Fulgencio Batista who was a dictator for sure and a brutal one, but he had the backing of the USA. Batista that is. They withdrew support for him because he became highly unpopular. Fidel Castro according to many reliable sources was persona non-grata with the Cuban Communist party. He later became a communist according to many sources due to Washington DC manipulations and it became necessary to deal with the Soviets. Fidel Castro Ruz was actually a lawyer who graduated from the University of Havana and was arrested and he defended himself with [La Historia me Absolvera} when he was arrested for sedition.

They did not kill him outright and sent him to jail in a famous prison in Cuba (I don't remember if it was La Isla de Pinos or La Isla de Juventud) but the island prison belonged to Cuba in an off island. He wrote that piece while he was in jail. He also blundered a lot in his early years in the fifties. He went to Mexico City and that is where he met Ernesto ¨Che¨ Guevara an Argentine doctor who used to work for a Leper colony in South America treating lepresy patients. That is an old disease. He had issues with the Roman Catholic nuns who ran the place. They would punish people for disobedience by sending them to bed without supper. Anyway, that is where those two met. They had zero military experience Robert. The doctor and the lawyer. No commando experience to speak of between them. So they needed some desperately needed military training and who did they seek it from? The leftist pro violent revolutionaries from two separate Latin American nations. One an Argentine (Che Guevara) and the other a Cuban (Fidel Castro). They got the military training from none other than a Spanish fascist from Spain's Blue Division from Francisco Franco's Spain. Who hated communists and socialists with a passion but agreed to train the two greenhorns on military tactics. The Escuadrón Azul was famous in WWII. They were the best of Franco's extreme Right pro Monarchy forces. A small clip on who the Blue Division was in Spanish from Spain history. Remember Spain had a bloody civil war in the 1930s and did not really participate in the Axis. The reason why he (Franco remained in power in Spain until the mid 1970s). Another story about that strongman. Since then Spain has had liberals and socialist Prime Ministers. Do you know any of this history at all Roberto? No, I don't think so.

I do. So if you are interested in the history of each of the Latin American caudillos you want to know more about and use as classic caudillo stereotypes I suggest you and I open a thread eh and we take each one, one by one. We analyze their family backgrounds, political leanings and how they became authoritarians that you feel are typical and usual for Latin America eh? I don't agree with authoritarians. But? If you want to make sweeping statements about Latino caudillo stereotypes we got to analyze where this iconic type of figure portrayed in Hollywood movies is based on eh?

Would that interest you yes or no? I only have till Saturday and I got to blast off to the states. Alright?

@Igor Antunov might be interested in these macho men who have dicks with energy. :lol: :lol:

Here is the blue division clip I promised you Roberto:






The Russians should hear the Spanish second video. It is very interesting the fight between the Spanish, the German and the Russians.

They were very disciplined soldiers and great strategists. The ex division azul man was a Spaniard who retired to Mexico City. And the two there got their first real military training there in Mexico. They bought a leaky boat and they invaded Cuba but they had been infiltrated by a Batista spy in Mexico and they were arrested and thrown in jail before being able to take off on their plan to invade and fight the dictatorship of Batista. The guy who sprung them from jail and let them go and do their thing? None other than the ex president of Mexico Lazaro Cardenas. He happened to be the Godfather of Fidel Castro when he was a baby and thought the cause was just. Lazaro Cardenas did not like Yankee intervention in either Guatemala's Arbenz government in 1954, where Che Guevara was working at a medical clinic and saw the bombs falling from the sky backed by Washington DC because they did not want any kind of Leftist elected government in Central America. This made Che an enemy of the US government. At least that is what is reported was an epiphany to go after the Yankee interferences. If you vote and vote for Arbenz? Because Guatemala wanted more rights for Mayan Indians in Guatemala...you then make sure that all that is destroyed? Then the enemy are the interferences.

How do all these type of men in Latin America become authoritarians and caudillos? That is really a very interesting question. But it requires real curiosity Roberto...are you willing to go and learn Latin American studies and the history of Latin America with me? Or you are not interested?

Let me know.
#15233783
Tainari88 wrote:Well unfortunately Robert Urbanek, Fidel Castro never really was officially an army or military dude who graduated from a military academy from Cuba. He became one by being a rebel with the 26 de julio attack on the Moncada Barracks my Robert man. The guy that he was attacking was Fulgencio Batista who was a dictator for sure and a brutal one, but he had the backing of the USA. Batista that is. They withdrew support for him because he became highly unpopular. Fidel Castro according to many reliable sources was persona non-grata with the Cuban Communist party. He later became a communist according to many sources due to Washington DC manipulations and it became necessary to deal with the Soviets. Fidel Castro Ruz was actually a lawyer who graduated from the University of Havana and was arrested and he defended himself with [La Historia me Absolvera} when he was arrested for sedition.

They did not kill him outright and sent him to jail in a famous prison in Cuba (I don't remember if it was La Isla de Pinos or La Isla de Juventud) but the island prison belonged to Cuba in an off island. He wrote that piece while he was in jail. He also blundered a lot in his early years in the fifties. He went to Mexico City and that is where he met Ernesto ¨Che¨ Guevara an Argentine doctor who used to work for a Leper colony in South America treating lepresy patients. That is an old disease. He had issues with the Roman Catholic nuns who ran the place. They would punish people for disobedience by sending them to bed without supper. Anyway, that is where those two met. They had zero military experience Robert. The doctor and the lawyer. No commando experience to speak of between them. So they needed some desperately needed military training and who did they seek it from? The leftist pro violent revolutionaries from two separate Latin American nations. One an Argentine (Che Guevara) and the other a Cuban (Fidel Castro). They got the military training from none other than a Spanish fascist from Spain's Blue Division from Francisco Franco's Spain. Who hated communists and socialists with a passion but agreed to train the two greenhorns on military tactics. The Escuadrón Azul was famous in WWII. They were the best of Franco's extreme Right pro Monarchy forces. A small clip on who the Blue Division was in Spanish from Spain history. Remember Spain had a bloody civil war in the 1930s and did not really participate in the Axis. The reason why he (Franco remained in power in Spain until the mid 1970s). Another story about that strongman. Since then Spain has had liberals and socialist Prime Ministers. Do you know any of this history at all Roberto? No, I don't think so.

I do. So if you are interested in the history of each of the Latin American caudillos you want to know more about and use as classic caudillo stereotypes I suggest you and I open a thread eh and we take each one, one by one. We analyze their family backgrounds, political leanings and how they became authoritarians that you feel are typical and usual for Latin America eh? I don't agree with authoritarians. But? If you want to make sweeping statements about Latino caudillo stereotypes we got to analyze where this iconic type of figure portrayed in Hollywood movies is based on eh?

Would that interest you yes or no? I only have till Saturday and I got to blast off to the states. Alright?

@Igor Antunov might be interested in these macho men who have dicks with energy. :lol: :lol:

Here is the blue division clip I promised you Roberto:






The Russians should hear the Spanish second video. It is very interesting the fight between the Spanish, the German and the Russians.

They were very disciplined soldiers and great strategists. The ex division azul man was a Spaniard who retired to Mexico City. And the two there got their first real military training there in Mexico. They bought a leaky boat and they invaded Cuba but they had been infiltrated by a Batista spy in Mexico and they were arrested and thrown in jail before being able to take off on their plan to invade and fight the dictatorship of Batista. The guy who sprung them from jail and let them go and do their thing? None other than the ex president of Mexico Lazaro Cardenas. He happened to be the Godfather of Fidel Castro when he was a baby and thought the cause was just. Lazaro Cardenas did not like Yankee intervention in either Guatemala's Arbenz government in 1954, where Che Guevara was working at a medical clinic and saw the bombs falling from the sky backed by Washington DC because they did not want any kind of Leftist elected government in Central America. This made Che an enemy of the US government. At least that is what is reported was an epiphany to go after the Yankee interferences. If you vote and vote for Arbenz? Because Guatemala wanted more rights for Mayan Indians in Guatemala...you then make sure that all that is destroyed? Then the enemy are the interferences.

How do all these type of men in Latin America become authoritarians and caudillos? That is really a very interesting question. But it requires real curiosity Roberto...are you willing to go and learn Latin American studies and the history of Latin America with me? Or you are not interested?

Let me know.


Thank you for your offer but I have a lot of other things on my plate.
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