[Politics_Observer]

So, I was having an interesting conversation with my stepson. He lives in the liberal state of Vermont. So, they are on this big kick in the Vermont city of Burlington, according to what he told me, of "defunding the police" because of racism. So, the Burlington Police Department, from what he told me, is having trouble recruiting police officers. I am not sure if their police powers have been curtailed. But now, crime has skyrocketed. Police are not responding to business owners needs. Business are getting robbed more often.

It's gotten so bad to the point that according to my stepson, people are taking the law into their hands and exacting revenge to deter criminals from targeting their business. So now they have these vigilante groups kind of going about taking the law into their own hands given that it seems there isn't much of a police presence and Burlington got on this "defund the police" kick.

So my question to people here, is this an acceptable solution, to defunding the police? If not, then how can police be allowed to do their jobs so that we have a society based on the rule of law without being accused of being racist? If you keep accusing the police of being racist, they might step back and stop doing their jobs. Then, we have this situation happening all over again to where we have vigilante groups running around and taking matters into their own hands. Things can get crazy.

How does this effect jobs and the economy of the local area?

[Truth To Power]

So, I was having an interesting conversation with my stepson. He lives in the liberal state of Vermont. So, they are on this big kick in the Vermont city of Burlington, according to what he told me, of "defunding the police" because of racism. So, the Burlington Police Department, from what he told me, is having trouble recruiting police officers. I am not sure if their police powers have been curtailed. But now, crime has skyrocketed. Police are not responding to business owners needs. Business are getting robbed more often.

It's gotten so bad to the point that according to my stepson, people are taking the law into their hands and exacting revenge to deter criminals from targeting their business. So now they have these vigilante groups kind of going about taking the law into their own hands given that it seems there isn't much of a police presence and Burlington got on this "defund the police" kick.

The notion that racial bias among police officers can usefully be addressed by defunding police forces is cretinous, and no sane person over the age of ten actually believes it.

[Politics_Observer]

@Truth To Power

Do people just want to live in chaos where there is no rule of law and just anything goes? Is this what people want? I am interested in hearing the point of view of others to see what they think.

[wat0n]

So, I was having an interesting conversation with my stepson. He lives in the liberal state of Vermont. So, they are on this big kick in the Vermont city of Burlington, according to what he told me, of "defunding the police" because of racism. So, the Burlington Police Department, from what he told me, is having trouble recruiting police officers. I am not sure if their police powers have been curtailed. But now, crime has skyrocketed. Police are not responding to business owners needs. Business are getting robbed more often.

It's gotten so bad to the point that according to my stepson, people are taking the law into their hands and exacting revenge to deter criminals from targeting their business. So now they have these vigilante groups kind of going about taking the law into their own hands given that it seems there isn't much of a police presence and Burlington got on this "defund the police" kick.

So my question to people here, is this an acceptable solution, to defunding the police? If not, then how can police be allowed to do their jobs so that we have a society based on the rule of law without being accused of being racist? If you keep accusing the police of being racist, they might step back and stop doing their jobs. Then, we have this situation happening all over again to where we have vigilante groups running around and taking matters into their own hands. Things can get crazy.

How does this effect jobs and the economy of the local area?

It hurts not just the economy but the quality of life of people who live there. This kind of thing was foreseeable and, indeed, warned about at the time. What people are doing over there is how community policing looks like when taken into its most literal meaning, and it is also known from past experience civilians (e.g. posses) can be far more trigger happy than trained officers.

It's not a coincidence that the African-American community of Minneapolis itself came out strongly against in the vote to do something similar to their city's PD.

The worst part is that the strongest advocates are probably those who will not need to deal with the consequences either.

PS: I found a news piece that deals with this with more detail. It's not that the PD had trouble recruiting, it's that the City Council decided to cut the force by 30%.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bu ... d-rcna8409

[Politics_Observer]

@wat0n

Outstanding article wat0n. And it's from liberal NBC news to boot. So, it seems what my stepson has been telling me has been accurate about the problems Burlington has faced with crime in the aftermath of this "Defund the Police" kick. The video was outstanding too.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

Outstanding article wat0n. And it's from liberal NBC news to boot. So, it seems what my stepson has been telling me has been accurate about the problems Burlington has faced with crime in the aftermath of this "Defund the Police" kick. The video was outstanding too.

Now, that article is from late 2021. Did the city reconsider its decision to slash the force?

According to the article, it takes a bit over a year to train a new cop. If so, then maybe things will improve this year - assuming the city did reconsider its approach.

[Politics_Observer]

@wat0n

I don't know. I don't think my stepson knows for sure either, given he is working most of the time and can't always keep up with the news.

[Politics_Observer]

@wat0n

Burlington is a good city. I like Burlington. I recognized Church Street, which I have walked on many times when I was there with my wife. My wife was born in Burlington. I also recognized the police department shown in the video and have driven by there many times.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

I don't know. I don't think my stepson knows for sure either, given he is working most of the time and can't always keep up with the news.

That's understandable and I don't blame him.

@wat0n

Burlington is a good city. I like Burlington. I recognized Church Street, which I have walked on many times when I was there with my wife. My wife was born in Burlington. I also recognized the police department shown in the video and have driven by there many times.

Honestly all the VT pictures I've seen suggest it's a gorgeous place to live in.

Going back to policing, the article suggests the city has indeed made a sincere effort and invested in improving its policing, which includes addressing the race-related complaints. So it sucks even more they're having problems simply because the council didn't do its research before deciding.

[Politics_Observer]

@wat0n

They just made a decision not based on solid research, but solely on political winds of the time. I am sure those who made that decision knew that too but just didn't care because for them, it was only about getting elected rather than looking out for the best interest of the city. People over-react, go to extremes, and then they make these rash decisions that turn out to be very bad decisions that come back to haunt them.

[Politics_Observer]

@wat0n

See, according to my stepson, business owners in Burlington have come together and formed their own groups to deter criminals that are outside the control of the city. This was in response to the fact that the police are not there like they used to be. Of course, I see dangers to businesses coming together to create their own vigilante groups to ensure the protection of their businesses and property. There is no effective government control over them, and they too can operate outside the law. Such vigilante groups can go beyond their intended purpose and become a threat to others and not just merely criminals.

[Fasces]

Citizen/community policing is a less authoritarian and more democratic alternative to traditional American policing, which has been militarized for the past fifty years. Vigilante action is not necessarily desirable, but these groups are constrained by the law in a way traditional policing currently is not. That is a good thing. These groups, in order to operate within the law, will likely lead to less abuse of people's rights than normal police and the normal police will more likely be enforcing this against them than they do against their brothers in blue.

This is more an indictment of US policing than a defense of Burlington security groups. The rise of private security is a visible sign of social degeneration, and in the long run anti-democratic as there is less public oversight.

I don't necessarily agree with "defunding the police" and this slogan is probably one born out of frustration. I can't take in good faith people who veto, out of hand, simple things like body cameras, police malpractice insurance, limits on qualified immunity, etc.

Unfortunately, I don't think meaningful change to policies g culture is possible in the US without addressing the gun issue. The militarization of the police is a direct response to the widespread proliferation of firearms.

[Tainari88]

So, I was having an interesting conversation with my stepson. He lives in the liberal state of Vermont. So, they are on this big kick in the Vermont city of Burlington, according to what he told me, of "defunding the police" because of racism. So, the Burlington Police Department, from what he told me, is having trouble recruiting police officers. I am not sure if their police powers have been curtailed. But now, crime has skyrocketed. Police are not responding to business owners needs. Business are getting robbed more often.

It's gotten so bad to the point that according to my stepson, people are taking the law into their hands and exacting revenge to deter criminals from targeting their business. So now they have these vigilante groups kind of going about taking the law into their own hands given that it seems there isn't much of a police presence and Burlington got on this "defund the police" kick.

So my question to people here, is this an acceptable solution, to defunding the police? If not, then how can police be allowed to do their jobs so that we have a society based on the rule of law without being accused of being racist? If you keep accusing the police of being racist, they might step back and stop doing their jobs. Then, we have this situation happening all over again to where we have vigilante groups running around and taking matters into their own hands. Things can get crazy.

How does this effect jobs and the economy of the local area?

This is about training and how police are trained. That also requires political will to accomplish. There are horrible cops in the world who are trained to kill even children (homeless kids who are swept away like trash after being shot to death in the streets of Brazilian cities and other nations where the cops are highly militarized and trained to kill the poorest of the poor and the mentally ill, etc.). Effective police training takes care of a lot of issues. Most of the cops who patrol a community should be from that community. Born and raised and who have deep ties. They should also be really good at communication skills, know how to judge situations well, and the best qualities in an effective cop is always interviewing, and creating an environment of consistency and safety and respectful communication and community ties.

Would you like to see some videos of cops being trained with bad values and others with really good values? Because that is what it boils down to.

For example, I had issues with the Denver Police Department. The local Merida, Yucatan cops here? Nicest cops I have ever encountered. They talk to you with respect, and they know how to handle and diffuse the situation really well. Interestingly they are trained partially based on Mayan and Spanish police techniques combined. It is interesting.

The cops that always were the worst in Mexico were the Federales. The Federales are like the FBI or its equivalent. The Feds from Mexico City and they are really really corrupt. And no one trusts them. They are on the take are known to be involved with the Drug Cartels and have had long ties with the neoliberal parties in Mexico. In fact, they even watch the news or what journalists write about them. I would probably be taking a chance writing this on the internet right now with them.

They are that bad with censoring any criticism. But the local state of Yucatan and the city cops of Merida are FANTASTIC. Another institution that is wonderful in Mexico in my opinion are the tourism cops. They speak a lot of languages and take care of lost tourists. Also the Auxilio vial. Which are traffic cops that do a lot of good samaritan stuff for people driving around. Fix a flat tire, bring gas in a can, battery jump, and if you have bad weather and are stuck and can't get home? They pick you up and take you home for free.

The other people you should never trust in authority positions in Mexico are customs people. Customs people are hardcore corrupt and often take your packages and most of your possessions unless you pay them off at the border if you bring some of your material goods with you from the USA.

[wat0n]

Citizen/community policing is a less authoritarian and more democratic alternative to traditional American policing, which has been militarized for the past fifty years. Vigilante action is not necessarily desirable, but these groups are constrained by the law in a way traditional policing currently is not. That is a good thing. These groups, in order to operate within the law, will likely lead to less abuse of people's rights than normal police and the normal police will more likely be enforcing this against them than they do against their brothers in blue.

Vigilantes are often trigger happy and they are rarely brought to justice. They won't "operate within the law" and are not trained to.

This is more an indictment of US policing than a defense of Burlington security groups. The rise of private security is a visible sign of social degeneration, and in the long run anti-democratic as there is less public oversight.

I don't necessarily agree with "defunding the police" and this slogan is probably one born out of frustration. I can't take in good faith people who veto, out of hand, simple things like body cameras, police malpractice insurance, limits on qualified immunity, etc.

At this point in time, who's exactly against bodycams? I recall cop unions were against them 5-10 years ago, but nowadays they seem to be a consensus policy. As it turns out, they can both end up getting cops in jail and exonerating them depending on the case.

Burlington, from what I can tell, has been a leading jurisdiction in progressive approaches to policing. Yet this time the city decided to cut the number of police officers without consulting with pretty much anyone, even though the idea has always been controversial among experts in the matter.

Unfortunately, I don't think meaningful change to policies g culture is possible in the US without addressing the gun issue. The militarization of the police is a direct response to the widespread proliferation of firearms.

Is it even possible to address the gun issue? Can the US, a country where there is more than 1 legal gun and also more than 1 illegal gun per person, rein this problem in?

I doubt so.

[Fasces]

Vigilantes are often trigger happy and they are rarely brought to justice. They won't "operate within the law" and are not trained to.

Police officers are often trigger happy and they are rarely brought to justice. They won't "operate within the law" and are not trained to.

At this point in time, who's exactly against bodycams? I recall cop unions were against them 5-10 years ago, but nowadays they seem to be a consensus policy. As it turns out, they can both end up getting cops in jail and exonerating them depending on the case.

This is a huge pet peeve of mine when it comes to talking with you. Few people are against body cams, sure - but based on your response, you'd think that's all I mentioned.

Is it even possible to address the gun issue? Can the US, a country where there is more than 1 legal gun and also more than 1 illegal gun per person, rein this problem in?

I doubt so.

Same.

[Tainari88]

First video about police training in Utah. It is typically Western and the USA trains its officers of shoot to kill.

Someone is safe now. She says at the end of the day you are meant to help people.

Totally different emphasis.

A day in the life of a cop in the UK.

Cops in the USA have to contend with guns everywhere that are easily accessible, and also mental illness is not being treated consistently and people dealing with crises without any actual services for those people. They often have to arrest people for keeping them from aggressive behavior due to a lack of mental health facilities being able to take them in.

The American USA-based cop usually has the problem of responding to many more calls than cops in England for example. They also have the issue of the lack of firearm controls in the country. They also have to deal with the BAD training philosophy of shoot first. because you might die mentality. It leads to cops even arresting unarmed children.

It is really bad.

[wat0n]

Police officers are often trigger happy and they are rarely brought to justice. They won't "operate within the law" and are not trained to.

I beg to differ here. In the rare historical cases of police strikes in the US, the Posses were quite fast to shoot when the foreseeable lawlessness ensued.

In other cases of breakdown of law and order, most of the vigilantes I've seen have also been able to simply walk free. This is one case where government provision is clearly the best option.

This is a huge pet peeve of mine when it comes to talking with you. Few people are against body cams, sure - but based on your response, you'd think that's all I mentioned.

Simple, I don't disagree with you on the other two, which are indeed more controversial. I don't really disagree with ending qualified immunity, but I suspect that if cops are compelled to take liability insurance what will actually happen is that the incidence will fall on their employers.

I also don't think it should somehow have anything to do with the merits of defunding the police. This is most definitely a task best left to experts, and would depend a lot on what would be funded instead.

There are experts saying the police shouldn't handle some tasks so it could be defunded, while others argue funding should be increased because the US actually isn't an outlier in terms of cops per 100k inhabitants among developed countries (even though it's an outlier for violent crime) and also because it seems American cops get less hours of training than in other developed countries.

[Truth To Power]

@Truth To Power

Do people just want to live in chaos where there is no rule of law and just anything goes? Is this what people want? I am interested in hearing the point of view of others to see what they think.

I suspect that those who advocate defunding -- i.e., abolishing -- police forces actually want a breakdown in social order that will lead to an extreme authoritarian outcome -- with them in charge.

[Politics_Observer]

@Tainari88

Most of the cops who patrol a community should be from that community. Born and raised and who have deep ties.

I am not so sure if that's a good idea. What if you have to lock somebody up? They have a criminal record, you go shopping at the local Walmart, and then you see this clown at the local Walmart because you live in the same neighborhood as him. This doesn't sound like it could end very well. Not only that, but criminals can more easily discover where you live.

Personally, I think if I were a cop, I would rather police a town where I do not actually live, and I am not from. That way when I go home, I am not going home to a place where I have had to lock people up. Moreover, you would be surprised at how well these sorts of cops really know the neighborhood. I think they know the neighborhood much better than the people who have lived in those neighbors all their lives, even if those cops never lived in those neighborhoods.

The reason is because that's all those cops do is patrol that neighborhood and answer calls related to that neighborhood all day long to all parts of that neighborhood. The average citizen doesn't patrol their neighborhood near as thoroughly as police officers do and in actuality, the cops know the neighborhood much better than those who actually live there all their lives.

[wat0n]

@Tainari88



I am not so sure if that's a good idea. What if you have to lock somebody up? They have a criminal record, you go shopping at the local Walmart, and then you see this clown at the local Walmart because you live in the same neighborhood as him. This doesn't sound like it could end very well. Not only that, but criminals can more easily discover where you live.

This is reasonable.

[...]Moreover, you would be surprised at how well these sorts of cops really know the neighborhood. I think they know the neighborhood much better than the people who have lived in those neighbors all their lives, even if those cops never lived in those neighborhoods.

But this isn't. How exactly does it work?