[Puffer Fish]

This is from an official government department study.
And it only counts those who snuck through the border illegally and are literal illegal aliens in every sense of the word. It does NOT count all the huge numbers of migrants that the Biden Administration has been automatically admitting to the country under the guise of being "asylum seekers".

Indeed, I would suspect that if half the jobs have gone to illegal immigrants, it's then almost a certainty that the other half must have gone to the other migrants.

The Biden Administration and Democrat supporting media touts that the economy has been "creating jobs", but it's questionable whether any of these total new jobs have gone to Americans.


Around half of U.S. jobs gains may be from undocumented immigrants

" Around half of U.S. jobs growth this year has likely come from undocumented immigrants, which may suggest that the labor market is not as strong as thought, according to analysts at Standard Chartered Bank NY Branch.

Steve Englander, Head, Global G10 FX Research and North America Macro Strategy, and Dan Pan, Economist, Americas, estimate that undocumented workers account for 109,000 jobs out of the average 231,000 monthly increase in jobs so far this year.

That is based on an examination of detailed data from U.S. Customs and Border Protection and U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services.

They also note that they may be underestimating this figure since undocumented immigrants often have limited access to benefits, so they may be heavily motivated to find employment.

The analysts define undocumented immigrants as "those who entered the US through non-traditional immigration pathways, such as asylum seekers, parolees and refugees" and are counting those that have an Employment Authorization Document.

Based on this evaluation, the U.S. economy may not be as strong as thought, and that may have consequences for the U.S. Federal Reserve.

Standard Chartered estimates that nonfarm payroll (NFP) gains may be around 125,000 per month excluding these workers. "Such a pace is not recession but is hardly boom time and represents a moderate underlying pace of labour demand," the analysts said.​ "

Around half of U.S. jobs gains may be from undocumented immigrants, Reuters, Karen Brettell, May 31, 2024

As of May 2023, there were more than 1.3 million asylum applications awaiting processing (source here), if that some idea how many migrants have been admitted into the country who are not counted as "illegal aliens" for official purposes.

In February 2024, the foreign-born population in the United States hit a new high of 51.4 million, representing 15.5 percent of the U.S. population. (source here)

related thread: All the job growth since 2019 has gone to immigrants, less educated men hurting (in Economics section, Feb 14, 2024)


Maybe it's no wonder Americans aren't feeling a better economy.

[Potemkin]

If the illegal immigrants didn’t take these jobs, then who else would have done so? Native-born Americans clearly refuse to do those sorts of jobs. Or are you trying to claim that native-born Americans can’t compete with some guy who’s just swum across the Rio Grande?

[Puffer Fish]

If the illegal immigrants didn’t take these jobs, then who else would have done so? Native-born Americans clearly refuse to do those sorts of jobs.

That's a myth, although it does have an element of truth in it.

The thing is, Americans USED to do these jobs. But once immigrants start filling jobs in a certain type of field, there's a strong tendency for the working conditions to become worse, and the wages to go down. In other words, those jobs are not the same as they were before.

In general, desperate immigrants coming from more impoverished countries are willing to work harder, put up with worse working conditions, and do it for much less money.

This ends up having a displacement effect, and turns more and more types of jobs into "jobs Americans don't want to do".

If you look in a few less populated corners of America, that have much lower immigrant levels, there are still white (or black) Americans doing these jobs.

I think it goes beyond just wages and working conditions though. The entire economic structure changes. Those workers began losing more of their independence, and high immigration levels lead to a consolidation by big corporations, an issue I have touched on in other threads.
For example, maybe a small family business gets replaced by Walmart, who is hiring employees for low wages and making them work non-stop because there are more desperate workers, allowing this new corporate model to work.

[Potemkin]

That's a myth, although it does have an element of truth in it.

The thing is, Americans USED to do these jobs. But once immigrants start filling jobs in a certain type of field, there's a strong tendency for the working conditions to become worse, and the wages to go down. In other words, those jobs are not the same as they were before.

In general, desperate immigrants coming from more impoverished countries are willing to work harder, put up with worse working conditions, and do it for much less money.

This ends up having a displacement effect, and turns more and more types of jobs into "jobs Americans don't want to do".

If you look in a few less populated corners of America, that have much lower immigrant levels, there are still white (or black) Americans doing these jobs.

I think it goes beyond just wages and working conditions though. The entire economic structure changes. Those workers began losing more of their independence, and high immigration levels lead to a consolidation by big corporations, an issue I have touched on in other threads.
For example, maybe a small family business gets replaced by Walmart, who is hiring employees for low wages and making them work non-stop because there are more desperate workers, allowing this new corporate model to work.

In other words, native-born Americans can’t compete with some guy who’s just swum across the Rio Grande.

And everything you’ve just described is how capitalism is meant to work, @Puffer Fish. There is a free market in labour power as well as every other commodity. Workers compete with each other for jobs, driving the costs down for businesses. Let freedom ring!

[Unthinking Majority]

If the illegal immigrants didn’t take these jobs, then who else would have done so? Native-born Americans clearly refuse to do those sorts of jobs.

Legal immigrants? Like latin american immigrants or temporary seasonal workers the gov accepts or can accept for labour such as the kind the illegal migrants do?

But these numbers are seemingly out of whack based on the definition they're using for "undocumented migrants", which apparently includes documented migrants, strangely. From the OP article:

The analysts define undocumented immigrants as "those who entered the US through non-traditional immigration pathways, such as asylum seekers, parolees and refugees" and are counting those that have an Employment Authorization Document.

[Potemkin]

Legal immigrants? Like latin american immigrants or temporary seasonal workers the gov accepts or can accept for labour such as the kind the illegal migrants do?

But these numbers are seemingly out of whack based on the definition they're using for "undocumented migrants", which apparently includes documented migrants, strangely. From the OP article:

Don’t you believe there should be a free market in labour power, @Unthinking Majority? Why do you support government intervention to restrict the free movement of workers? Why do you love big government so much?

[FiveofSwords]

In other words, native-born Americans can’t compete with some guy who’s just swum across the Rio Grande.

And everything you’ve just described is how capitalism is meant to work, @Puffer Fish. There is a free market in labour power as well as every other commodity. Workers compete with each other for jobs, driving the costs down for businesses. Let freedom ring!

White Americans certainly cannot compete with any other race because there is no institution that protects the interest of white Americans and all thr incentives for business is to employ anyone who isn't white.

[Unthinking Majority]

Don’t you believe there should be a free market in labour power, @Unthinking Majority? Why do you support government intervention to restrict the free movement of workers? Why do you love big government so much?

No i don't believe in laissez-faire capitalism economics because the evidence shows it doesn't
work, easy examples being the Great Depression and 2008 US mortgage crisis. Government regulation is sometimes necessary to achieve the best outcomes for society. Minimum wage and labour laws being examples.

Every country is sovereign and therefore has a right to control its borders and immigration to achieve its national interests and those of its citizens. If the US needs labour in some sector they can import those workers if they choose.

Would i.e. Mexico and Mexicans choose to let in tens of millions of Americans or any other immigrants from any other country if it wasn't in the best interests of their economy or workers? No they absolutely wouldn't, and neither would any other country in Latin America, Asia, or Africa. So why should the US or any other western country afford them the luxury of open borders that they themselves wouldn't give anyone else?

[Rancid]

What does this say about the people hiring the illegal immigrants?

[FiveofSwords]

What does this say about the people hiring the illegal immigrants?

It says they are just looking out for themselves. Which to be fair is all you can do in a society like this one.

[FiveofSwords]

No i don't believe in laissez-faire capitalism economics because the evidence shows it doesn't
work, easy examples being the Great Depression and 2008 US mortgage crisis. Government regulation is sometimes necessary to achieve the best outcomes for society. Minimum wage and labour laws being examples.

Every country is sovereign and therefore has a right to control its borders and immigration to achieve its national interests and those of its citizens. If the US needs labour in some sector they can import those workers if they choose.

Would i.e. Mexico and Mexicans choose to let in tens of millions of Americans or any other immigrants from any other country if it wasn't in the best interests of their economy or workers? No they absolutely wouldn't, and neither would any other country in Latin America, Asia, or Africa. So why should the US or any other western country afford them the luxury of open borders that they themselves wouldn't give anyone else?

This attitude leads directly to fascism by logical necessity.

[Potemkin]

This attitude leads directly to fascism by logical necessity.

Or communism.

[FiveofSwords]

Or communism.

No, because communism does not respect national sovereignty. All sovereignty is nonsense according to marx...there is only class warfare and literally nothing else exists.

[Potemkin]

No, because communism does not respect national sovereignty. All sovereignty is nonsense according to marx...there is only class warfare and literally nothing else exists.

National sovereignty serves the interests of the class enemy. They control the borders, and pit the working class of different nations against each other. For example, back in the 19th century, the English capitalists would import destitute Irish labourers if they thought the native English workers were starting to demand too much money. And even today, why do you think the American government cannot ‘solve’ the issue of illegal immigration? Because they don’t want to solve it, that’s why. It’s just too good for them. They can use it to drive down wages, which is good for business and therefore good for them. The only way to solve this is to overthrow the system of exploitation itself. And once the working class of all nations no longer have conflicting interests, why would they need national borders? What for?

[MistyTiger]

I cannot say that I'm surprised. The labor market has been weak for years. People in general hate working, especially hating to work hard. Immigrants usually are educated that they must work hard to be successful so they have this work hard mindset in place when they immigrate to the US. My immigrant parents raised me to work hard so I always work hard (and am trying not to become a major workaholic, may be hopeless. I was checking work email last night).

[RealPolitic]

@Potemkin

The only way to solve this is to overthrow the system of exploitation itself. And once the working class of all nations no longer have conflicting interests, why would they need national borders? What for?

That's very unrealistic and overly idealistic. Groups of people will also form states because they share a common culture, in many cases a common language, and/or common values. Such groups also have a need to have laws to protect them from each other and common defense to protect them from other states who would seek to occupy, enslave them and steal their resources. Communists assume that self interest is not inherit in human nature. But the reality is unfortunately quite different. Part of human nature IS self interest.

You don't have to be a capitalist to desire to steal resources from others. Self interest is just a human trait. Communist states have invaded other countries. Why? Well, the people who have the power in those communist states are human too who are also self interested. And this self interested aspect of human nature manifests itself into national state interests regarding foreign policy.

[FiveofSwords]

National sovereignty serves the interests of the class enemy. They control the borders, and pit the working class of different nations against each other. For example, back in the 19th century, the English capitalists would import destitute Irish labourers if they thought the native English workers were starting to demand too much money. And even today, why do you think the American government cannot ‘solve’ the issue of illegal immigration? Because they don’t want to solve it, that’s why. It’s just too good for them. They can use it to drive down wages, which is good for business and therefore good for them. The only way to solve this is to overthrow the system of exploitation itself. And once the working class of all nations no longer have conflicting interests, why would they need national borders? What for?

They don't want to solve immigration because it is helping to genocide white people. That is their primary goal. The fact capitalists also benefit is just a sort of added bonus. If all they wanted was money then they wouldn't be focusing exclusively on destroying white countries in this way.

Anyway, I guess you are just learning why fascists never supported capitalism, lol. Of course bro...neither communism nor capitalism support national boundaries. Only fascism does.

[Puffer Fish]

I notice that those on the Left continue to blame "capitalism", all the while refusing to look at the elephant in the room, immigration.


some other threads:
Nearly half of U.S. women under 45 are childless
Younger generation moving to rural regions because they cannot afford housing

[Potemkin]

I notice that those on the Left continue to blame "capitalism", all the while refusing to look at the elephant in the room, immigration.


some other threads:
Nearly half of U.S. women under 45 are childless
Younger generation moving to rural regions because they cannot afford housing

Immigration is part of capitalism, @Puffer Fish. It is just the free movement of labour power. It is the invisible hand of the free market adjusting the supply and demand of labour-power to reach an ‘optimal’ equilibrium. Why separate out the free movement of labour power from the free movement of other goods and services?

[Tainari88]

Immigration is part of capitalism, @Puffer Fish. It is just the free movement of labour power. It is the invisible hand of the free market adjusting the supply and demand of labour-power to reach an ‘optimal’ equilibrium. Why separate out the free movement of labour power from the free movement of other goods and services?

What does the invisible hand wind up doing I wonder? Invisibly making sure no one makes enough money in an invisible elitist way?