Greeks worthy of Greece? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in Europe's nation states, the E.U. & Russia.

Moderator: PoFo Europe Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum, so please post in English only.
#15093074
The Hellenic Presidential Parliamentary Republic , is a state roughly the size of Florida, with a population of around 10 million (almost all Greek, almost all orthodox Christians).
Today Greece is just a typical balkan state, developed yes, but with no serious industries, political figures, culture and economy. Practically a protectorate of the west (more particularly Germany).

Does that mean that Greece is a failed state?Or that Greeks aren't a competent people? Or that Greece is just another one of the many small states that are being puppeted by the great powers? Are they just a disgrace of their ancestors?

Well the answer is yes, and no.
If someone value Greece from the same perspective that would value any other normal state in the world, then the answer to all is yes.
But that wouldn't be right nor a reality because to value Greece you have to take in consideration what it means to be Greek? What is Greece? How was it created? And what is Her background ?



To answer these words we have to travel back, no not the ancient Greece, not so back. But medieval Greece. Also known as Byzantium, the Eastern Roman empire technically, theoretically and practically this state became a legitimate Greek state.
Official language was Greek, more than 70%of its population spoke any kind of the many Greek dialects and all the Emperors were Greek.
This Great Empire, probably the greatest of all empires since it lasted for more than 1000 years(of which at least 650 of them they had the world's super power status) (by the way that's something that inspired Mr. Hitler later on), at one point collapsed and got whipped off the face of the earth, something that has happened and will keep happening for every empire.
And after a most valiant and heroic last stand in Constantinople the Greek state was utterly demolished (where an army of
160, 000 ottomans with the most advanced weaponry of the time besieged the 4,000 strong underequipped and technologically army of Greeks and genoese mercenaries. Although that the battle was won at a very high cost for the aggressors and at one point Mehmed almost untied the besiege and gave up, through continuous help from Greek traitors they would ultimately win and enter the City of world's desire ).


The conditions of their collapse were very similar to those of the western roman empire, a constant flood of barbarians and millions of hostile populations which ultimately cracked the state. Under those circumstances, the most expected for the native populations would either be massacred or forced to change religion or ethnicity in order to survive.
That way Romans, Sumerians, Ancient Egyptians and many others have vanished from the face of the earth, simply ceased to exist .
But, although Greeks for hundreds of s years they were subdued to Slavic, Turkish and Arabian occupation they still kept their identity and culture alive. Not only that, but also while in ottoman occupation Greeks would dominate many of the imperial higher ranks and posts, dominate the Mediterranean and black sea trade and also culturally "conquer" and save the other Christian nations under ottoman rule, with the Patriarchy. That way many slavs still had a church to whom they could rely on and didn't turn to Muslim, also that way Bulgarian and Serbian national identities stayed alive.
So although that were a fallen people's, massacred and forced to violent mass religious conversions, not only survived but thrived.
That way in 1821 all these led to the Greek Revolution with the purpose of reserructing the Hellenic Country and gain their freedom once again . The Great Powers would support this revolution, but in very little amounts and in short periods, because although they want a Greek protectorate in Mediterranean (British, Russian, French interests), first of all this revolution wanted a democracy to be installed (big nono for a world ruled by autocracies) and also they didn't want the Ottoman empire to be crippled much ( great and surprising evidences of this I can show if someone wants to ask), for economic reasons (Britain, France ) and political reasons (Russia).
The revolution had greater success than it was meant to be,great powers only wanted the new Greece to own only Athens, Euboia and arta, but Greeks managed to liberate all of these but also all of the peloponnese. Thus, in order to not give the revolution more momentum great powers stopped aiding for some years.
Underarmed and less in numbers Greek militias managed to bring the "Great" Ottoman Empire into a cruel costly, resources vacuum war.
At the end the Greeks made it and cracked the empire (with the help of the allies in battle of navarino) and in 1831 Greeks gained a state.
Honestly reports of many British Russian French and prussian officers and politicians at that time, prove that the initial intention of the Great powers was not to create a state, but a small "colony", the Greeks surprised everyone with their achievements both diplomatic and military.

JUST 100 years later of the birth of new Greek state: Greek banks were all over Eastern Mediterranean and Middle East. A couple of Greek oil companies were about to open business in Arabia and Greece had almost liberated all of Greek habitated lands and really looked like a state similar to Byzantium was going to become a reality.

It took the betrayal and cooperation from ALL the foreign powers (Italy, Germany, France, UK, USSR) to make the turks strong enough and destroy the Greeks.
France UK and Italy literally GIFTED the regions they had occupied in anatolia and signed trade and arms deals with the Turks. Also French and German (mostly German) officers were sent at Anatolia and trained the Turkish army. Very famously one of them also advised Turkish government that only if they "CLEANSE" Greek population on Anatolia they could become a proper state...
Also the Soviets sent thousands of arms to Turkey

And with all these buffs and helps from West and East , in 1921 turkey barely stopped Greeks from entering their capital (Ankara, which ironically was founded and inhabited by Greeks for over 2150 years ) and then the" Minor Asian Disaster "followed, leading to the complete massacre and decapitation of Greek populations in anatolia and Greek economy and oil companies. Getting Greeks out of the" middle eastern game" once and for all.


At that point Greece had been defeated totally in every way possibly. Economy was completely demolish, almost non existant. The army completely dishonoured and the general moral of every Greeks was lower than ever,and that also shows off in the Greek songs and poems of that era.
In the post - great war era (around 18 years for Greece) Greece managed to getting small steps towards recoverring. Metaxas's reforms really were a great step towards that goal.
And suddenly, one day, while Greeks still have greatly the wounds from the Disaster , in the morning of October 28th, the Italian embassy asked for Greece to basically turn into an Italian colony . Once again, the Army was very underequipped, loads of shortages, still ahve same guns from ww1, no tanks, almost non existant airforce. The Minister of course new thst very well, thus the logical action would be to agree on the terms, they weren't ready for such war (or war at all).
Towards the surprise of every major power in the world, Greece said NO, and not only they said no, but they DESTROYED the Italian campaign and begin a counterattack into Italian occupied Albania.
Heroic and valiant actions once again save Greece. But although they managed to completely own the Italians ONLY BY THEIR SINGLE HAND, the Germans and Bulgarians invaded from the North.
Greek army was simply not large enough to cover all of the front and was surprised attacked thus Greece was conquered by Germany in 2 and a half months.
All of Greece? Well not exactly, Fortress roupell and create managed to hold on for more time, diverting axis troops and holding them off busy.That gave enough time to Russians and British to prepare their troops in Ukraine and Africa.

Greece fallen, goverment fled , army moved and fights in el Alamein and navy is the Indian ocean.
Is that the end of the Greek fight in Greece? No. Greece had the second most numerous and active resistance in all of Nazi occupied Europe (first were the jugoslavs) numbering more than 110,000 fighters(Greek population at that time was 4.6 millions, do the math to see how much percentage is that :) ) .
The destructions and harasses Greeks did (aided by NCO and British commandos), caused great supply shortage and supply issues to Romells campaign in Northern Africa. Not to mention the thousands of Greek citizens that fled to Egypt to join the army on helping the allies.

Greek Peoples today aren't recognised and often underestimated, but at that time the leaders of every allied major power, also Hitler, recognised the struggle the Greeks did. Here are some of their quotes.

Stalin :“[We] thank the Greek People, whose resistance decided WWII … You fought unarmed and won, small against big … You gave us time to defend ourselves.”

Hitler :"For the sake of historical truth I must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death."

Wilhelm Keitel
(German Chief Commander) :“The unbelievable strong resistance of the Greeks delayed by two or more vital months the German attack against Russia; if we did not have this long delay, the outcome of the war would have been different.”

Churchill :"Hence, we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks.”

Also said,

“If there had not been the virtue and courage of the Greeks, we do not know which the outcome of World War II would have been.”


F. J. R. :" When the entire world had lost all hope, the Greek people dared to question the invincibility of the German monster raising against it the proud spirit of freedom.”


So dear reader, you who dare to call Greeks unworthy of their ancestors, you who call us Greeks lazy and incapable, you who call us cowards. You dear foreigner Politician, you who think you can force us into your will, you think you can bully us or enslave us. Read our achievements and our deeds, most importantly read what our enemies and allies have said about us , then think of doing shit with us again. Great men of opposite ideologies, different cultures and world theories all agree on one thing. If you want to mess with Greece .... just don't.
No matter how many tanks, how many nukes, how advanced weapons or how many you are, it really doesn't matter.
The reason is that Greece isn't a nation like every other country. We aren't just another small puppet state. Since the start of history, we have our own culture, our own rules, our own ideology, our own religion, our own language. We are neither westerners, neither Eastern, we are GREEKS.
Thus all of you European, American, Asian and Middle Eastern lads you have to put well into your mind we aren't similar to any of you, we are a unique civilisation since your ancestors literally were at a neanderthal kind of society. We were there then, we are here now, we will be there for long after the memory of all of you is forgotten.
Greece is now relatively weak and contained. But don't fool yourselves, we will rise again, we have been through this kind of phase many times again in the past, before westerners and Russians even became Christians, we had already ruled the world for many centuries and already had 5 Great Empires. What makes you think we won't come back into the big game again? We've been doing this for literally 4000 years.

The only reason Greece never dies, is because unlike Germany, Russia, Turkey, Britain etc, Greece isn't a state, not something on this world, Greece is in the soul and minds of people Greece an idea, a feeling, a notion. And you can kill or prison material, but you can never touch their hearts nor minds.
And please remmeber, Greeks aren't the ones who are born by Greek father and mother, Greeks are only the people who would die for Greece, people who make sacrifices for Greece,for that idea, for liberty, humanism and honour . That's why I often say, that only when Greece gets Greek politicians they will see true progress.
And for a state existing 200 years, under extreme conditions, Greece is actually doing way better than Her neighbours in the region honestly...





Thank you very much for reading until the end, love to every human from
Greece, Athens :)


P.S. The moment you people realise that Greeks exist longer, in more places and own more financially than Jews.... Hitler targeted the wrong ones Haha
#15093082
Hellas me ponas wrote:but with no serious industries, political figures, culture and economy.


I would seriously challenge the "no culture" bit. I consider modern Greek culture of today a cultural superpower considering its size and her language barriers. Greek music is exported in all of its neighbours, Turkey, Balkans, Middle-East, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon, Syria, etcetera. The Greek language is being taught across the Balkans and like in the past all our neighbours aspire to learn Greek and live in Greece, just like Britons aspire to live in New York and just like Eastern Europeans aspire to live in London. Greece has a huge cultural pull considering her size and the speech and script impediment. English is a language everybody speaks, yet people still choose to learn Greek as second language in the Balkans. Greek companies built the country of Saudi from the ground up. Basil Zaharoff, the most powerful and richest man in the world(also a Bond caricature), was followed by Onassis and they both established the city of Monte-Carlo as their own personal playground. Egypt was totally owned by Greeks until 1955 when Nasser nationalised their properties. They owned the majority of the banks, the tobacco industry and most of her ports. Onassis took the US President's widow for his wife. Odessa was also totally owned by Greeks until the commie revolution there. And when I say totally I mean it quite literally in her case without exaggeration.
Greek shipping still controls 1/4 of total global trade as we speak.

The Greek religion, Greek Orthodoxy controls the Christian Holy Lands, owns the land the Israeli parliament is built upon, she is/was? the second largest land & property owner in Israel after Israel itself until Israel started ripping that property away from her in the past 10 or so years. To be fair, Jewish property followed a similar pattern in Greece but to our defence that was mainly by the Germans and at a different time rather in the year 2007 onwards.

The Greek religion itself is the spiritual centre of all christianity and the spiritual leadership of almost a billion christians.

Greece has got a lot of things to be proud of.

She just needs a bit more marketing in this regard and for Greeks to be proud and propagate these things.
#15093191
RE: GREEKS WORTHY OF GREECE?


Not much.

As an external and Turkish observer, it seems to me that the most fundamental problem of Greece is the horrendous mismatch between her means and ends.

Her means are poor. Her ends are astronomically high.

And this mismatch causes lots of trouble, failure as well as disappointment.

If Greeks find a way to reduce the gap between these two, there is no doubt they can build a country reminiscent of ancient Greece. Hence, they will be truly worthy of Greece.
#15093666
Ignoring the past means that you are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

Why wouldn't you look back on Greece's rich and wonderous history?

Turkish criticism? That can't possibly be biased, can it? :lol:

At least Greece is still a Democracy.
#15093768
Well Greece has tried to do it many times and still tries to, but its the Turkish and Albanian goverments who persist on having an aggressive stance against Greece. Turkey in clod blood is claiming that Greece should be under their control and Albanians think that half of western Greece is legit Albanian land. Albanian goverment treats the Greek minority worse than the gypsies and turks keep on making provocative actions and statements every single day. In order to move on we need both sides to be able to make conssensions, otherwise it won't be a cooperation, it will be a surrender. And if there is one think Greeks never do that surrendering.

On the other hand look at our relations with other nations who used to be our enemies. Bulgarians and Greeks participated in a very long, cruel and bloody struggle over Macedonia. Nowadays we both have moved on and we cooperate in many sectors. Egyptians levelled Peloponnese during our war of independence, nowadays we are considered allies. Italians invaded us with no real casus belli and we had a great and bloody fight with them during ww2, same for Germans. Nowadays grekogerman and grecoitalian relations are at their peak.
So you see its not greece's problem, its not us who can't move over the past, it's turks and Albanians who keep this idiotic stance against Greece, what do you expect us to do? Not only we aren't provocative, but moreover we are doing everything we can to ease the tension. Turkish warships and jet fighters play very dangerous games in our national airspace and territorial waters, in any other country of the world they would have been sunk or shot down. But exactly because we want to move on and have good relations we let turks get away with it every time.

@Wellsy That was a short post? :eek:

I think the answer should be yes. I trust there i[…]

It's impossible to get a job

I think a lot of employers might be impressed by t[…]

Election 2020

Some news outlets already claimed that it is Russ[…]