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#15103384
If Putin can stay in government it would be best for Russia. They cannot have another uprising, it would set them back another 30 years. Putin and United Russia are the only suitable leaders for the country.

Who is the opposition in Russia? There are the establishment opposition consisting of the the Communist Party headed by Zyuganov and LDPR headed by Zhirinovsky. Then there are the anti-establishment forces, most notably Navalny and even the far right. Are these better options? Only Russians can make such a choice. There are also newly emerging far left forces outside the establishment Communist Party of Zyuganov.

It looks as though Putin's biggest challenge is the economy. Economic stagnation was arguably the main cause for the collapse of the USSR. If living standards do not rise to meet the Russian people's expectations there could be an increase in support for the opposition.

Putin staying in as long as possible is best because it provides stability. Until a young leader can be groomed for leadership to succeed him it is best that he stays in. The leader must be young because the succession of old leaders was another factor that led to the fall of the USSR. Putin was also young when he took office.
#15103468
@Political Interest, you have an idealist view of things. It never works like that. The corruption of the system Putin will condemn the country. Even a period of instability would be better than that. The increasing cost of the military, the cost of the foreign escapades, dwindling income from fossil fuels and most of all the never ending corruption will condemn Putin and his regime. He's on the wrong side of history. The time to bow out with grace has passed.
#15103470
Putin weakens Russia in terms of economy, democracy and human rights.

Russia has a large muslim population but yet they have no voice in government. Representation of muslims is an issue which should be addressed.
#15103475
Putin weakens Russia in terms of economy, democracy and human rights.


Like a Turk cares about any of these things, you're merely repeating tired old Western liberal shibboleths in order to illicit a knee jerk liberal reaction.

Russia has a large muslim population but yet they have no voice in government. Representation of muslims is an issue which should be addressed.


Muslims only want ''representation''.... No, what you would want is as everywhere else, conquest and subjection.
#15103481
annatar1914 wrote:Like a Turk cares about any of these things, you're merely repeating tired old Western liberal shibboleths in order to illicit a knee jerk liberal reaction.

I just tried. :D

I know that feeling. We hear some criticisms from the West. They are not consecutive, but hostile.



annatar1914 wrote: Muslims only want ''representation''.... No, what you would want is as everywhere else, conquest and subjection.

No. Tatars had become Slavic and more Russian looking over a couple of century.

You may have heard "Russian prostitutes" phenomena. These women actually are not Russian. They are mostly poor muslim Tatar girls forced to prostitution. They must be living in very severe conditions in Russia.
#15103485
Atlantis wrote:@Political Interest, you have an idealist view of things. It never works like that. The corruption of the system Putin will condemn the country. Even a period of instability would be better than that. The increasing cost of the military, the cost of the foreign escapades, dwindling income from fossil fuels and most of all the never ending corruption will condemn Putin and his regime. He's on the wrong side of history. The time to bow out with grace has passed.


It's hardly idealist. Who could replace Putin?

Navalny and Sobchak would be better? It is known that Navalny has contact with the Russian far right.
#15103486
I just tried. :D


Yes I know, it works on some but not on such as myself. ;)

I know that feeling. We hear some criticisms from the West. They are not consecutive, but hostile.


There are presently two ''Wests'' alongside each other, neither of us would want one of them for sure.




No. Tatars had become Slavic and more Russian looking over a couple of century.

You may have heard "Russian prostitutes" phenomena. These women actually are not Russian. They are mostly poor muslim Tatar girls forced to prostitution. They must be living in very severe conditions in Russia.


I have known some Tatars, good people in my experience so I can't and won't make a judgement.
#15103582
Istanbuller wrote:Erodgan weakens Turkey in terms of economy, democracy and human rights.

Turkey has a large Kurdish population but yet they have no voice in government. Representation of Kurds is an issue which should be addressed.


Fixed.
#15103605
Political Interest wrote:It's hardly idealist. Who could replace Putin?


The propagandists have done a proper job to spread the idea of the brilliant and smart Putin. That is total BS. Before a group of oligarchs selected Putin to run the country on their behalf, Putin was just a mediocre secrete service bureaucrat with an alcohol problem. They selected him because they thought him easy to manipulate. They could have selected anybody else. The group of oligarchs may be different today, but they control the president all the same. If he stops serving their purpose, they'll just select somebody else.

Stop propagating the idealized image of Putin.

He is not smart, and he'll lead the country into ruin. Everything is better than sticking with Putin.
#15103613
Atlantis wrote:The propagandists have done a proper job to spread the idea of the brilliant and smart Putin. That is total BS. Before a group of oligarchs selected Putin to run the country on their behalf, Putin was just a mediocre secrete service bureaucrat with an alcohol problem. They selected him because they thought him easy to manipulate. They could have selected anybody else. The group of oligarchs may be different today, but they control the president all the same. If he stops serving their purpose, they'll just select somebody else.

Stop propagating the idealized image of Putin.

He is not smart, and he'll lead the country into ruin. Everything is better than sticking with Putin.



That's true. And something that most people don't understand is that this group of oligarchs not only is not an enemy of the west, but on the contrary they Co operate and depends on the west.
After the fall of Ussr the top NATO state leaderships had to decide what they'll do with Russia.
They had many choices from dividing it into many smaller puppets to leave Russia alive (even help them on the backstage) and just integrate them to the western world both as an economical and political entity.
It's obvious what they chose and in my opinion it was wise to keep Russia "alive" because that's indeed how they could (and did) get the most of it both politically and economically .
Today's Russia role is to act like the villain for the rest of minor European nations so there is a reason for EU and NATO to keep existing.
That's why Germany, UK and France really haven't focused on their military after Soviet fall, because they don't need one, because there is no Russian threat.
And if you actually read the history and events of past 30 years, all Russia is doing is finally transforming into a real western capitalist nation. Both in diplomatic and financial institutions.
Now where does put in stick to all this? As our dear @Atlantis said previously. He is just a very good puppet. And that's why West media try so hard to make him look like president perfect. Because they want to keep this illusion of a Russian threat alive to the masses.

Reality though is far from that, again as previously said by Atlantis, he isn't Vlad Perfectov, he is just a puppet, the political unity of the country doesn't depend much on him and sooner or later, he shall be replaced by another puppet.

No need for worries though. If there is a true ally America and Germany have these days, that indeed is Russia. I'm not talking about surface and world shown politics I'm talking about the real thigg happening.
Russias gas pipelines and influence over Middle East, balkans and central Asia, help the west a lot against the belt and road initiative and from Chinese expansion towards Europe.
Russia is one of West most important allies nowadays, keep that in mind.
If you think I'm saying bullshit and I'm getting all these out of my mind just read modern history.
Last edited by Hellas me ponas on 29 Jun 2020 13:38, edited 1 time in total.
#15103614
Thus, my point is, Putin shouldn't be our concern. Russia will do just fine with or without him. Afterall EU and USA have their back.
The real concern here is what if China actually finally manages to bypass the Russian block, during the time putin's replacer is late and the Russian machine stays idle during that time.
#15103619
@Hellas me ponas, following the axis Paris-Berlin-Moscow that formed during the Iraq war and Putin's proposal of an economic zone from Lisbon to Vladivostok, we were on course for a rapprochement between the EU and Russia.

Of course, the Anglo Imperialists would have none of it. That's why they fueled the conflict in Ukraine to drive a wedge between Russia and the rest of Europe. When the Americans started to pull Ukraine into Nato in 2008, they knew perfectly well that the Russians had to react. With or without Putin, Russia would never allow Sevastopol to become a military base of a potentially hostile military alliance.

Driving Russia into the arms of the Chinese always was a bad idea. Bad for Russia and bad for Europe. Rather than being the junior partner of a alliance with China, Russia would fare much better as a full member of the European family of nations. And Europe needs to make peace with Russia to achieve lasting peace in Europe. Just shifting the Iron Curtain eastward wasn't a good idea. The dismantling of the Warsaw Pact and the withdrawal of Russian troops should have been matched by a withdrawal of American troops. Instead, Nato advanced eastward.

Since the US has become self-sufficient in fossil fuels due to fracking, US troops will sooner or later leave the ME. The EU doesn't have the ambitions to fill the vacuum by military means and Russia doesn't have the economic means to rebuild the war-ravaged region. The solution is obvious. Rather than letting Erdogan or bearded fanatics fill the vacuum, we need to swallow all the anti-Russian propaganda and come to a working relationship for the mutual benefit.
#15103623
@Atlantis
Your points are obvious and true. And although it's not much visible most of them have became true.
European, American and Russian corporations and companies are all very depended and tied one to each other.
Politically, Russia has to act as a threat and enemy of Europe, otherwise Americans will have no "justified" reason to have their military on European soil and demand their allies to obey them.
Without Russia(direct threat to Europe heartland) America can't act authoritarian and keep demanding so many things from Europeans.
And although there is a new "Russia" in China, European politicians and lawmakers do not comprehend the Chinese threat. Thus Americans need the Russians to keep acting that way, because if Russia shows its real goals and needs, European leaders will think that there is no threat anymore (which indeed is utterly idiotic but unfortunately is the truth).
Thus until Europeans understand or treat China as the threat she is to American reign, Americans will keep pushing Russians to act "ambitious and dangerous".
If Europe acts like a real good subject to America and help them against China then Russia problem will be immidiately solved, but European leaders have other things in mind. Thus for the next couple of hundreds of years Russia will keep being treated as a "threat" to Europe. Unless America falls.
#15103693
Atlantis wrote:The propagandists have done a proper job to spread the idea of the brilliant and smart Putin. That is total BS. Before a group of oligarchs selected Putin to run the country on their behalf, Putin was just a mediocre secrete service bureaucrat with an alcohol problem. They selected him because they thought him easy to manipulate. They could have selected anybody else. The group of oligarchs may be different today, but they control the president all the same. If he stops serving their purpose, they'll just select somebody else.

Stop propagating the idealized image of Putin.

He is not smart, and he'll lead the country into ruin. Everything is better than sticking with Putin.


But who is the replacement?

Hellas me ponas wrote:After the fall of Ussr the top NATO state leaderships had to decide what they'll do with Russia.
They had many choices from dividing it into many smaller puppets to leave Russia alive (even help them on the backstage) and just integrate them to the western world both as an economical and political entity.


No, they chose to divide Russia. The fall of the USSR was not enough.

Hellas me ponas wrote:Today's Russia role is to act like the villain for the rest of minor European nations so there is a reason for EU and NATO to keep existing.


It may serve that role indirectly but the ultimate goal of the West is a Muscovite state that is part of NATO.

Hellas me ponas wrote:That's why Germany, UK and France really haven't focused on their military after Soviet fall, because they don't need one, because there is no Russian threat.


Obviously not compared to the Cold War.

Hellas me ponas wrote:Now where does put in stick to all this? As our dear @Atlantis said previously. He is just a very good puppet. And that's why West media try so hard to make him look like president perfect. Because they want to keep this illusion of a Russian threat alive to the masses.


They portray Russia as an enemy because that is how they perceive it. Russia is a competitor on the other side of the chess board of Europe.

Hellas me ponas wrote:No need for worries though. If there is a true ally America and Germany have these days, that indeed is Russia. I'm not talking about surface and world shown politics I'm talking about the real thigg happening.
Russias gas pipelines and influence over Middle East, balkans and central Asia, help the west a lot against the belt and road initiative and from Chinese expansion towards Europe.
Russia is one of West most important allies nowadays, keep that in mind.
If you think I'm saying bullshit and I'm getting all these out of my mind just read modern history.


This is true in reality but the West have not realised it yet. The Western elites still view Russia as their major threat.

In fact the West prefer China and if there was a conflict between Moscow and Beijing the West would choose the latter. There are many Sinophile tendencies among the Western elites. Henry Kissinger is a Sinophile.
#15103700
There isn't one United "West".
After the fall of Ussr the west was split into two different entities and elites because they had won the global dominance "game"and there was no direct or real threat to any of them . They split between European west and American west.
They may Co operate in many sectors. But their ultimate goals are totally different.

American west has stop considering Russia as a threat simply because they turned it into their longterm ally.

Nevertheless European west never stopped seeing Russia as a threat even after the fall of Ussr because it now serves American interests and not European interests.
As long as American interests control Russia, Europe won't stop seeing Russia as a threat, because to them China indeed isn't neither an immidiately threat nor it challenges their interests and influence. Also the American controlled Russia is way worse both economically and politically because America uses it as leverage to get what they want from Europe. Europe may haven't shown it or stated it publicly yet, but its in their best interest for America to fall. America is practically useless to them, and after 1991 from their protector turned into their "rival", because Franco-german ambitions never stopped in just the EU. When Russia joins the European alliance then that would mean America is so weak it can't control its overseas protectorates and no longer is the world's first superpower. In other words, that would mean the fall of America.

You must understand the problem here isn't Russia itself and her ambitions since its only a puppet. The problem here is the schism between the two wests and the American struggle to keep their global dominance status against the rising Chinese juggernaut and the rebellious Europeans .

European West = Franco-german axis and their puppets (Greece, Poland, Italy, Spain, Romania etc)
American west = USA primarily, alongside UK and Canada and their respective puppets (Russia included)


Again, Do not watch this from local perspective, watch this from global perspective and you'll understand what's happening better. Because there is a clash of titans happening and here we are discussing only about their minions.
#15103707
Of course Europe prefers China to win. Because they know that if they win, they will finally independent to fulfill their ambitions and serve their interests freely without the annoying intervention of America and UK.
Whilst China although it has power to bring the Americans down they have neither the political neither the financial strength to control the world like Americans did before (there are hundreds of reasons for that andI can explain all of them in other forum or personal if you wish).
Or at least they will never manage to do it before Europeans have built up and turned into the world great power it will be without americas control.
When and if free of American control continental Europeans will finally start their real intentions going on. I have no information on what those ambitions are, but just imagine the Franco-german axis free of every restriction. It will be like a napoleonic France and 3rd reich combined into one entity. In other words Europeans, now more united than ever (as far as the ruling states elites) will take their status back as world rulers once again, if America ever falls. Only God knows what they will do after USA has fallen.

Thus you see, its in Europe's best interest for America to fall. And that's why they constantly keep undermining and betraying America in every way possible. Either that's by passively letting the Chinese get more ground either that's by actively fighting against American proxies in Africa and Middle East.



PS. Personally, I support Americans although I'm European, mainly because I don't want a Jerry to tell me what to do but also because America is the only other country of the world except Greece whose identity relates to democracy, thus I feel free only under their rule . I hope China gets fucked by us and Europe gets humiliated and beaten. Americans are proven to be the best when it comes governing the world so far, thus I choose to stay with them. But that's the opinion of only one person
#15103743
Political Interest wrote:But who is the replacement?


How about leaving that to the Russian people?

Or have you adopted Putin's view of democracy?

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