Russian armor heading towards border with Ukraine - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15165225
annatar1914 wrote:@Politics_Observer ,

Nobody 'stole' the Donbass from the Ukraine, or the Crimea, that is a damn lie. The Donbass region is ethnic Russian and came under attack by Fascists after the 2013 revolution in Kiev, and separatists therefore formed the Lugansk and Donetsk People's republics. I know, I know refugees who spent months dodging fire from their own alleged Ukrainian military forces, shooting at them. They fought the Ukrainian military forces off, with a little help from Russia (fortunately for them, the Donbass was the Ukraine's primary military industrial region already, and so the locals had sufficient arms to fight the Fascists off with.

Same with the Crimea. A vote was held by the Crimea's majority ethnic Russian residents to rejoin Russia, and so they did. Fortunately for them, the Ukrainian military wasn't around to try and murder them, but plenty of Russian forces there under agreement with previous Ukrainian and Russian governments.

This isn't America's fight to meddle in. The Ukraine is run by criminal oligarchs and fascist scum.




That is the way I see it as well. The Ukraine that emerged from the crumbling Soviet Union had no business claiming areas heavily populated by ethnic Russians like Donbass and Crimea. Especially given that Russia itself is not far off. It was, in the hindsight, not wise at all. It was bound to become a serious problem for Ukraine from a resurgent Russia.

But I will say the drunk Yeltsin was more to blame for that bad divorce proceedings. To challenge and break the central power of the Kremlin under Gorbachev, Yeltsin basically opted for all the Republics bolting intact. It is possible Yeltsin did not see what lay down the road. How could he? He could not take his head off the vodka bottle to contemplate anything beyond the immediate future. The divorce proceedings were too hastily pushed along, and countries like Ukraine and Georgia wound up with Russian properties that was bound to be points of future contentions.
#15165228
@Juin @Beren @annatar1914 @ingliz

Well for me, this is not a game. A lot of innocent and soldier lives on all sides are at stake. In my opinion, if the U.S. has committed to helping Ukraine, then it needs to stand behind it's ally Ukraine and provide them with the assistance they require. If the U.S. makes a commitment to Ukraine, then it needs to stand firm behind that commitment and stand firmly behind it's ally Ukraine. That is my position speaking from my own personal perspective. Failure of the U.S. to honor it's commitment to Ukraine will only further tarnish and further damage our reputation globally to where others would feel they wouldn't be able to count on us if we make a commitment to them. So, if the U.S. has made a commitment to Ukraine it needs to stand firmly behind that commitment. My two cents.
#15165229
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin @Beren @annatar1914 @ingliz

Well for me, this is not a game. A lot of innocent and soldier lives on all sides are at stake. In my opinion, if the U.S. has committed to helping Ukraine, then it needs to stand behind it's ally Ukraine and provide them with the assistance they require. If the U.S. makes a commitment to Ukraine, then it needs to stand firm behind that commitment and stand firmly behind it's ally Ukraine. That is my position speaking from my own personal perspective. Failure of the U.S. to honor it's commitment to Ukraine will only further tarnish and further damage our reputation globally to where others would feel they wouldn't be able to count on us if we make a commitment to them. So, if the U.S. has made a commitment to Ukraine it needs to stand firmly behind that commitment. My two cents.



@Politics_Observer ;

It is not a game. And the Ukraine is not in any formal or informal sense an ''ally'' of the United States or it's genuine national interests. Nor is Russia an enemy of the United States, in any formal or informal sense. Nor does Russia stand against the genuine national interests of the United States.

Anyone who tries to tell you any different than what I have said is either a fool, a liar, or insane. It's that simple. A true friend doesn't tell you what you want to hear, play to your passions and upon your sympathies, but tells you the truth as they see it.

We are on the brink. And for no good reason at all. Think of the common enemies of both Russia and America, and you should see that. A good man does not wish for chaos and bloodshed, meddle in the affairs of all nations, seek to rule over all; ''for their own good'', they say of course...
#15165244
Politics_Observer wrote:@Suchard

I wouldn't do that if I were the Ukrainians. I would just keep gathering intelligence on the Russian forces in the Donbass region figuring out their weak points and waiting for an opportune to hit it with a surprise attack and retake back what is rightfully mine that Russia stole from Ukraine. In addition, I would by laying all kinds of anti-tank mines, booby traps anti-tank and anti-personal mines and preparing a plan to arm every man, woman and child with weapons and digging underground complexes and tunnels to fight the Russians in a long, drawn out protected and expensive conflict if necessary. I would also be doing some diplomacy to get better weapons to combat Russian armor and troops. Also, good electronic warfare equipment too given that the Russians have excellent electronic warfare capabilities. But if the Russians were to decide to invade and occupy all of Ukraine, If I were the Ukrainians I would want to make that a very long, drawn out, protracted conflict that is very expensive for the Russians as part of an exhaustion strategy to exhaust the Russians and force them to eventually leave. But this is all up to the Ukrainians.

You do not seem to realize that Ukraine is no match for Russia. Tricks and traps will not win a war and the Russians will hit the Ukrainians with everything they've got. It will be a no contest. For 2021, Russia is ranked 2 of 140 out of the countries considered for the annual GFP review. It holds a PwrIndx* score of 0.0791 (a score of 0.0000 is considered 'perfect'). This entry last updated on 03/03/2021. Ukraine is ranked 25 of 140 holding a PwrIndx* score of 0.4396. The End: https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.php?country1=ukraine&country2=russia
#15165287
@Suchard

Ukraine is no match for Russia without American financial assistance and weapons. I have a very good grip on the situation. Just because Russia is a Goliath and Ukraine is a small less powerful country, doesn't mean that Ukraine can't beat Russia. We have also made a commitment to Ukraine and a commitment is a commitment. We should send plenty of money and weapons to Ukraine to assist them in defending their territorial integrity. I think the U.S. should sell the Ukrainians the weapons they need to take back Donbass AND Crimea from the Russians by the use of force. The Ukrainians need to wait and be patient for the opportune time to strike the Russians.

That all being said, the Russians took Crimea because of the naval port, but this is an opportunity for the US given that the Russia has decided to go into Ukraine and it's an opportunity for the Ukrainians to take back territory that the Russians stole from them. Crimea and Donbass belong to Ukraine and the Ukrainians have every right and should wait patiently to take back that territory through the use of force. And honestly, and I really mean this, this is no joke, especially with Biden in office and Trump being gone, if I were the Russians, I would stay on constant alert and never let my guard down because the minute they do, they could be facing a Ukrainian military attack in the land they stole from Ukraine backed with U.S. assistance. I think the U.S. should keep the money and military support pouring into the Ukrainians.
#15165296
Crimea and Donbass belong to Ukraine

Crimea was conquered by Russia back in the 18th century, and was always part of Russia until Khrushchev (a Ukrainian) gifted it to Ukraine in the 1950s for no reason that anyone has ever been able to fathom. Donbass has a majority Russian population, and has had a majority Russian population for many generations. If Ukraine does not 'belong' to Russia, then why should Donbass 'belong' to Ukraine?

and the Ukrainians have every right and should wait patiently to take back that territory through the use of force.

Ukraine has no natural right to Crimea, which has been part of Russia for centuries, and belonged to a Tartar Khanate before then. Donbass is more problematic, but Putin has not taken Donbass from Ukraine, and shows no inclination to do so in the immediate future. There is therefore no justification that I can see for Ukraine to use military force against either of those regions.
#15165300
@Potemkin

Hey, Ukraine declared independence and Russia recognized that independence and that territory as Ukrainians. So, Ukraine has every right to use military force to take back Donbass and Crimea. Russia doesn't get to change it's mind after recognizing a country's territorial integrity and Russia had recognized Crimea as Ukrainian prior to the conflict. Besides, Russia has engaged in aggressive actions against the U.S. so there is no reason for the U.S. to not support Ukraine. The Russians have hacked the U.S. and tried to interfere in our elections, so U.S. support for Ukraine makes it fair game even more so for the U.S. Russia has demonstrated hostile intent towards the U.S. when we have tried to be friendly towards the Russians in the past. So, be as it may, we have to treat Russia as an adversary and it is wise foreign policy to provide assistance to the Ukrainians.

We learn a lot from the Ukrainians about Russian tactics and techniques and how the Russians fight and we can adjust our military forces to counter Russian tactics. It also gives us a window into how Russia's new generation of fighting tactics operate. Very valuable information for us. And the more Russian forces have to engage Ukrainian forces, the more we learn about the Russians here in the U.S. and how to better fight the Russians. So, I say, send a bunch of money and weapons to help the Ukrainians and learn as much as we can from the Ukrainians while assisting them in completing their goals against the Russians.
#15165301
Russia has demonstrated hostile intent towards the U.S. when we have tried to be friendly towards the Russians in the past.

The USA has tried to be friendly towards Russia? When did this happen? :eh:
#15165303
@Potemkin

There were plenty of times where we tried to reset relations with the Russia on friendly terms and the Russians rejected it. In addition the more Russia has to tie it's forces down in Ukraine the more we learn about Russian new generation warfare tactics and how to counter those tactics and the less forces Russia has to make trouble for the US elsewhere. Really, I think the Russians will pay a heavy price in one way or another for invading Ukraine and taking a chunk of land. They will pay for that land if they are able to keep it. We're not going to let them get off cost free.
Last edited by Politics_Observer on 08 Apr 2021 17:12, edited 1 time in total.
#15165304
Potemkin wrote:The USA has tried to be friendly towards Russia? When did this happen?

In fairness, the USA tried to be friendly in the only way they know how - supporting a drunken imbecile shelling his own parliament while raiding as many of the country's assets as possible in the name of "liberalisation". To the American mind, this is the height of magnanimity. In fact, it's very poor form for the Russians to have been so ungrateful for this delightful intervention. :excited:
#15165305
Politics_Observer wrote:Ukraine

The Russians have no interest in taking Ukraine.

Their interest is in keeping what they have.

Dombass AND Crimea

If the regime attacks Crimea or Donbas in force, the Russians will repel the initial attack while taking out high-value targets in Kyiv; taking out command and control; taking out troop concentrations in reserve; taking out airfields, destroying naval bases and assets, well you know the rest.

Following Soviet doctrine, if America joins in, a nuclear torpedo will sink your useless white elephant of an aircraft carrier; tactical nuclear weapons will take out your forward bases, armor, etc., and we are looking at ICBMs and armageddon.


:)
Last edited by ingliz on 08 Apr 2021 19:19, edited 2 times in total.
#15165307
Politics_Observer wrote:@Potemkin

There were plenty of times where we tried to reset relations with the Russia on friendly terms and the Russians rejected it. In addition the more Russia has to tie it's forces down in Ukraine the more we learn about Russian new generation warfare tactics and how to counter those tactics and the less forces Russia has to make trouble for the US elsewhere. Really, I think the Russians will pay a heavy price in one way or another for invading Ukraine and taking a chunk of land. They will pay for that land if they are able to keep it. We're not going to let them get off cost free.

This is a quarrel between Russia and Ukraine, two nations which are thousands of miles away from the USA, on a completely different continent. Why do you feel you have the right to intervene on one side or the other? :eh:
#15165312
@Potemkin

Hey we have to take care of ourselves. Nobody is going to take care of the U.S. but the U.S. and Russia has demonstrated that it is an adversary of the U.S. by hacking our elections and interfering in our election processes here at home. Much like Ukraine, we have to defend ourselves too from the Russians and the threats they pose to our country and our democracy much as they pose that same threat to Ukraine and it's democracy.
#15165325
Politics_Observer wrote:@Potemkin

Hey we have to take care of ourselves. Nobody is going to take care of the U.S. but the U.S. and Russia has demonstrated that it is an adversary of the U.S. by hacking our elections and interfering in our election processes here at home.

I don't suppose you have any evidence for this? :eh:

Much like Ukraine, we have to defend ourselves too from the Russians and the threats they pose to our country and our democracy much as they pose that same threat to Ukraine and it's democracy.

What threat does Russia pose to the US? And what threat does the US pose to Russia?
#15165329
@Potemkin

You seriously don't believe that the Russians hacked our elections? You don't see the threat that poses to our democracy here in the US? They helped an idiot like Trump get into power here in the US and wreck havoc on our democracy. We are lucky that Trump, with the help of the Russians, didn't destroy our democracy and become a dictator.

We have every reason to help the Ukrainians and we would be foolish not to help the Ukrainians in light of Russia's actions against the U.S. and the very serious threat they have demonstrated with their actions that they pose to our democracy by interfering in our elections and nearly helping Trump to destroy our democracy and make him dictator. Ohh no, we need to help the Ukrainians.

Helping the Ukrainians with their democracy helps to protect our own democracy too and we get all kinds of valuable intelligence on the Russians and their military that we can use against them in the future should our forces have to directly fight Russian military forces. Plus we can tie down Russian forces in Ukraine to where they don't make trouble for us elsewhere, we can force them to spend more money out of their economy to keep their gains in Ukraine which then that money doesn't go towards modernizing their military to pose an even greater threat to us. The Russians have given us every reason to assist the Ukrainians.
#15165330
Politics_Observer wrote:You seriously don't believe that the Russians hacked our elections? You don't see the threat that poses to our democracy here in the US?

:lol:
The sanctimony of the American liberal will never stop being hilarious. You might want to do five minutes of reading on America's attitude to democracy in countries that happen to vote the wrong way. Indeed, spend five minutes reading about what America has got up to in Russia and eastern Europe since the fall of the Soviet Union, before playing the victim.
#15165333
annatar1914 wrote:@Politics_Observer ,

Nobody 'stole' the Donbass from the Ukraine, or the Crimea, that is a damn lie. The Donbass region is ethnic Russian and came under attack by Fascists after the 2013 revolution in Kiev, and separatists therefore formed the Lugansk and Donetsk People's republics. I know, I know refugees who spent months dodging fire from their own alleged Ukrainian military forces, shooting at them. They fought the Ukrainian military forces off, with a little help from Russia (fortunately for them, the Donbass was the Ukraine's primary military industrial region already, and so the locals had sufficient arms to fight the Fascists off with.

Same with the Crimea. A vote was held by the Crimea's majority ethnic Russian residents to rejoin Russia, and so they did. Fortunately for them, the Ukrainian military wasn't around to try and murder them, but plenty of Russian forces there under agreement with previous Ukrainian and Russian governments.

This isn't America's fight to meddle in. The Ukraine is run by criminal oligarchs and fascist scum.


That is all the other way around, though I understand your Russian ultra-nationalism, I do not condone it.

Russia is run by a one-man fascist dictatorship who meddled inside Ukrainian politics to prevent the Ukrainians from making a trade agreement with the EU. You have never offered a justification for these extremely pathetic actions on behalf of Russia.

Why does Russia has an issue with Ukrainians doing business and travelling in the EU?

The Donbass and the Crimea are Ukrainian national territories currently under illegal Russian occupation.
#15165334
Politics_Observer wrote:You seriously don't believe that the Russians hacked our elections? You don't see the threat that poses to our democracy here in the US? They helped an idiot like Trump get into power here in the US and wreck havoc on our democracy. We are lucky that Trump, with the help of the Russians, didn't destroy our democracy and become a dictator.

You keep saying this, but you never provide any evidence. :eh:
#15165335
Potemkin wrote:You keep saying this, but you never provide any evidence. :eh:


It's obvious that the Russians managed for a brief period of time to change the narrative inside the US.

Lots of Republicans even inside PoFo became Russian apologists @blackjack21 being one of the most prominent. Since when do you remember Republicans aping for Putin and Russia? :eh:

A lot of evidence has been provided in this forum in the past and a lot of it is out there as well.

Spam-bots in FYROM(Northern Macedonia) and elsewhere pumping out nonsense 24-7 were consumed by American people like candy. QANON, Pizza conspiracies, all have a common Slavic denominator.
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