[Independent_Srpska]

Both Israel and Palestine recognise Jerusalem as their capital. The issue was where America placed their embassy.

But sure, this is another issue about self determination and agrievences. The solution has always been a Palestinian state. But stolen land and uncompromising attitudes caused stalemate. America, with all its power can dictate its own rules to cause tension. FYR Macedonia does not have the same leverage. They are no threat to Greece. Only hypocritical fear mongering will cause such belief.

This is a threat to Greece, no doubt about that. They see it, they sense it and they are 100% right.
I am surprised by Greek acceptance of the name Northern, and it is a clear sign of Greek good intentions and will to end this.
If FYRM people decline this hand of friendship that would be complete madness.

[Independent_Srpska]

Cultural hegemony is the precondition for imperialism.

Old White Men are Destroying FYROM by Romanticizing Greece

Oh boy, it’s been awhile since I read mythological story like that!
Maybe this inclination to myths is the missing link between FYROM and original Macedonia

How it's possible that a job exists that is designed to change an age-old nationality t

And age-old?! Yeah, since the dawn of time....which was in 1944...
Since dawn of time bloody Greeks have been trying to “wipe out” their neighbors OMG...So, if Greeks don’t allow identity and history theft they are genocidal at least like American settlers towards native Americans.

[Albert]

@Independent_Srpska
I like how you believe US cold war propaganda that Tito somehow created FYR Macedonian ethnicity. I do not know of any other state in history who manufactured ethnic consciousness, on top of that within 30-40 year span. Soviets tried crating a Soviet man, did not really work out for them all that much.

Noemon Edit: Ridiculous propaganda that belongs in Conspiracy Theory or Alternative History. Alexander the Great Slav et al.

[noemon]

@Independent_Srpska
I like how you believe US cold war propaganda that Tito somehow created FYR Macedonian ethnicity. I do not know of any other state in history who manufactured ethnic consciousness, on top of that within 30-40 year span. Soviets tried crating a Soviet man, did not really work out for them all that much.

That's because it's true and it's pretty much an established academic fact. Austrian academic who has done extensive research on this curiosity.

This institute, which is by far the leading historical research institution in FYR Macedonia, was charged by law to write the history of the FYR Macedonian people and thereby to contribute to the consolidation of the imagined community of Macedonians, to which it has been devoting almost all its efforts ever since...

An important means to make the Macedonians different from the Bulgarians and to buttress Macedonian claims for national and ethnic distinctiveness was to dissociate Macedonian from Bulgarian history and to de-emphasize, or deny any relation between these two peoples. ... They declared the 10th century empire of Samuil, which hitherto had been known only as a Bulgarian state (as such it was also called by contemporary Byzantine sources), a Macedonian affair and began to trace the differences between Macedonians and Bulgarians in the time of the Slav's arrival in the Balkans (6 to 7th centuries).


After 1990, historians in the Republic of Macedonia soon settled in accepting communist-time scholarship as the base on which to build further research. The reluctance for a thorough re-evaluation of communist historiography was mainly caused by the fact that the very nation of Macedonia was a result of communist Yugoslav policies, and this historiography had played a major role in the nation-building process. Historians therefore feared that substantial critique of communist historiography and of the Yugoslav period would jeopardize Macedonian national identity. There was also no official effort for a re-evaluation of the communist past. Cracks in this consensus occurred after 1998, when the anti-communist opposition came to power. Revisionist tendencies appeared which portrayed Yugoslavia as a peoples' prison and tried to rehabilitate personalities from Macedonian history, previously kept out of the national pantheon. The main dividing line was the one between historians who kept to the radical dissociation of Macedonian from Bulgarian history, and those who accepted the cultural proximity between these two peoples. Both tendencies, however, shared their basically nationalistic conceptualization of the past.

The problem of course is not that their identity is manufactured after all Greece is more than willing to recognise it, but the specific parts which they use to call Macedonia in Greece as their unredeemed homeland. Slavic people did indeed live in the Greek region of Macedonia but they were exchanged with Bulgaria after World War I since they wilfully identified as Bulgarians, just like Turkish people were exchanged with Turkey and just like Greek people were traded in place of these exchanges from Bulgaria and Turkey. The Bulgarian, Turkish and Greek people who were exchanged back then have not formed separate identities in an attempt to carry on claiming "next year in whatever village my grandfather used to live but was exchanged" and to make matters worse the actual people in Skopje that fall into this category is actually minuscule, the rest never lived there anyway but have simply been brainwashed in order to turn them into vehicles of aggression during the Yugoslav invasion of Greece in 1946 right after WWII.

Soviets tried crating a Soviet man, did not really work out for them all that much.

It hasn't worked out for Skopje either.

[Albert]

In all this, only the western and Greek argument is being heard. They voices of Skopjans are not presented at all.

I was not aware much of the issue until this name change was brought up. Having read some ancient Greek literature before and now doing a little more reading about the subject. My perception is shifting.

And no, there has been no state that I know off who managed to fabricate an ethnicity. It just does not happen, if there is a conspiracy theory, there is one.

[noemon]

You don't lie very well and you forget that I remember you as Plaro. Bitterness is bad for your health Albertino. Take your alternative history about ancient Macedonians being Slavs into conspiracy theory. You will not drag this thread into the mud.

[Albert]

Oh I was joking around back then, this time around, I see perhaps my subconscious was actually trying to tell me something.

[noemon]

Neither myself nor anyone else here is talking ancient history for the alternative one to be relevant so your faux outrage is misplaced.

[B0ycey]

If FYRM people decline this hand of friendship that would be complete madness.

Man has always been stubborn, but until recently I have never understood just how much so. Both sides hold a principle that is complete madness. FYROM is no threat to Greece. In fact, if they were, they would already be fighting one another in the trenches such is the (so called) principle of this issue. So Greece should not fear FYROM self determining their own name in any regards what-so-ever. It is pure hysterical fear over nothing. 100%

But on the other side of the coin today we have compromise. But on pure principle of irrelevance we seem to have a potential breakdown on what has been agreed and Skopjans seem to rather disregard what would be beneficial for them in exchange for a principle that isn't worth much at all.

So yes, it would be complete madness, but we live in a mad world. When you have a world with Trump and Brexit, stupidity is just the damn norm today I'm afraid.

[Independent_Srpska]

@Independent_Srpska
I like how you believe US cold war propaganda that Tito somehow created FYR Macedonian ethnicity. I do not know of any other state in history who manufactured ethnic consciousness, on top of that within 30-40 year span. Soviets tried crating a Soviet man, did not really work out for them all that much.

Not Tito per se, but communist leaders of Yugoslavia in 1944 in WW2. Which was good tactical move for them at that point of time, in fact great one. They made distinction between nazi-Bulgars, and pro-Yugoslav almost-Bulgars, they paved the road for "drang nach suden", they installed buffer between nazi-Albanians and Nazi-Bulgarians.
Pretty smart huh? With grave consequences of course. Instant nationalities needs instant myths and identity thefts, but they destined to get continual opposition from the victims of theft attempt.

I would know. What Soviets failed, NATO continued, thus first there was a imposed administration (Bosnia), then came the people who named themselves (in 1993) after imposed administration, and named the language (in 1995) of their Serb ancestors after imposed administration. So, by pushing for this NATO for instance paved the road for creation of Austrian/Australian/American/Brazilian/Sovietian/Yugoslavian language, something Yugoslav communists couldn't do, nor even good old democrat Stalin

So, yes, attempts of identity thefts are not that uncommon and when they supported by "mysterious" geo-political forces (like in case of Bosnia or Kosovo) they undergo bellow the radar. Unlike Greece-FYROM issue.

Yet, all these cases of instant history creations and identity thefts have one thing in common - history chews them up and spits them out uglier then they were before. Just like it did in Bosnia after the Turkish nation gerrymandering, then after the Austrian game of artificial nation creation, the same is destined for the newest NATO instant nations.

BTW, question for you, in FYROM there is like 30% of Albanians, they are also "Macedonians", right?
Why don't they claim Greek heroes and Greek names and history?

[Albert]

Not Tito per se, but communist leaders of Yugoslavia in 1944 in WW2. Which was good tactical move for them at that point of time, in fact great one. They made distinction between nazi-Bulgars, and pro-Yugoslav almost-Bulgars, they paved the road for "drang nach suden", they installed buffer between nazi-Albanians and Nazi-Bulgarians.
Pretty smart huh? With grave consequences of course. Instant nationalities needs instant myths and identity thefts, but they destined to get continual opposition from the victims of theft attempt.

I would know. What Soviets failed, NATO continued, thus first there was a imposed administration (Bosnia), then came the people who named themselves (in 1993) after imposed administration, and named the language (in 1995) of their Serb ancestors after imposed administration. So, by pushing for this NATO for instance paved the road for creation of Austrian/Australian/American/Brazilian/Sovietian/Yugoslavian language, something Yugoslav communists couldn't do, nor even good old democrat Stalin

So, yes, attempts of identity thefts are not that uncommon and when they supported by "mysterious" geo-political forces (like in case of Bosnia or Kosovo) they undergo bellow the radar. Unlike Greece-FYROM issue.

Yet, all these cases of instant history creations and identity thefts have one thing in common - history chews them up and spits them out uglier then they were before. Just like it did in Bosnia after the Turkish nation gerrymandering, then after the Austrian game of artificial nation creation, the same is destined for the newest NATO instant nations.

BTW, question for you, in FYROM there is like 30% of Albanians, they are also "Macedonians", right?
Why don't they claim Greek heroes and Greek names and history?

There are no historical examples of state planned identity. Identity is formed by natural progression of history, there are no examples in history of where identity is manufactured out of the blue. There are examples of individuals who with their effort develop a nation's culture, but there already has to be a natural base of ethnic identity present for that to happen, that no one can form but nature itself.

Sure Bosnian Serbs are now formed into a state that is called Bosnia, yet they are still ethnic Serbs/Slavs, be their Muslim or Christian. Ukraine is a good example of manufacturing identity, but the efforts of its government has fallen short of changing the identity of the southern and eastern "Ukrainians".

Even state forced cultural assimilation is near impossible, look at the British isles, the English tried to culturally assimilate the Irish, Welsh and Scots. To a point where they almost eradicated their language. Even with these measures the identity of the Celts still persist. The Irish are slowly reviving their language now after centuries of subjugation.

[Atlantis]

Oh boy, it’s been awhile since I read mythological story like that!

It's the myth of Greater Serbia that has fucked with the Balkans and Macedonia for over a century.

[Independent_Srpska]

There are no historical examples of state planned identity. Identity is formed by natural progression of history, there are no examples in history of where identity is manufactured out of the blue. There are examples of individuals who with their effort develop a nation's culture, but there already has to be a natural base of ethnic identity present for that to happen, that no one can form but nature itself.

Well, if Bosnia and Muslims (ie. converted Serbs) from Bosnia are not striking example of planned change of identity and planned manufacture of history and language (by ruling forces of particular times ie. Turks, Austrians, Americans+NATO) I dunno what to offer you more obvious.

Sure Bosnian Serbs are now formed into a state that is called Bosnia, yet they are still ethnic Serbs/Slavs, be their Muslim or Christian.

Try to tell that to BiH-Muslims or Croats for that matter.

Ukraine is a good example of manufacturing identity, but the efforts of its government has fallen short of changing the identity of the southern and eastern "Ukrainians".

Even state forced cultural assimilation is near impossible, look at the British isles, the English tried to culturally assimilate the Irish, Welsh and Scots. To a point where they almost eradicated their language. Even with these measures the identity of the Celts still persist. The Irish are slowly reviving their language now after centuries of subjugation

Well, Serbs are almost 100% eradicated from Croatia, Federation of BiH and Kosovo in just 20 years. In next 20 years they will be statistical error, in 20 more their millennial presence in those areas will be myth.
The house of Nikola Tesla (burnt down by Croatian state) will be presented as a house of Croat Nikola Tesla, Sarajevo the second biggest Serb town in ex-Yugoslavia (just few decades ago) will be completely Muslim (95% officially today) with more Arabs than Serbs, UNESCO protected 11th century Serb churches in Kosovo will become Albanian "heritage"....
So, it is more than obvious that reality doesn't agree with you.
There are plenty of examples in history.

[Independent_Srpska]

It's the myth of Greater Serbia that has fucked with the Balkans and Macedonia for over a century.

You are partially right.

"Greater Serbia" is a myth, but by western media, just like Iraq WMDs.

[Atlantis]

"Greater Serbia" is a myth, but by western media, just like Iraq WMDs.

Why would Western media want to create a Greater Serbia?

That's more like something Russian media would do.

And unlike Saddam's WMDs, Sarajewo was very real indeed.

[noemon]

:lol: Why would Western media want to create a Greater Serbia?

That's more like something Russian media would do.

And unlike Saddam's WMDs, Sarajewo was very real indeed.

Phillip Corwin, former UN Civilian Affairs Coordinator in Bosnia, advisor and contributor to the work of the Srebrenica Research Group[330] said "What happened in Srebrenica was not a single large massacre of Muslims by Serbs, but rather a series of very bloody attacks and counterattacks over a three-year period."[331]

Lewis MacKenzie, former commander of the United Nations Protection Force (UNPROFOR) in Bosnia, was continuing to challenge the description of genocide in 2009 on the grounds firstly that the number of men and boys killed had been exaggerated by a factor of 4 and secondly that transfer of the women and children by bus contradicted the notion of genocide – the women would have been killed first if there had been an intent to destroy the group.

Western media not only created the myth of "Greater Serbia" in order to demonise the Serbs they created a lot more propaganda.

Lastly, the US and Germany were illegally arming Croatia(who also invaded Bosnia) long before these excuses were created. Good show.

[Independent_Srpska]

:lol: Why would Western media want to create a Greater Serbia?

That's more like something Russian media would do.

And unlike Saddam's WMDs, Sarajewo was very real indeed.

For the same reason they created WMDs. They needed it, for the agenda of those who put the bread on western media tables.

[noemon]

Syriza survived a vote of confidence yesterday and today they sign the historic deal in the Greek city of Prespes. The deal will still have to be put into a referendum in Skopje and then pass through both parliaments.

[Independent_Srpska]

Yeah, I saw Tsipras "survived".
We'll see what Skopje has to say.

In a way, for the sake of peace in my area it would be better FYROM to refuse the deal, to keep them out of NATO.

[noemon]

The deal shall pass mate. The referendum in Skopja will have a positive outcome I believe as the Albanians will definitely vote for it with 99% participation so you got a 35% of Yes vote right there and then you only need a 25% of the Slavomacedonian people to vote for yes for the deal to pass, which is a walk in the park I would assume.

Then it will need to be ratified by both parliaments which I am quite certain will happen with extended majorities given that the referendum is positive in Skopja.

It's done the deal has been signed.