It is Northern Macedonia after all? - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14924395
noemon wrote:Of course it is not just about the name of the country, but about a lot more things that have been dealt with in the agreement. It is about historical textbooks, revisionism, propaganda, fake narratives. The idea that Kossovo was a threat to Yugoslavia was utterly preposterous by the way even more so when Kossovar Albanians enjoyed full equal rights both as citizens and as a constituent nation. The idea that faux ultra-nationalist narratives should be permitted to fester is indeed preposterous and it does make Hitler look reasonable.


Macedonia is not a region within Greece, the comparison with Kosovo is nonsense. If anything you would have to compare it to Albania. But Northern Greeks have no intention to secede anyway, and Macedonia is in no way capable of taking it by force. And it's still just a stupid name. Macedonians calling themselves officially Northern Macedonia would in no way discourage them. In fact Greece's blatant interference with Macedonia' domestic affairs probably increased nationalist feelings there by a factor 1000.

As for "faux ultra-nationalist narratives", that's exactly what you are doing. It's all just faux bullshit Greek nationalism.
#14924396
Rugoz wrote:Macedonia is not a region within Greece


:knife:

Macedonia is the largest region of Greece, it is far larger than this fake country both in size and population and it predates her too.

The idea that Greece requesting from this country to distinguish herself from the Greek region and seize and desist all faux propaganda is anything but rational is quite preposterous indeed.

Rugoz wrote:But Northern Greeks have no intention to secede anyway


Their name is Macedonians, not Northern Greeks.

Your post is evidence enough of the obvious problems when you deny the existence of the real Macedonia and Macedonians as if there is no issue whatsoever.
#14924400
noemon wrote:Macedonia is the largest region of Greece, it is far larger than this fake country both in size and population and it predates her too.


:knife:

You know exactly I was talking about the country Macedonia, as everybody else is.

noemon wrote:The idea that Greece requesting from this country to distinguish herself from the Greek region and seize and desist all faux propaganda is anything but rational is quite preposterous indeed.


Greece can request whatever it wants. But blocking access to EU/NATO because of that nonsense is something else.
#14924402
Rugoz wrote::knife:

You know exactly I was talking about the country Macedonia, as everybody else is.


Denying the fact that Macedonia is a region of Greece is the very definition of irredentism and revisionism. I do not see anyone else doing it except for you while at the same time trying to convince me, yourself and others that it's not a big deal. :lol: If it is not a big deal why would you deny this name from Macedonia and Macedonians and transfer it to Eastern Bulgarians?
#14924406
noemon wrote:Denying the fact that Macedonia is a region of Greece is the very definition of irredentism and revisionism. I do not see anyone else doing it except for you while at the same time trying to convince me, yourself and others that it's not a big deal. :lol: If it is not a big deal why would you deny this name from Macedonia and Macedonians and transfer it to factual Bulgarians?


There isn't even an administrative region within Greece called Macedonia, so spare me your fake confusion. If Greeks cared so much about being called Macedonians, maybe they should have named their country Macedonia instead of Greece. As far as I can tell Macedonians care much more about it. Regardless, there's no international law that forbids giving your country the same name as a region in another country and I don't see why there should be one.
#14924408
Rugoz wrote:There isn't even an administrative region within Greece called Macedonia, so spare me your fake confusion. If Greeks cared so much about being called Macedonians, maybe they should have named their country Macedonia instead of Greece. As far as I can tell Macedonians care much more about it. Regardless, there's no international law that forbids giving your country the same name as a region in another country and I don't see why there should be one.


Oh dear God. Of course there is an administrative region called Macedonia in Greece that is larger in size & population than Skopje, that includes all of real Macedonia, than is inhabited by real Macedonians who can still read ancient Macedonian. Your suggestion that Greece should rename her country into Macedonia, Athens, Epirus, Sparta just so its people can call themselves by their regional epithets without prejudice is preposterous and frankly ridiculous. You denied Macedonia exists in Greece, you called the Macedonians as Northern Greeks and denied them their own name, spare me your faux outrage. You are not confused, you 're just bitter for being so ridiculously wrong. You are proof for what is exactly wrong with all this.
#14924412
noemon wrote:Oh dear God. Of course there is an administrative region called Macedonia in Greece that is larger in size & population than Skopje, that includes all of real Macedonia, than is inhabited by real Macedonians who can still read ancient Macedonian. Your suggestion that Greece should rename her country into Macedonia, Athens, Epirus, Sparta just so its people can call themselves by their regional epithets without prejudice is preposterous and frankly ridiculous. You denied Macedonia exists in Greece, you called the Macedonians as Northern Greeks and denied them their own name, spare me your faux outrage. You are not confused, you 're just bitter for being so ridiculously wrong. You are proof for what is exactly wrong with all this.


Even your linked article says it's a geographic and historical region, not an administrative region of Greece.
#14924414
Even your linked article says it's a geographic and historical region, not an administrative region of Greece.



:knife: The article says that in the administrative reform of 1987 the administrative region of Macedonia was split in 3 administrative regions, that of Central, East and West Macedonia which together comprise the geographic and historical region of Macedonia.

You are so ridiculously wrong that you have suspended all your logical faculties.
#14924415
A rose by any other name...

Hypothetically, say Greece did indeed accept the name 'Macedonia', what is it people expect to happen? Annexation? An uprising? A name doesn't prevent or cause such action. Public opinion does. I don't see the issue with it. Let the people of FYROM decide their nations name. And let Greece dictate the name they choose to decribe such nation. I shall call it Macedonia as that to me seems logical.
#14924416
B0ycey wrote:A rose by any other name...

Hypothetically, say Greece did indeed accept the name 'Macedonia', what is it people expect to happen? Annexation? An uprising? A name doesn't prevent or cause such action. Public opinion does. I don't see the issue with it. Let the people of FYROM decide their nations name. And let Greece dictate the name they choose to decribe such nation. I shall call it Macedonia as that to me seems logical.


I shall call you Albert because at this point that seems logical to me.
#14924419
Rugoz wrote:Besides, I was right. I did my homework.


:lol: No you weren't, insisting on denying reality and denying that the region of Macedonia even exists in Greece is not doing your homework it is proving why Greece is correct. Macedonia is in fact in Greece and the Macedonians are in fact Greeks. I'm sorry that bothers you so much.
#14924473
B0ycey wrote:A rose by any other name...

Hypothetically, say Greece did indeed accept the name 'Macedonia', what is it people expect to happen? Annexation? An uprising? A name doesn't prevent or cause such action. Public opinion does. I don't see the issue with it. Let the people of FYROM decide their nations name. And let Greece dictate the name they choose to decribe such nation. I shall call it Macedonia as that to me seems logical.


As explained in vain, unfortunately - inventing the name Macedonians in 1944 for people who considered themselves as South Serbs or mostly Bulgarians had very practical reason - potentially claiming additional territories towards important geostrategic port in warm seas. Yep, "petty thing"... Ridiculous thing also, when it's not your territory, right? Unfortunately, that kind of petty things takes away lives... Sometimes millions... "petty', right?
#14924482
Independent_Srpska wrote:As explained in vain, unfortunately - inventing the name Macedonians in 1944 for people who considered themselves as South Serbs or mostly Bulgarians had very practical reason - potentially claiming additional territories towards important geostrategic port in warm seas. Yep, "petty thing"... Ridiculous thing also, when it's not your territory, right? Unfortunately, that kind of petty things takes away lives... Sometimes millions... "petty', right?


The only thing that would take away any life is if Macedonia declared war on Greece in order to steal land that does indeed hold geostrategic ports in warm seas. But that is never going to happen. It is also never going to be accepted internationally either if there was a propaganda war to legitimise such claim to Greek land.

So I will repeat again. What is it people think is going to happen if Greece did indeed accept the national name Macedonia? After all, a nation decides their nations title. A neighbour doesn't do it for them. And that is how it should be. And if Greece is so touchy about a neighbouring territory sharing the same title, then why don't they just change the name of their own territory and be done with it rather than be part of a diplomatic row that is the grand scheme of things 'fuck all but a dick measuring contest'.
#14924494
Independent_Srpska wrote:potentially claiming additional territories towards important geostrategic port in warm seas.


I seem to remember that territorial expansionism and irridentism was more a thing with the promoters of Greater Serbia than with the FYR Macedonians. If anything, the FYR Macedonians have more to fear from the Greeks and the Serbs than the other way around.

But you are right, we should not interfere. The EU ought to stay out off the Balkan and leave it to the Ottomans to impose the peace.
#14924495
B0ycey wrote:The only thing that would take away any life is if Macedonia declared war on Greece in order to steal land that does indeed hold geostrategic ports in warm seas. But that is never going to happen. It is also never going to be accepted internationally either if there was a propaganda war to legitimise such claim to Greek land.

So I will repeat again. What is it people think is going to happen if Greece did indeed accept the national name Macedonia? After all, a nation decides their nations title. A neighbour doesn't do it for them. And that is how it should be. And if Greece is so touchy about a neighbouring territory sharing the same title, then why don't they just change the name of their own territory and be done with it rather than be part of a diplomatic row that is the grand scheme of things 'fuck all but a dick measuring contest'.


Mate, it is curious that a person can post so much condensed nonsense.

First of all, Greek objections to the name of FYROM are plenty:

a) Potential irredentism as already emanated by a failed invasion into Macedonia(Greece), just because something failed or it is set up to fail in the future does not mean that the raison d'etre should be permitted to exist. That is not logical in anyway.
b) Commercial confusion of Macedonian products.
c) Historical confusion of Macedonia, the ancient Greek kingdom and language with a Bulgarian polity and language unrelated to Macedonia.
d) Contemporary confusion of Macedonia and Macedonians as the one that has already taken place in this thread with Rugoz claiming that Macedonia is not even a region of Greece and that Macedonians should not call themselves as such even though they have been doing so for far longer than the other Bulgarians turned Macedonians.

Given that Greek Macedonia exists as an administrative and geographic unit long before FYROM was created, why would Greece be the one to change her name to accommodate whoever attempts to steal its territory and cultural heritage? What you are suggesting is that the home-owner should accommodate the thief because......? Feelings? Why? :eh:

Greece and FYROM have come to a compromising solution but you still moan because...? Feelings?

Atlantis wrote:I seem to remember that territorial expansionism and irridentism was more a thing with the promoters of Greater Serbia than with the FYR Macedonians. If anything, the FYR Macedonians have more to fear from the Greeks and the Serbs than the other way around.


After the KLA terrorist Albanians with German weapons were finished dismantling Serbia in Kossovo, they rose up in FYROM in 2001, Greece sent weapons to FYROM to prevent a Greater Albania from taking place. Skopjan Slavs are composed of Serbians and Bulgarians, 2 peoples that Greeks have a special relationship with, Greeks are the top investors in the country and the top tourists too, if their nationalist faux Macedonist wing came down to reality like they are trying to and we finalise this agreement, we will be best of friends and much better friends than any of you people have been to the peoples in the Balkans. I seem to remember that Serbia trying to preserve its own internationally recognised provinces of Serbia proper was termed unacceptable "Greater Serbia" among your circles. :lol: But please tell us how you disagree with all of NATO's illegal invasions, in Iraq, Libya, Syria but not with the one in Yugoslavia that your German government was cheerleading from start to finish and the only one that had no excuse either.
#14924501
Atlantis wrote:I seem to remember that territorial expansionism and irridentism was more a thing with the promoters of Greater Serbia than with the FYR Macedonians. If anything, the FYR Macedonians have more to fear from the Greeks and the Serbs than the other way around.


Mythology is strong in this one!

But you are right, we should not interfere. The EU ought to stay out off the Balkan and leave it to the Ottomans to impose the peace.


Couldn't agree more! 8)
#14924503
noemon wrote:
First of all, Greek objections to the name of FYROM are plenty:

a) Potential irredentism as already emanated by a failed invasion into Macedonia(Greece), just because something failed or it is set up to fail in the future does not mean that the raison d'etre should be permitted to exist. That is not logical in anyway.
b) Commercial confusion of Macedonian products.
c) Historical confusion of Macedonia, the ancient Greek kingdom and language with a Bulgarian polity and language unrelated to Macedonia.
d) The confusion of Macedonia and Macedonians has already taken place in this thread with Rugoz claiming that Macedonia is not even a region of Greece and that Macedonians should not call themselves as such even though they have been doing so for far longer than the other Bulgarians turned Macedonians.


History belongs in the past and shouldn't hinder self determination. As for market place confusion, what difference will the term Northern have to prevent this? Perhaps a Greek flag might help. It seems to work well for Cyprus. :lol:

Given that Greek Macedonia exists as an administrative and geographic unit long before FYROM was created, why would Greece be the one to change her name to accommodate whoever attempts to steal its territory and cultural heritage? What you are suggesting is that the home-owner should accommodate the thief because......? Feelings? Why? :eh:


No. The nation who should change the name is the one who is most aggrieved by the name being shared. I don't advocate for a name change actually. Just diplomacy. And by far the simplest solution is to allow each nation to name FYROM as they seem acceptable. And that would mean them sitting under 'M' in the UN.

Greece and FYROM have come to a compromising solution but you still moan because...? Feelings?


My feeling are irrelevant. But my understanding in the agreement has collapsed. Too much dick measuring I'm afraid. So we are at square one. But yes, I do believe a nation has the right to decide their own title.
#14924505
B0ycey wrote:History belongs in the past and shouldn't hinder self determination. As for market place confusion, what difference will the term Northern have to prevent this? Perhaps a Greek flag might help. It seems to work well for Cyprus. :lol:


Why do Bulgarians have the right to self-determine as Macedonians but Greeks do not? If history belonged in the past we would not be studying it but we would all opt for collective amnesia. You know there should be a limit of non-sense.

No. The person who should change the name is the one who is most aggrieved by the name being shared. I don't advocate for a name change actually. Just diplomacy. And by far the simplest solution is to allow each nation to name FYROM as they seem acceptable. And that would mean them sitting under 'M' in the UN.


Shared? Letting them have it, does not constitute sharing but them monopolising it. You are confused yet again and at the end of the day Greece and Greeks have no obligation to recognise this country that has already attempted an invasion. We can just sit on it forever and prevent them from joining any organisation that we are parts of. They invent a name, rebaptize themselves, invade Greek Macedonia, they fail, but we should let them have it because we are more "aggrieved"? :lol: What kind of logic is this is truly beyond me. A thief getting arrested for trying to steal your house is also an aggrieved party but we do not share our house with him just because he is aggrieved from his failed robbery.

My feeling are irrelevant. But my understanding in the agreement has collapsed. Too much dick measuring I'm afraid. So we are at square one. But yes, I do believe a nation has the right to decide their own title.


The Skopjan president huffing and puffing was already a given, that is the normal process that the agreement has to go through. It will be put into a referendum in Skopje.
#14924508
B0ycey wrote:The only thing that would take away any life is if Macedonia declared war on Greece in order to steal land that does indeed hold geostrategic ports in warm seas. But that is never going to happen. It is also never going to be accepted internationally either if there was a propaganda war to legitimise such claim to Greek land.


Oh, mate, if you only knew how many things happened shortly (few years) after they were deemed impossible to happen.


So I will repeat again. What is it people think is going to happen if Greece did indeed accept the national name Macedonia? After all, a nation decides their nations title. A neighbour doesn't do it for them. And that is how it should be. And if Greece is so touchy about a neighbouring territory sharing the same title, then why don't they just change the name of their own territory and be done with it rather than be part of a diplomatic row that is the grand scheme of things 'fuck all but a dick measuring contest'.


Well, obviously neighbours have a say in this case as they should.

There are "weird" things in human relations... for instance, the big chunk of planet had a say in "making Jerusalem a capital" process .. Such a "petty thing"... Measuring contest that claim lives... "Unbelievable", right?
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