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By JohnRawls
#14977162
skinster wrote:https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1080483799635496960


Again, the things that you are quoting are not lying but they are basically guiding people to a conclusions.

The surveys that were done show that:

1) Yes, majority supports labour stance as it is now. Around 30% Oppose. (That is correct).

2) Yes, around 55-60% support Corbyn leadership. Some minor part opposes his leadership (Not sure the percentage, probably around 15%).

3) Yet, still given they also overwhelmingly support a 2nd referendum ( 78% i think).

4) If labour constituency is given a 2nd referendum then apparently around 90% will vote to remain in the EU.

Most of the statistics were taken from the article that i posted and links within.

Those statistics are not mutually exclusive and wrong in my opinion because there is always a certain membership bias in each party. It is like asking "Do you support Trump?" from a republican and "Do you support his X policy?". In most cases they are satisfied with what they have but it doesn't mean that they do not wish for perhaps a different/better solution in their mind if given a chance.
By layman
#14977163
There are mixed signals coming from labour which may or may not be intentional. Do they feel the ambiguity helped them in the last election?

The issue of trident is worthy of comparison. Official labour policy ended up supporting it due to pressure from the unions but Corbyn is known to tell people in private he will end it. It is one of his most passionate causes.

As for the labour membership, it’s how to be very pro eu in every measure but when also very pro Corbyn of course. Possibly some
denial going on or assumptions it is a strategy?
User avatar
By Nonsense
#14977169
#14976248

skinster wrote:https://twitter.com/shaunjlawson/status/1080060640230891521



This accords with my own previously posted view that, the 2016 Referendum result, was ONLY the first part of a 'revolution' in this country that Tony BLAIR has created, by occupying the 'centre' ground of British politics.

The second part of this vacation from the 'centre' is what I termed as the, 'Nuclear Option'(politically), by electing Jeremy CORBYN to power.

The thing is, as the political pendulum swings,CORBYN & the so-called 'Left' are the beneficiaries of that 'swing'.

By extension, so too will those who have been subjected to Welfare Cuts-AKA-'Austerity', those whom the Tories support with their corrupt policies, will see retribution through 'redistribution'.

The political 'pendulum' will have swung back towards equilibrium, I am not so sure that any Labour supporter or MP even understands this, but, I am fairly certain it will happen & that there will not be a re-entry to the E.U.

That's because the Labour idea of being in a Customs 'arrangement' with the E.U, along with market access,with 'free movement', is just a rehash of MAY's 'Chequers' deal & will go down like a dud Scud with the electorate.

Labour could be in power for some time, ONLY if their manifesto is immediately radical, without weakening the country through more immigration, delivering real economic justice to working people, renationalisation all utility companies at the same initial privatisation cost as the money received on their sale & not sucking up to the business lobby.
Last edited by Nonsense on 03 Jan 2019 15:19, edited 1 time in total.
By Rich
#14977173
Brexit was built on lies. Lies that our politicans have been pushing for years. British politicans have continually blamed Europe for their own policies. British politicans have been among the most demented Muslim lovers on the planet. They have continually pushed for Turkish membership. Margaret Thatcher pushed for EU expansion and then Labour insisted on letting in East European workers early. Britain has continually pushed for human rights legislation, continually pushed for the rights of Kosovan Muslims over Christain Serbs. Blair wanted us to take us into the EU and Britain's politican continally attacked the idea of a 2 speed Europe.

British politicans have continually pushed for poltical correctness and attacked Russia. British politicans attacked Putin for his liberation of Chechnya from Muslim terrorists. British politicans continually push for effectively an open border to North Africa. They continualy push for asylum seekers. They want to be perpetual virtue signallers on refugees and asylum seekers, but expect Gadaffi, Libya, Turkey, Greece, France everyone else to stop asylum seekers reaching Britain, so as they hypocritcally whine on about Britain's generous asylum history.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#14977184
skinster wrote:I find it so strange that there are people in this country blaming Brexit on Corbyn. It is bizarre. :D

Also, the way the remainers get all self-righteous as though they expected the vote to go to what they wanted, reminds me of Clinton supporters in the U.S. who are still crying about their queen losing an election to a TV idiot.

Anyway, as you were.

Nonsense -

C0RBYN is NOT to 'blame' for 'BREXIT'.

'BREXIT' is theresa MAY's & the Tory's baby.

It was the PEOPLE who decided to 'LEAVE', it was the Tory government that created 'BREXIT' - AKA, the 'Withdrawl Agreement' with the E.U & NONE of the aforementioned is anything to do with CORBYN or anyone else.

Labour & CORBYN are just gaming the situtation that MAY has created, she alone is the architect of the situation, all she had to do was 'DELIVER' LEAVE on 29 March 2019 & NOT do any 'deal' which hands the E.U £39 BILLION of British taxpayers money over to the E.U.

NOTE: For those who say that 'LEAVE' lied about the NHS money, here is what was actually on their campaign buses.

" We send the EU £350 MILLION a week"- "Lets fund our NHS instead" - "Vote LEAVE" - "Let's take back control".

I challenge anyone to expose any 'lie' by 'BREXITER'S' within the above, in FACT, the figure mentioned was challenged, because the actual sum was higher.

A , 'BREXITER' is NOT the same as a , 'LEAVER'- the first is a reference to the 'Withdrawl Agreement'(of which some people are uninformed)the second is people who voted' LEAVE', attributing statements to either should be carefully considered beforehand.
It is NOT 'LEAVE'S' fault if the government choose to give the EU money which could i9nstead be spent on our NHS or if the Chequers deal leaves the EU with powers over the U.K, thus not giving us back 'control' in full.

Now, this is the political clincher that the British public will fall for, being as dumb as BBC presenters.

The Tories will see Theresa MAY depart, thinking that the stupid public will buy that as, 'having a 'clean' sheet', in which to fight the ensuing General Election.
They have 'bought' that line before, they think they will do so again, doing so will prove incontrovertibly, that the British public are STUPID.
By Rich
#14977197
Nonsense wrote:NOTE: For those who say that 'LEAVE' lied about the NHS money, here is what was actually on their campaign buses.

" We send the EU £350 MILLION a week"- "Lets fund our NHS instead" - "Vote LEAVE" - "Let's take back control".

I challenge anyone to expose any 'lie' by 'BREXITER'S' within the above, in FACT, the figure mentioned was challenged, because the actual sum was higher.

You might be from the Bill and Hillary Clinton school of truth, but I'm not. The above is a lie. This is why so many people went for Trump, at least Trump doesn't really try to hide the fact that he lies.

We do not send 350 million a week to the EU or anything close. For starters there's the rebate, but then there is all the monies received by private and government organisations from the EU budget. Yes we do still pay a net contribution, but I remind you again that it was Margaret Thatcher that pushed for the rapid expansion of the EU to include poorer members and Conservatives like Boris carry on her legacy not just pushing for Turkish membership, but Ukrainian as well. Its demented British politicians that insist that Crimea and Donets must be torn away form Russia and included in the EU via Ukrainian membership. More poorer members means we have to pay more.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#14977245
Rich wrote:You might be from the Bill and Hillary Clinton school of truth, but I'm not. The above is a lie. This is why so many people went for Trump, at least Trump doesn't really try to hide the fact that he lies.

We do not send 350 million a week to the EU or anything close. For starters there's the rebate, but then there is all the monies received by private and government organisations from the EU budget. Yes we do still pay a net contribution, but I remind you again that it was Margaret Thatcher that pushed for the rapid expansion of the EU to include poorer members and Conservatives like Boris carry on her legacy not just pushing for Turkish membership, but Ukrainian as well. Its demented British politicians that insist that Crimea and Donets must be torn away form Russia and included in the EU via Ukrainian membership. More poorer members means we have to pay more.



Nonsense -
The actual figure for 'net' contributions is highly questionable, but, 'rebates' are merely discounts, the liability doesn't change, for instance, if the 'Chequers' deal agreed means that we lose the 'rebates', that is to say the discount, then the full liability applies.

We will lose those 'rebates', because they ONLY apply due to Treaty agreements made by Thatcher & ONLY apply to members of the E.U for which will no longer apply to the U.K.
Payments to farmers will no longer apply, the Tory government will simply add farmers to their list of favoured recipients of taxpayers largesse, giving them £BILLIONS each year.
Payments to neglected areas of the country, as well as the £1.5BILLION to 'private' business will also cease.

John McDonald should cut all of these 'bungs' from the budget in his first year of office.

So, from 29 March 2019, we would(if in a customs arrangement)lose the 'rebate' & pay the FULL amount, currently £18.6 BILLION, less any adjustments as a result of non-membership corrections for 'overpayments', if applicable.

There should not be any further 'net' calculations on the annual amounts, as no further payments back from the E.U would happen & they would be paid in real time as the liabilities arise.

We only have Treasury figures for payments, these are collected monthly by the O.N.S, which is a private business paid for by the government & is therefore going to produce figures that fit the political picture, such as doctoring inflation figures used for calculation of pension or benefit increases each year.
User avatar
By ingliz
#14977251
Nonsense wrote:£18.6 BILLION

If you leave on WTO terms, the Treasury calculate you will be £81 billion p.a. worse off.


:lol:
By skinster
#14977255
These are the facts the UK media has buried to narrate a Brexit uprising against Jeremy Corbyn
The UK media has buried key facts to narrate a Brexit uprising against Jeremy Corbyn from his supporters.

Key fact
In its widely shared piece covering recent research on Labour members, the Guardian did not mention that 47% of members support the leadership’s position on Brexit. On the flip side, YouGov found that only 29% of members opposed the position, while 19% are neutral.

In other words, the percentage of Labour members who oppose Corbyn on Brexit is actually less than the 38% that voted for Owen Smith (who outright called for a second referendum) in the 2016 leadership election.

And the percentage of members who think Corbyn is “doing well” exceeds his vote share in the 2016 election (65%).

Uprising?
Yet the corporate media is essentially presenting the longstanding reality that many Labour members are remainers as some kind of uprising against the leadership:


According to the research, 72% of Labour members think Corbyn should “fully support” a second referendum. But that is exceeded by the 84% who want a general election in the likely event that Theresa May’s deal is voted down. And the question on whether Corbyn should support a second referendum did not specify whether that would be a ‘Leave versus Remain’ referendum or a public vote on the deal. This ambiguity risks inflating support for an outright re-run of the 2016 referendum.

Eyeing the corporate media misrepresentation, pro-Corbyn commentators were unimpressed:




In response to The Canary, the Guardian pointed to an additional article that includes the finding that 47% of Labour members support Corbyn on Brexit. But the outlet did not explain why its editors and author ignored the statistic in the original write-up.

‘Best outcome is an immediate general election’
Since Labour’s conference in September 2018, its Brexit position has been:

Should Parliament vote down a Tory Brexit deal or the talks end in no-deal, Conference believes this would constitute a loss of confidence in the Government. In these circumstances, the best outcome for the country is an immediate General Election that can sweep the Tories from power. If we cannot get a general election Labour must support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote.

With the Conservative Party on the brink, Corbyn could soon become prime minister of the UK – not simply leader of the opposition. The fact that so many Labour members back Corbyn’s position on Brexit reflects that reality.
https://www.thecanary.co/uk/2019/01/03/ ... my-corbyn/
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#14977328
skinster wrote:


Not sure which article you are talking about but the one that i linked had

The polling of 1,034 party members shortly before Christmas found that almost two-thirds believed Corbyn was doing very well or fairly well as leader, and 58% believe he could get a better Brexit deal than Theresa May as prime minister.


For example. Also saying that The Guardian is not biased towards Corbyn is a bit absured.
By skinster
#14977332
Not everything I post is a response to you, if it was, I'd be quoting you.

JohnRawls wrote:Also saying that The Guardian is not biased towards Corbyn is a bit absured.


What?
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#14977336
skinster wrote:Not everything I post is a response to you, if it was, I'd be quoting you.



What?


Pardon mua but we were talking on the subject.

What?


Guardian is biased in favour of labour.
By skinster
#14977342
Meet the suits behind the 'People’s Vote Campaign' and 'Open Britain'
HELEN FIELD reveals that depsite calling for a 'people's vote', the corporate elite backing the leading anti-Brexit campaign are about as far away from 'the people' as you can get

INFORMATION from Companies House reveals a rich elite that includes Tory, Lib Dem and right-wing Labour politicians, company directors, and chairmen of global corporations, are giving huge support to the so-called People’s Vote campaign to hold a second EU referendum in the hope of stopping Brexit.

The People’s Vote website has at the bottom of each page its registered address: Open Britain, 21-24 Millbank Tower, Millbank, London, SW1P 4QR.

Open Britain Ltd started life in June 2015 as the Interim Campaign (company number 9641190) registered under the sole name of Laura Jane Sandys, a Conservative Party politician who served as the Member of Parliament for South Thanet between 2010 and 2015.

Weeks later, on July 23 2015, the Interim Campaign changed its company name to The In Campaign Ltd. During the referendum campaign of 2016, the Electoral Services Commission designated The In Campaign as the lead group for the 63 different groups and individuals registered to support Remain. (Leave had 60).

The In Campaign Ltd went through a further name change and rebranding on September 6 2016 to become Open Britain Ltd (company number 9641190).

Nowhere on the Open Britain website does it mention its directors, and it is soon clear why. You have go to Companies House to find the full list of these grey-suited representatives of the corporate elite shilling as the voice of “the people.”

Take Sir Michael Derek Vaughan Rake. He is chair of Phoenix Global Resources Ltd. This company is currently fracking on a huge basis in Argentina. Its 2017 accounts, downloaded from Companies House, reveals the following on page 6: “Vaca Muerta is a world-class unconventional resource play with current production in excess of 90,000 boepd (barrels equivalent per day) and a production expectation of more than 110,000 boepd in 2018, double 2016 production. Unconventional oil and gas has the potential to transform the future of Argentina’s economy.”

Worried? You should be. The Centre for Environmental International Law had this to say about the project:

“A report presented to the United Nations Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (CESCR) highlights the adverse economic, social, and cultural rights impacts of fossil fuel extraction at the Vaca Muerta shale formation in Argentina on local residents and indigenous Mapuche communities. It also highlights the project’s massive contributions to climate change. If the Argentinian government’s plans for large-scale exploitation of the Vaca Muerta shale formation come to fruition, the country will significantly increase its greenhouse gas emissions and undermine the objectives of the Paris Climate Agreement.”

Sir Michael Rake, president of the CBI till 2015, has other companies registered at Companies House – NewDay Ltd (credit cards) and MDVR Services.

Of the other 10 directors of Open Britain we have:

Roland Dacre Rudd — brother of Amber Rudd MP. He is also chair and founder of The Finsbury Group, a multimillion-pound financial consultancy company. Its Annual Report and Financial statements for 2017 make illuminating reading. It records a gross profit for 2017 as £29,570,476 (page 9), corporation tax paid £514,045. A dividend payment of £10 million was approved and paid by the board for the year 2017 (page 3). Brexit is listed as one of six key business risks facing the company (page 2).

Roland also guarantees the leasing costs for Open Britain’s swanky offices in Millbank Tower. On March 5 2018 a 14-month lease was taken out for office space, costing £86,400. Remember this is also the office from which the People’s Vote website is run.

Richard Reed — multimillionaire co-founder of Innocent drinks (sold to Kraft reputedly for £300 million) and JamJar Investments.

James McGrory who spent his time from 2010 until 2015 working hard in the Con-Dem coalition government as adviser to Nick Clegg (recently employed by Facebook).

The remaining six are Lord Peter Mandelson, June Sarpong, Will Straw — son of Jack, Joseph Peter, Carberry Daniel, Vereker Gieve and Trevor Phillips.

I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that these people’s main concern would be stopping a socialist government.

Leaving the EU will undoubtedly make it easier for a Corbyn-led Labour government to implement its brilliant policies from the 2017 election manifesto. These include not only redistribution of wealth from the few to the many, but also environmental policies, especially sustainable energy, public transport and insulation of homes. With less than 12 years to combat climate chaos our only hope is to have a general election and elect a Labour government.

A “people’s vote” will jeopardise this. It is more likely to disengage millions (“what’s the point in voting? They’ll only change it later”), and empower the extreme right wing. The only winners would likely be the Tories, picking up the disenfranchised voters of a wrecked Labour Party, and then we’ll probably never get rid of them. But maybe this is really what the organisers of the people’s vote want.

Helen Field is part of Southampton People’s Assembly.
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article ... F.facebook

Sources: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09641190 https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05083946 http://www.finsbury.com/people/roland-­‐rudd/
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By redcarpet
#14977412
The Guardian is a neoliberal rag. With occasional left-wing articles, etc. Tony Blair & New Labour co. converted them in the 1990s and part of the conspiracy theory of a new 'anti semitism' wave in the UK Labour Party. They're no more 'left wing' than CNN or other MSM networks in the USA the Clintonoids took-over In the same period
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By JohnRawls
#14977448
redcarpet wrote:The Guardian is a neoliberal rag. With occasional left-wing articles, etc. Tony Blair & New Labour co. converted them in the 1990s and part of the conspiracy theory of a new 'anti semitism' wave in the UK Labour Party. They're no more 'left wing' than CNN or other MSM networks in the USA the Clintonoids took-over In the same period


But labour is still a liberal party so i do not see a problem here :eh: Actually isn't this a good description of labor in general. Neoliberal rag with occasional left-wing leaning.
User avatar
By ingliz
#14977454
JohnRawls wrote:Neoliberal... with occasional left-wing leaning.

The majority of Labour MPs? Yes.

The Party not so much now, if we are to believe the Guardian.
#14977456
What an awful hostorical fact that England wants to leave the EU.
It’s a shame!
The Brexit has been voted thanks to (!) the lies of (among others) Mr Boris Johnson and other extreme parties.
Even recognized after the vote, the government has not decided to cancel the vote.
It’s still time.
I think the EU investors will globally stop the investments in GB.
Personally I love GB and I’m visiting it twice every year, because I’am (like many others) respecting the EU.
When really the Brexit is officialised my holidays will be in EU Ireland.
I know 7 persons who work in England (banks and good working companies). I spoke to them at the end of the year and ... everybody, with no exception, will either continue their work in France or in Germany. One has just signed with a company in Canada.
I wish you all good luck, being disappointed by this negative BREXIT, I’m afraid that this will isolate more and more England!
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