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By noemon
#14979722
The Guardian wrote:'We are being abandoned': Britons in EU on the Brexit deal vote
A British carer, a caterer and a winemaker are among those feeling anxious as MPs prepare to vote on Theresa May’s deal

Jon Henley, Jennifer Rankin, Sam Jones and Angela Giuffrida

Les and Louise Buchanan, who live in Barcelona, say Brexit has left them racked by uncertainty
Their problems, fears and concerns run the gamut, from the practical to the emotional and the existential to the deeply personal.

In advance of the Commons vote on Tuesday, some of the estimated 1.3 million British citizens living elsewhere in the EU worry they will lose their livelihoods because they will no longer be able to work across more than one country, or their professional qualifications may no longer be recognised.

Others fear they will have to refocus and rebuild businesses they have built up over decades, or are concerned they will not now be able to look after ageing parents in the UK. Emotionally, many feel a part of their identity is being amputated.

The freelance consultant: Fiona Godfrey, Luxembourg

Brexit has “completely turned my life upside down”, says Fiona Godfrey, who fears being out of work in less than three months. A health policy consultant, she lives in Luxembourg and often works in Brussels and other EU member states.

As a freelancer, she is deemed to be providing services and so is not covered by the Brexit withdrawal agreement, which protects the rights of employees. Deal or no deal, she faces “a daunting and huge undertaking” to find out whether she can continue to work after 29 March.

While she hopes to gain Luxembourgish citizenship, if that does not come through soon she will be scrambling for legal advice. “I’ve worked all my adult life and it is a big worry to think that I might be about to lose my livelihood,” says the 53-year-old.

Like many British nationals, she feels abandoned by the British government and is scathing of officials’ advice to her and other British nationals that the best way to secure status is by applying for citizenship in their host country.

I find it astonishing that the only way the British government can tell us to maintain our rights is to apply for the citizenship of another country. We are being completely ignored and abandoned and there is very little help from anyone, anywhere.”

The caterer: Helen Burnham, the French Alps
Helen Burnham and her husband, Duncan, a private chef, run a successful catering business in the Belleville valley, part of the Trois Vallées ski area, where they settled permanently 11 years ago after selling up and leaving their jobs in the UK.

“We’re going to be the ones who lose out: British citizens in the EU,” says Helen Burnham, 42. “EU nationals may face barriers to living in Britain, but they’ll still have the other 27 member states to choose from. After Brexit, we won’t.”

That could cost them half their annual income, she says, since, when their work catering for French, British, Belgian and Dutch clients in ski chalets is quiet during the summer months, they move their business to private villas in Spain, Portugal or Greece.

“For the last 10 years, all that business has come to us through word of mouth, from contacts we’ve built up in those countries,” she says. “It will really not be easy to replicate that in the south of France. And it’s nearly 50% of our revenue.”

She says she is “angry – at the whole way it’s been dealt with, how people have been treated: we were promised nothing would change. Well, a lot’s changed already.”

Owing to what they hope was an administrative error, the couple were granted only temporary residence permits, but have begun the process of applying for French nationality. “We have nothing to go back to,” says Helen. “All we have is here.”

The carer: Nicola James, Enkhuizen
Nicola James left the UK in the depths of the 1991 recession with “very little money in her pocket”. She got a job teaching English in Cologne and later worked in hotels, banking and on a cruise ship.

“I am a bit of a poster child for the freedom bit of freedom of movement,” says the German language graduate. Nearly three decades later, living in the Dutch city of Enkhuizen, she finds herself caught: she fears she will one day have to choose between living with her Dutch husband, who has multiple sclerosis, or being close to her elderly parents in Hertfordshire.

Under the terms of the withdrawal agreement, once the Brexit transition period is over, her husband would have no automatic right to live in the UK. Their family income is below the current UK minimum threshold, barring him from settling in the UK if the rules remain unchanged after 2020.

“It seems to be to be utterly Kafkaesque to be in a situation where you didn’t get a vote and you are suddenly asking, do I leave my husband to fend for himself or do I leave my parents to just get on with it?” she says.

Twelve years ago, James was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder and lives with a generalised anxiety disorder. She says Brexit is not helping. “One of the worst things for mental health is uncertainty.”

This week brought good news when the Dutch government announced British citizens could stay in the event of no-deal Brexit, but she is still gripped by existential worries. “I’m being exiled for the crime of falling in love and exercising my freedom of movement rights.”

The winemaker: Gavin Quinney, Bordeaux

At the personal level, Gavin Quinney, who after floating his IT business bought Château Bauduc in 1999 “for the price we were going to pay for a family home in Putney”, reckons his family should cope, eventually, with the practicalities of Brexit.

“We’re economically active, we pay taxes and social security, two of our four children were born here so now have dual nationality, and we’re finally starting to move on residence permits for the rest of us,” he says.

There’s a distinct feeling of ‘why should we even have to’ and deep sorrow at losing our European identity.” His primary concern is for his daughter Sophie, who has special needs: he fears a no-deal Brexit could affect the French state’s provision for her.

Business-wise, it is tougher. No deal would be “catastrophic”, says Quinney, who sells about 60% of the wine produced from his 65-acre vineyard direct to private customers in the UK and restaurateurs including Rick Stein and Gordon Ramsay.

His short-term plan is to stockpile enough of his wine in UK warehouses to at least tide him over until the autumn. After that, he says there will be a hard border at the Channel whatever anyone claims, and his business will have to adapt.

Frictionless trade does not exist outside the single market. Once the UK is unplugged from the EU system that lets trucks go straight through Dover … Our strategy I guess will be to use the transition period to move some business away from the UK.”

The lawyer: Charlotte Oliver, Rome
The Italian government has said British nationals in Italy would remain legally resident, keeping their existing rights to work, in the event of a no-deal Brexit, but myriad concerns remain.

“I believed it would be easy to get a job in the legal world in Italy – it was Europe and opportunities were growing,” says Charlotte Oliver, a lawyer, who moved to Italy in 2001 to join her Italian boyfriend and became the first British solicitor to be admitted to the Italian bar council thanks to a new EU directive.

“It was in fact very tough. It took 10 years, while at the same time raising two children, to build up experience and perfect my Italian.”

Oliver, 52, went on to establish her own firm in 2013, but now faces uncertainty over whether her qualification as an Italian lawyer can or will be revoked, or if she can continue to practise as a British solicitor.

Her rights to healthcare, a pension and freedom of movement within the EU, which is crucial for her job, are also at risk. She is applying for Italian citizenship, but that process now takes about four years, instead of two, under new rules recently approved by parliament.

It is immoral, and I believe illegal, that any person who has been given EU citizenship, and then exercised free movement, can be told our rights could be taken away,” she says.

The psychologist: Matt Bristow, Berlin
Matt Bristow returned to Berlin last summer fearing it could be his last chance. A 33-year old psychologist, he had always intended to live again in the German capital, where he owns a flat. Brexit forced a decision.

“I have always felt happiest here and I felt the need to grab this opportunity while I still have it,” said Bristow, who quit the NHS earlier than planned and now works for a local authority in Berlin.

Despite being fluent in German and doing part of his psychology training in the country, getting his qualifications recognised was not easy: it involved 18 months of form filling, language tests and legal translations costing hundreds of euros.

At least the cost of living is cheaper than London: “I never felt like I had much money at the end of the month despite being in a reasonably well-paid professional job.” But he is increasingly anxious about no-deal Brexit, as his contract expires in the summer.

“My worry is that I might be caught in a catch-22, that it will be harder to convince new employers to employ me if I haven’t got a clear residence permit, but for some residence permits you need to have a job or a clear offer of work.”

While the referendum result left him devastated, he now feels frustrated with the process and believes British nationals in the EU have been forgotten by British politicians. “We are out of sight and out of mind.”

The job-seeking academic: Louise Howes, Lund
After finishing her PhD Louise Howes, 30, moved to southern Sweden in 2015 to take up a research post in the astronomy department at Lund University, a contract that is up at the end of February.

“My fiance is also British – we’re getting married this summer – and his contract runs another five years,” she says. “We want to stay in Sweden, we like it. So I’m currently job hunting, for something maybe in research project management or data science.”

Howes says she feels a “constant underlying nervousness” about what Brexit may bring, a “level of added stress I really don’t need … We’ve been told it will all be fine, but there’s nothing in writing. If you’re in full employment it should be quite straightforward, people say – but what if you’re not?”

She is also applying for jobs in Copenhagen, less than an hour’s commute away across the Oresund Bridge. “Lots of people do it, in both directions,” Howes says. “But I have absolutely no clue whether as a British citizen I’ll be allowed to after Brexit. Non-Europeans have had problems, I know.”

Brexit will ruin the lives of British citizens in Europe. We deserve a vote

More generally, she says, she is, like almost everyone in the university sector, “acutely aware not just of the damage it will do to British universities but the problems it’s going to cause for EU academics and researchers in Britain, and Britons in European universities”.

The pensioners: Les and Louise Buchanan, Barcelona
As the hours tick by towards the Brexit deal vote on Tuesday, Les Buchanan, 75, and his wife, Louise, 71, in Barcelona find themselves assailed by an all too familiar sensation.

“It’s the uncertainty,” says Les Buchanan, who worked as a diplomat for 40 years before retiring to Spain in 2000. “Once you know something, you can face up to it.”

He still feels exasperated at being denied a vote in the referendum because he had lived outside the UK for too long. But the pressing concern is what happens next, especially if the UK crashes out.

“We don’t really know what the Spanish government line will be,” he says. “At the moment, we’re covered by the local health service and the British government pays the Spanish government for expats who were in the British system. Will that cease?”

He is also worried his sterling pension could take another knock and that the British government could use Brexit as an excuse to freeze expat pensions. But he is grateful that at least he and his wife should be able to weather the financial loss.

“For young people embarking upon their lives and being denied the benefits and freedoms the EU provides, it borders on the criminal,” he says.

The couple have taken the necessary tests to acquire Spanish nationality but Les Buchanan is holding off renouncing his British citizenship, as he would have to: “I’m very pissed off, but not pissed enough to say I’m not British any more.”
By snapdragon
#14979813
It's sad, but unsurprising, the way many young people like skinster have been seduced by Jeremy Corbyn's dream of socialism in one country for Britain. It can't possibly work and the likelihood of him being allowed to ruin Britain's economy the way he wants is virtually zero, anyway. ( I bloody hope so).

There's a part of me that would love to see how he'll work out how to strip the assets from his champagne socialist cronies without being lynched, but given the choice between watching that car crash and stopping Brexit, there isn't really any competition for me.

John Rawls is right. What turned many people off the EU was Labour's decision not to limit the number of east Europeans able to migrate to Britain when the EU expanded.

Nothing to do with sovereignty and all that nonsense. For the elderly it was a wish to turn back time to when there were virtually no foreigners living here.

Both sides lied, but Professor Dougan was absolutely right when he said the lies told by the leave side were industrial strength. They didn't dream they would win, so no need to ever have to put their ridiculous claims on the line. They could claim whatever crap they wanted and after they lost would be wildly popular with the electorate. Boris Johnson thought he'd be PM by Christmas.

Ah well. Hopefully, all is not lost. Most Labour members want Corbyn to call for another referendum and he can't be stupid enough to resist for much longer, surely?


Nobody thinks is the EU is perfect, but Britain is miles better off in than out.
By Rich
#14979815
The campaign was a battle between a bunch of anti-EU liars on the one hand and a bunch of anti-EU liars on the other. Both sides leadership have constantly tried to blame Europe for their own polices. Britain pioneered mass immigration with the use of German slave labour after WWII. It then pioneered the mass immigration of low education, criminally inclined, non Europeans. Britain pushed the human rights agenda on Europe. Britain pushed for the expansion of the EU into Central Europe. Britain pushed for the free movement of Eastern Europeans. It wasn't Europe that forced the Labour government to flood Britain with Somalis. Cameron loved mass immigration, but wanted to position himself slightly to the right of Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the SNP who were all unreconstructed mass immigration, so he sought to blame Europe for his own policies.

It was Britain that constantly pushed to open the Mediterranean immigration flood gates. It was Britain that constantly pushed for Turkish EU membership. It was Britain that constantly pushed to expand the EU out into the Steppes of Russia. It was Britain that sought to make itself the most welcoming home for Muslim Jihadists, much to the enragement of the European security forces.
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By redcarpet
#14979816
Rich wrote:The campaign was a battle between a bunch of anti-EU liars on the one hand and a bunch of anti-EU liars on the other. Both sides leadership have constantly tried to blame Europe for their own polices. Britain pioneered mass immigration with the use of German slave labour after WWII. It then pioneered the mass immigration of low education, criminally inclined, non Europeans. Britain pushed the human rights agenda on Europe. Britain pushed for the expansion of the EU into Central Europe. Britain pushed for the free movement of Eastern Europeans. It wasn't Europe that forced the Labour government to flood Britain with Somalis. Cameron loved mass immigration, but wanted to position himself slightly to the right of Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the SNP who were all unreconstructed mass immigration, so he sought to blame Europe for his own policies.

It was Britain that constantly pushed to open the Mediterranean immigration flood gates. It was Britain that constantly pushed for Turkish EU membership. It was Britain that constantly pushed to expand the EU out into the Steppes of Russia. It was Britain that sought to make itself the most welcoming home for Muslim Jihadists, much to the enragement of the European security forces.


And British white immigration BY FORCE in colonies in the heyday of the British Empire too.

Immigration is bad if YOU do it! But if WE do it it's expanding civilisation and bringing up you savages to 'human beings' so shut up and don't get uppity & sing 'God Save the Queen'!

EDIT:

Also a very notorious lie; the Brexit Bus saying “We send the EU £350 million a week.” Except it’s not true. That figure fails to take account of Britain’s rebate – negotiated, incidentally, by the Brexiteers’ heroine, Margaret Thatcher – worth the best part of £100m each week. To say nothing of the money the EU sends back to the UK, mainly to help British farmers, which reduces the net weekly cost of EU membership to an estimated £160m or less.
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By Nonsense
#14979850
Rich wrote:The campaign was a battle between a bunch of anti-EU liars on the one hand and a bunch of anti-EU liars on the other. Both sides leadership have constantly tried to blame Europe for their own polices. Britain pioneered mass immigration with the use of German slave labour after WWII. It then pioneered the mass immigration of low education, criminally inclined, non Europeans. Britain pushed the human rights agenda on Europe. Britain pushed for the expansion of the EU into Central Europe. Britain pushed for the free movement of Eastern Europeans. It wasn't Europe that forced the Labour government to flood Britain with Somalis. Cameron loved mass immigration, but wanted to position himself slightly to the right of Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the SNP who were all unreconstructed mass immigration, so he sought to blame Europe for his own policies.

It was Britain that constantly pushed to open the Mediterranean immigration flood gates. It was Britain that constantly pushed for Turkish EU membership. It was Britain that constantly pushed to expand the EU out into the Steppes of Russia. It was Britain that sought to make itself the most welcoming home for Muslim Jihadists, much to the enragement of the European security forces.


Nonsense -


Do you ever read some of the oft-repeated NONSENSE that you post on here?... :roll: :roll:

Rich -
"The campaign was a battle between a bunch of anti-EU liars on the one hand and a bunch of anti-EU liars on the other".
By Rich
#14979861
Nonsense wrote:
Nonsense -


Do you ever read some of the oft-repeated NONSENSE that you post on here?... :roll: :roll:

Rich -
"The campaign was a battle between a bunch of anti-EU liars on the one hand and a bunch of anti-EU liars on the other".

I don't post nonsense. I certainly don't post nonsense.toUppercase. But I do read what I write. And yes that is what I meant to say, the Remain leadership, notably David Cameron had engaged in anti-EU lies. The whole basis of the referendum, that our EU membership required a fundamental renegotiation was a lie. The EU is constantly evolving, through a constant renegotiation of its members. The whole idea that Europe, whether its national politicians or its bureaucrats was ganging up on Britain was a lie.

Britain only appears to lack influence because Labour and Conservatives often have opposite priorities in EU negotiation, such as the social chapter, or politicians conceal their priorities such as bailing out the banks, getting Turkish EU membership and being a client state of Israel.
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By Nonsense
#14979892
redcarpet wrote:And British white immigration BY FORCE in colonies in the heyday of the British Empire too.

Immigration is bad if YOU do it! But if WE do it it's expanding civilisation and bringing up you savages to 'human beings' so shut up and don't get uppity & sing 'God Save the Queen'!

EDIT:

Also a very notorious lie; the Brexit Bus saying “We send the EU £350 million a week.” Except it’s not true. That figure fails to take account of Britain’s rebate – negotiated, incidentally, by the Brexiteers’ heroine, Margaret Thatcher – worth the best part of £100m each week. To say nothing of the money the EU sends back to the UK, mainly to help British farmers, which reduces the net weekly cost of EU membership to an estimated £160m or less.



Nonsense -

Redcarpet -
"Also a very notorious lie".

Nonsense - I would not call it a 'lie', it's probably "not true", which doesn't mean that it's a 'lie' in itself, rather, any reasonable person would say that it was 'incorrect', in any case, the actual figure has not been agreed because, like all EU.UK financial reports, they are dependent on 'actual out turns', which, even then, are subject to Treasury political manipulation & like the E.U where the budgets have not been signed off for twenty years are not subject to auditing from independent auditors.
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By Nonsense
#14979895
Rich wrote:I don't post nonsense. I certainly don't post nonsense.toUppercase. But I do read what I write. And yes that is what I meant to say, the Remain leadership, notably David Cameron had engaged in anti-EU lies. The whole basis of the referendum, that our EU membership required a fundamental renegotiation was a lie. The EU is constantly evolving, through a constant renegotiation of its members. The whole idea that Europe, whether its national politicians or its bureaucrats was ganging up on Britain was a lie.

Britain only appears to lack influence because Labour and Conservatives often have opposite priorities in EU negotiation, such as the social chapter, or politicians conceal their priorities such as bailing out the banks, getting Turkish EU membership and being a client state of Israel.


Nonsense - Well, I suggest you read that sentence again to see if it makes sense, it doesn't to me.

You seem to be obsessed by a single word, 'Lie', it seems everyone bar you is one. :roll: :hmm:

As for CAMERON or even THATCHER, well, the former I wouldn't trust, the latter, like the first, their politics I don't share.

IMHO, too much consideration is given by our politicians to 'foreigners' either here or there & not enough attention is given to the 'real' British people who have been relegated to the back of an ever lengthening list of political 'priorities'. Maybe this country needs it's own Donald TRUMP- without his mentality of course.
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By Beren
#14979911
Nonsense wrote:I would not call it a 'lie', it's probably "not true", which doesn't mean that it's a 'lie' in itself, rather, any reasonable person would say that it was 'incorrect'

I agree, it was utter bullshit rather than a lie.
By skinster
#14979959


snapdragon wrote:It's sad, but unsurprising, the way many young people like skinster have been seduced by Jeremy Corbyn's dream of socialism in one country for Britain. It can't possibly work and the likelihood of him being allowed to ruin Britain's economy the way he wants is virtually zero, anyway. ( I bloody hope so)


:lol:

But thanks for calling me young, I'm going to be 40 in 2021. :D
By snapdragon
#14980071
That sounds young to me, skinster! Still at least a couple of years under 40.

Anyway, thanks for posting the above. I don't have a twitter account and I enjoyed reading some of the comments.

Corbyn's groupalso elite and he made it clear today he supports brexit. He also made it clear he won't listen to what Lab in the country wants. He clearly thinks they will vote Labour if a donkey stood as a candidate. He's an imposter, he's not speaking for working families


Bang on, mate....except I think he might listen in the end - as long as his wealthy mates let him.
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By JohnRawls
#14980076
skinster wrote:https://twitter.com/josephharker/status/1084017372032311297



:lol:

But thanks for calling me young, I'm going to be 40 in 2021. :D


Although we often don't see eye to eye age is just a number Skinsterina. You are much younger in heart, mind and soul.

As for the Corbyn situation, as i said. As there are Brexiters that were unhappy with the direction of the country. There are also remainers in the same sense that are unhappy with the direction of the labour party. Denying both of the problems will not fix the situation actually. Yes, some of it might be based on lies or truths that you or i do not want to accept or can't support because we don't believe in them but still, this doesn't help the situation at all.

Brexit and current labour situation happened for a reason. There are many of them but the core of the issue is there: People are unhappy. The same way you and me are unhappy let's say on the issue of public healthcare or public education or social benefits that are being eroded slowly but surely in the past 20 years.
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By Nonsense
#14980079
'Remainers' inside or out of parliament ought to seriously examine their reactions to being a minority in a democratic decision, for it's clear that they exhibit great disrespect to the majority.

That is true of Theresa MAY, who is showing the greatest disrespect to the majority vote, by pretending that 'BREXIT' is a 'good' deal for this country & fulfills the election manifesto of which won the Tory Party the last election-it does neither.

One of the complaints of 'remain' whingers, is that "we were not told anything, or that we were lied to", I have to say that, anybody who believes what is said in the media by politicians or the BBC, needs their head examining, because they are naive in the extreme, akin to believing there is a 'god' because there are preachers.

That complaint of not being informed before the referendum, illustrates the depth of ignorance, not just of the general public, but, also of the 'remain' MP's who distort the issue with no hint of historical perspective, just a "me & my 5 minutes of 'fame' in the media".

If people really consider their lack of knowledge about what it all entails, just consider how iy was back in 1970, when the issue was hardly mentioned in the election manifesto & of course the REAL difference between then to 2016 is that they did(2016) have a REAL say in that decision.

Here (underlined) is what(in total)was said in the 1970 Tory Manifesto & if you are complaining now consider how little people or their views were even considered back then.

[b]
1970 Conservative Party Manifesto

A better tomorrow -

Our economy has expanded more slowly than that of any other comparable country in the world. Almost everywhere in Western Europe and North America the standard of living grows faster than in Britain. International experts are predicting that if these trends are allowed to continue Britain will soon be the poorest major country in the West.



Programme for a parliament -

These policies will strengthen Britain so that we can negotiate with the European Community confident in the knowledge that we can stand on our own if the price is too high.


(NONSENSE - The above sentence is the totality of the manifesto commitment, that is to "NEGOTIATE" with the then E.C-compare that to 2016.)

Steadier prices -

Under the last Conservative Government, wages rose twice as fast as prices, living standards rose three times as fast as they have under Labour, and Britain achieved one of the best records in Europe for steady prices.

A Stronger Britain in The World -

If we can negotiate the right terms, we believe that it would be in the long-term interest of the British people for Britain to join the European Economic Community, and that it would make a major contribution to both the prosperity and the security of our country. The opportunities are immense. Economic growth and a higher standard of living would result from having a larger market.

But we must also recognise the obstacles. There would be short-term disadvantages in Britain going into the European Economic Community which must be weighed against the long-term benefits. Obviously there is a price we would not be prepared to pay. Only when we negotiate will it be possible to determine whether the balance is a fair one, and in the interests of Britain.





That promise of increasing prosperity is\was, as always a FALSE PROSPECTUS foisted on the minds of the voter as a political 'carrot'' designed to dupe the gullible into being like turkeys voting for Christmas & the rest is history.
For those who also say that we will be 'poorer' OUT, rather than 'IN', the manifesto states the position of the time as here:

Under the last Conservative Government, wages rose twice as fast as prices, living standards rose three times as fast as they have under Labour, and Britain achieved one of the best records in Europe for steady prices.
....BUT..ONLY for the rich & better-off, of course, as usual, CRUCIALLY though...OUTSIDE OF THE E.C(E.U).

Again, for the younger(ill-informed) generation, this what the 1970's voters had to decide in the 1970 general election, on joining europe,"

These policies will strengthen Britain so that we can negotiate with the European Community confident in the knowledge that we can stand on our own if the price is too high.

Compare the above information to 2016, then reconsider your complaint about not having enough information, we decided to join, based on the above SINGLE SENTENCE IN AN ELECTION MANIFESTO, we never had a DIRECT SAY as in a REFERENDUM we never had 'remoaners' who wanted to stay out, that was confined within the political parties, the people & their views counted for little or nothing.
Last edited by Nonsense on 15 Jan 2019 13:09, edited 1 time in total.
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By JohnRawls
#14980086
What the fuck?

"The DUP has put out a statement saying the Andrew Murrison amendment, which says the withdrawal agreement should be amended “to specify that the backstop solution shall expire on 31 December 2021”, is not enough to make the deal acceptable to them"

Are you really going to change the deal to make it passable? This is not what you agreed with the EU. What the hell are you guys doing? Why are we having a negotiation in the first place if you are voting on something else and changing it to make it passible. You are not voting on the same deal as discussed with the EU :eh:
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By Nonsense
#14980088
JohnRawls wrote:What the fuck?



"The DUP has put out a statement saying the Andrew Murrison amendment, which says the withdrawal agreement should be amended “to specify that the backstop solution shall expire on 31 December 2021”, is not enough to make the deal acceptable to them"

Are you really going to change the deal to make it passable? This is not what you agreed with the EU. What the hell are you guys doing? Why are we having a negotiation in the first place if you are voting on something else and changing it to make it passible. You are not voting on the same deal as discussed with the EU :eh:



Nonsense -

I agree absolutely.

The Withdrawl Agreement is, 'signed, sealed, but, not yet delivered', as far as the E.U is concerned, there will be no 're-negotiations' on that agreement.

The ONLY possible 'alternative' is something that will only add to to it(Addendum), the original will remain inviolate.

The DUP, like all the MP's or individuals, who, for one reason or another dislike in part, or it's entirety the 'BREXIT'(Withdrawl Agreement), are opposing the 'Deal' because it is a 'Deal' that is worse than 'NO Deal'.
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By Nonsense
#14980092
I believe that Theresa MAY, forced by her own incompetence, as well as deceit as a 'remainer', being compelled by the process of political logic, to fulfill the the ligitimate mandate that the people gave the government, to deliver 'LEAVE' on 29 March 2019-'Deal' or NO Deal'.

There never was, nor could there be, a 'Deal', based upon future trading with europe, or the settlement of 'liabilities' as per divorce arrangements, to be settled collectively in parallel with each other, collectively AKA 'BREXIT'.

The area's of matters relating to the above should have been arranged separately with europe & NOT on the basis of being contingent on concluding everything under a, "NOTHING' is agreed until EVERYTHING is agreed' form, because 'everything' is simply NOT agreed.

The above gives each side the opportunity to engage in a political game, both in the U.K & in Europe.

That's why we have this nonsense over 'BREXIT', which, effectively, is what encapsulates the game of deceit to frustrate the people's decision.

The LAW is that we LEAVE on 29th March 2019, for which it will be 'signed, sealed & delivered', the rest will be history, with just the 'reckoning' with the voters at the coming election to be settled & it will be.
By Rich
#14980107
First off when I call the leading Brexiteers liars I'm not insulting them, the real insult would be to suggest that they were stupid or ignorant enough to actually believe the guff they put out. I have of course lied in my personal life, but whether its personal life or politics, I haven't got time to waste on what particular statements were technically false, when people seek to mislead they almost inevitably make a false statement, but who really cares if they didn't? How much time was wasted on bill Clinton's bull shit, when in fact he initiated full intercourse with Monica Lewinsky?

Now of course lying is common in polititcs and if an issue is important then its important enough to lie about. But lies still have consequence. So I supported the noble and righteous, removal of Saddam. I was honest, I said Sadddam is never going to get nuclear weapons. I was quite comfortable about Blair and Bush lying about WMD, but I was prepared to accept the consequences that it would make inv\ding places in the future a lot harder.
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By Beren
#14980114
I also considered mentioning Clinton's lies about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky as a typical case of lying. :lol:
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By Nonsense
#14980125
Or! you could be like John MAJOR aping Bill CLINTON vis-a-viz Edwina Currie. :lol: :lol: :lol:, I did have sexual relations with that woman.

Well, he would say that wouldn't he, I mean, who else, other than a necrophilliac or an extremely inebriated blind, stupid, desperate individual would go to that extreme, I mean, he is as grey & expressionless as a statue. :lol: :lol:
Last edited by Nonsense on 15 Jan 2019 15:31, edited 1 time in total.
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