EU-BREXIT - Page 202 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in Europe's nation states, the E.U. & Russia.

Moderator: PoFo Europe Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum, so please post in English only.
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#15014800
Nonsense wrote:The E.U must be aligning itself to Third World status once the U.K extricates itself from their clutches.

Twenty years to agree a trade deal with a Third Country, yet the E.U cannot even reform itself & deliver it's pre-ambit of improving the lives of everyone in it's clutches. :hmm:
Obviously, the wheels of Brussels turn exceedingly slowly, the Brazilian rainforest will disappear to make way for profits to a few rich, corrupt Brazillian politicians & cheaper coffee for the eurocrats.

The global direction is turning against globalisation, in which 'rules' are disregarded whenever it's convenient, unless you are an E.U member & are then severely penalised.
'Deals' are a double-edged sword, if migration is part of the deal, then populism will continue to expand within europe, whilst we in the U.K do not need to agree deals that involve unbalanced migration between the countries involved.

It remains to be seen whether, in the light of PUTIN's comments against all forms of 'Liberalism', if the E.U dig an even deeper hole for themselves, if they do, the U.K will become even more entrenched against any future attempts at rejoining europe.

As for internationalist Labour, they have virtually spent any political capital that they had banked against Tory policies , their policies are ridiculous in the extreme & they are truly economically illiterate.
The U.K has plenty of friendly countries in which deals can be made, so our future is better than many can imagine right now, the pessimist always point out clouds on the horizon, the optimist will look for the sunshine between those clouds. :up:


"Liberalism" is dead says Putin with a stagnating economy 1/20th the size of the EU while we keep growing and signing deals. How is it going for him with most of the ex-USSR republics actually wanting to join the EU instead of the Russian shit hole... :lol:
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15014805
JohnRawls wrote:"Liberalism" is dead says Putin with a stagnating economy 1/20th the size of the EU while we keep growing and signing deals. How is it going for him with most of the ex-USSR republics actually wanting to join the EU instead of the Russian shit hole... :lol:



While the E.U, the U.S need to make deals elsewhere, Russia doesn't need to, it's practically self-sufficient, it's a vast country with enormous unexploited natural resources besides huge oil reserves.
The former USSR countries are thinking short-term, particularly in the political sense,considering the size of the task post war, it has come along way, the people are happier in many respects than westerners with their unjustified sense of entitlements & social divisions.
User avatar
By Beren
#15014806
JohnRawls wrote:"Liberalism" is dead says Putin with a stagnating economy 1/20th the size of the EU while we keep growing and signing deals. How is it going for him with most of the ex-USSR republics actually wanting to join the EU instead of the Russian shit hole... :lol:

Putin must be sore about the results of the EP-election much, without either Europe or Russia changing course and developing partnership his legacy will be a failure. I'm not an expert on Russian history, but his course is pretty much like that of Nicholas I was.

Image
Which led to the October Revolution and the end of the Russian Empire basically, although the next Russian revolution won't be led by Bolsheviks most likely.
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#15014811
Nonsense wrote:While the E.U, the U.S need to make deals elsewhere, Russia doesn't need to, it's practically self-sufficient, it's a vast country with enormous unexploited natural resources besides huge oil reserves.
The former USSR countries are thinking short-term, particularly in the political sense,considering the size of the task post war, it has come along way, the people are happier in many respects than westerners with their unjustified sense of entitlements & social divisions.


Do you even talk with average Russians in Russia? I do. They are not representatives of all Russia because they live in Moscow mostly but I can tell you one thing. Nowadays Putin is a meme inside the country. Everyone understands that the country is basically fucked unless the country changes course and deals with its corruption and administrative issues.

But regarding your autarky claims. Well, theoretically yes but practically Russia is not self-sufficient unless you want to cut down on most modern tech which Russia doesn't know how to produce. Sure it can make rockets and tanks but the average joe in the country doesn't drive a tank, use a military radio to communicate etc. In reality Russian populations living standards are stagnating at best or falling at worst after the Ukranian situation. There was a big decline in general but its not getting better.

The usual mantra of "BUT PUTIN SAVED US FROM THE 90s" is not working anymore. Why? Well what is the point of stability for the sake of stability right now if it doesn't produce economic growth, increased standard of living or anything beneficial to the people....
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#15014813
Beren wrote:Putin must be sore about the results of the EP-election much, without either Europe or Russia changing course and developing partnership his legacy will be a failure. I'm not an expert on Russian history, but his course is pretty much like that of Nicholas I was.

Image
Which led to the October Revolution and the end of the Russian Empire basically, although the next Russian revolution won't be led by Bolsheviks most likely.


I mean to a degree you can make the comparison but only to a degree. Russia prospers when i has a good relationship with Europe or dominates Europe. Since 2nd part is out of the question then the only choice is part one.

If Russia keeps doing what it is doing now then by 2050 its economic weight will be the same as Thailand right now. This is not some bogus claim that i take out of nowhere but analysis that was done by Russian analysts and economists.

Right now Russia is basically on the course of Stability for stability sake. This can't last forever while most of the world is moving forward. Russian politics/economy will crack at some point because of this and then they will have to decide what to do. It will be obviously more painful than doing it now because they will have less to work with. But the mighty Putin and Co are afraid that if they do economic, administrative, corruption reforms right now then they might either fuck it up(like in the 90s) or just loose their heads because ultimately they are the corruption.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15014818
JohnRawls wrote:Do you even talk with average Russians in Russia? I do. They are not representatives of all Russia because they live in Moscow mostly but I can tell you one thing. Nowadays Putin is a meme inside the country. Everyone understands that the country is basically fucked unless the country changes course and deals with its corruption and administrative issues.

But regarding your autarky claims. Well, theoretically yes but practically Russia is not self-sufficient unless you want to cut down on most modern tech which Russia doesn't know how to produce. Sure it can make rockets and tanks but the average joe in the country doesn't drive a tank, use a military radio to communicate etc. In reality Russian populations living standards are stagnating at best or falling at worst after the Ukranian situation. There was a big decline in general but its not getting better.

The usual mantra of "BUT PUTIN SAVED US FROM THE 90s" is not working anymore. Why? Well what is the point of stability for the sake of stability right now if it doesn't produce economic growth, increased standard of living or anything beneficial to the people....



Russia is not alone when it comes to corruption, it's neighbour the Ukraine is probably just as corrupt, if not more so, indeed, it's only kept afloat by western taxpayers money & many western countries score only marginally above the worst.

As for living standards, the E.U, like the U.K has large populations excluded from better living standards,a result of deliberate government austerity policies that fiscal measures are the tool that increases the divisions between poverty or affluence in the relative sense.

Our so-called democracies cannot take the high ground in lecturing other states in the running of their economies, the E.U is hardly democratic in reality, because it's a superstate with an incestuous relationship with business that exerts it's corrupting influence over it's affairs, that happens in the U.K also
& it makes democracy irrelevent to most people.
User avatar
By Beren
#15014820
Nonsense wrote:Russia is not alone when it comes to corruption, it's neighbour the Ukraine is probably just as corrupt, if not more so

Ukraine has belonged to Russia for centuries and they're almost identical culturally, so their corruption is almost identical too, although it may be worse in Ukraine because it's a periphery.

How come you're so pro-Russian, by the way?
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#15014822
Nonsense wrote:Russia is not alone when it comes to corruption, it's neighbour the Ukraine is probably just as corrupt, if not more so, indeed, it's only kept afloat by western taxpayers money & many western countries score only marginally above the worst.

As for living standards, the E.U, like the U.K has large populations excluded from better living standards,a result of deliberate government austerity policies that fiscal measures are the tool that increases the divisions between poverty or affluence in the relative sense.

Our so-called democracies cannot take the high ground in lecturing other states in the running of their economies, the E.U is hardly democratic in reality, because it's a superstate with an incestuous relationship with business that exerts it's corrupting influence over it's affairs, that happens in the U.K also
& it makes democracy irrelevent to most people.



I mean what can i say. You consider Western Europe to be almost as corrupt as Russia/Ukraine etc. It is your opinion. I can only say that its wrong. The corruption in countries like Romania, Greece or Hungary are much less than in Russia and Ukraine in my opinion not to mention many other places in the EU.

As for comparing democracies in Russia with Europe... Again, this is your opinion. If you believe that any country in the EU or the EU itself is almost on the same level as Russia democracy wise then it is your unpopular opinion. Again I will heavily disagree.

I won't even bother going in to details because i find your argument absurdly incorrect for whatever reason. I won't change your mind.

As for lecturing other states. I mean Putin said that "Liberalism" is dead or i am missing something? Tusk responded to his bullshit.
By B0ycey
#15014893
Beren wrote:How come you're so pro-Russian, by the way?


He is Pro-Russian because like every Right-Wing disillusionist they have a white supremacists nationalist patriotism you can find in Putins words and they tend to ignore the economic reality of those words when looking at Russia as a whole.

Brexit will reverse the UK economy like Ukraine did for Russia although Russia can be self sufficient and I praise Russia for operating in a way without the need for any form of debt which makes isolation possible for them. The UK on the otherhand can look forward to little outside investment in the future resulting in the government unable to borrow and as such Nonsense can look forward to a cut in his pension along with a reduction in public services.

As for Putin and his "Liberalism is obsolete" words, his words actually don't reflect a problem with Liberalism but Capitalism. Liberalism will likely rise and flourish in the West as people prefer to live in a Liberal society and the freedoms that come from that. However extention of an ever growing population and the contradiction of that within Dialectical Materialism means that this is the only way to sustain growth and profit in Capitalism, and sooner or later the thread will break and people will discover their class distinction and form new governments that operate for unity and fairness on class. In other words with more liberty. So the problem has never been that your neighbour has another race or religion to you but your bourgeois neighbour extorts your surplus labor and drives down your labor price by flooding the market with competition for you. And that Joe Poor blames the competition for this occuring rather than the ones who benefit from it.
By B0ycey
#15014938


New poll suggests #JoinJo gains real moment. Corbyn is dead weight. Remainers need to back this lady if she wins the Lib Dem race and she is favourite to do so. Coupled with an almost certain Boris victory, Tory MPs need not worry about a Corbyn government any more and actually support a confidence bid against BoJos Hard Brexit - if anything just so we can end the Brexit impasse.
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#15014947
B0ycey wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/joswinson/status/1144632453581217793?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

New poll suggests #JoinJo gains real moment. Corbyn is dead weight. Remainers need to back this lady if she wins the Lib Dem race and she is favourite to do so. Coupled with an almost certain Boris victory, Tory MPs need not worry about a Corbyn government any more and actually support a confidence bid against BoJos Hard Brexit - if anything just so we can end the Brexit impasse.


Would be awesome if all remainers defect to lib dems while Bojo, Brexit and Labour consolidate Brexiters. Brexit would be possible under such conditions. Obviously some will remain in labour/tories etc but they would be an inconsequential minorities. So Brexit with no deal will become possible. Deluding either remain or leave pools a bit make Brexit or removal of Brexit possible. You just need to shuffle votes around a bit in the parliament. If you manage to margianalise 25% of remain or leave and put full brunt of the other side in play then an outcome is possible.

It heavily depends who stays in the Tories. If you assume Bojo still in charge and mostly Brexiters then it is possible. But if you consider that most might move to Brexit party while Tory will become also more pro-remain than the opposite is possible. (Cancellation of Brexit)
By B0ycey
#15014953
JohnRawls wrote:Would be awesome if all remainers defect to lib dems while Bojo, Brexit [and Labour] consolidate Brexiters.


The thing is, this lady is the real deal. Saw the poll yesterday, researched her more and watched her hustings. And she is good. Like really good. Perhaps an actual face for Remain to get around. She looks like a nice confident lady who actually is a likeable MP.

If she wins the leadership battle and is put on mainstream TV more she will take away remain votes from Labour (and the Greens) that I am sure of. Way more than Davey could - who acts like just another weasel MP.

Whilst the Tories are trying to slay Corbyn - who may or may not be healthy enough to fight a general election if the reports are to believed, as things stand the Lib Dems will be top dogs come October where I am pretty sure we'll be in another GE when MPs stop Johnsons Hard Brexit in the only way they can.
By BML
#15014962
Some of these statements on. "This lady" provoke thoughts of utter contempt for the electorate who's short memories block out the results of the Libs support of the Tory government with its despicable austerity policies and the broken promise on students loans. They are a political joke.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15014963
JohnRawls wrote:I mean what can i say. You consider Western Europe to be almost as corrupt as Russia/Ukraine etc. It is your opinion. I can only say that its wrong. The corruption in countries like Romania, Greece or Hungary are much less than in Russia and Ukraine in my opinion not to mention many other places in the EU.

As for comparing democracies in Russia with Europe... Again, this is your opinion. If you believe that any country in the EU or the EU itself is almost on the same level as Russia democracy wise then it is your unpopular opinion. Again I will heavily disagree.

I won't even bother going in to details because i find your argument absurdly incorrect for whatever reason. I won't change your mind.

As for lecturing other states. I mean Putin said that "Liberalism" is dead or i am missing something? Tusk responded to his bullshit.



Well, if I am expressing my opinion, which you say is 'wrong', that is a statement, as opposed to your opinion,which I disagree with.

There is such a thing as the International Public Sector Corruption Index, unfortunately it is not current, but on it's last published report in 2010,since when, much could have changed, Russia was perceived as being rated at 2.1(lower is rated higher in perceived corruption) & Ukraine is rated at 2.4.

Politicians - businessmen do not advertise their underhandedness anywhere, the absense of evidence,although not indicative either way, is not evidence of a clean sheet.
We know of many big businesses that operate as cartels,organised to profit from markets or consumers in one way or another & many have been exposed in europe.
The VW emissions scandal is just one such incidence, the utility companies in the U.K may have the back of the Tories, but they have for too long fleeced the public by acting as cartels in raising prices to customers against the long term trend of lower wholesale market cost, they also manipulate their prices through Standing Charge 'adjustment's vs unit cost prices.

The energy regulators are in on the scams themselves, because the whole system is a government-business stitch up against consumers, with the phoney 'regulators' planted in between companies & consumers as a sop to public concerns.

As the Corruption Index indicates, it's all about perception & the public are ignorant about how businesses operate.

PUTIN was correct in what he said, even if you disagree with it, doesn't make it wrong, he, unlike european politicians, sees things in their context as an outside observer, people on the inside, never do see the reality, to them, the foggy bubble that they occupy seems completely normal, just as things appear to non-Russians, athough western perceptions of Russians have changed in the last few years after seeing it for themselves in sporting events.

That changed perception of Russia must disappoint conservative political propagandist,because when people see the reality, the choke-hold of brainwashing propaganda by those interested in divisions, is completely neutered.
By B0ycey
#15014968
BML wrote:Some of these statements on. "This lady" provoke thoughts of utter contempt for the electorate who's short memories block out the results of the Libs support of the Tory government with its despicable austerity policies and the broken promise on students loans. They are a political joke.


Well they were part of a coalition and in a financial crisis so I don't know what people expect. You cannot fulfil all manifesto promises in a coalition, that is just how it is.

Nonetheless the Lib Dems have and are paying the political penalty for going against their stance on tuition fees and would probably be the major party today if they hadn't have done so FYI. Nonetheless today is all about Brexit and they are the party for remain. Get any form of power in the next election and they can change their image can't they. And Swinson is a great face for a new change.
User avatar
By Kaiserschmarrn
#15015012
noemon wrote:John did not say "supermajority referendums" such a thing does not even exist in constitutional practice I believe, he said supermajorities which refers to parliamentary supermajorities and most(as far as I'm aware of) EU countries joined the EEC/EU with parliamentary supermajorities indeed.

That makes sense.

noemon wrote:Britain did not have a supermajority in 1972 as Labour whipped its MP's against the EEC Treaty. Regardless, it is not just fair but also politically rational & necessary for such major changes in the structure of a state to require extended majorities aka supermajorities in order to designate the decision final and bring the nation together towards that goal, otherwise division & bitterness can result in undermining the decision thus rendering the whole project futile but also causing deep political and economic issues, situations that are currently unraveling before our eyes in Britain and which very likely trace their origins back to that initial lack of a supermajority in Britain as well.

I agree that it can be a good safety mechanism, although I regard the fact that popular consent to join the EEC was taken to mean consent to the developing political union as far more consequential. There's a deep and long-standing skepticism in Britain regarding political integration and an ambivalent and often opposed populace has been dragged along without consultation.

JohnRawls wrote:@Kaiserschmarrn @noemon
What i meant by super-majority is definitely related to the parliament.

Cheers. I misread what you were saying.

JohnRawls wrote:Just to annoy Brexiters a bit. Link:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48807161

Basically we in the EU are striking long negotiated trade deals. :excited: How is life UK? Tariffs will go down and perhaps disappear over time. Mercosur market is open for us and we can compete for government contracts :excited: Like the alt-right say: GOT EM BOYZZZZ!

When will the political union with Mercosur be announced?
By skinster
#15015128
B0ycey wrote:...Corbyn - who may or may not be healthy enough to fight a general election if the reports are to believed...


The reports coming from Rupert Murdoch's press are not to be believed, just more anti-Corbyn desperation from this guy who looks like he's about to die any moment now.


BML wrote:Some of these statements on. "This lady" provoke thoughts of utter contempt for the electorate who's short memories block out the results of the Libs support of the Tory government with its despicable austerity policies and the broken promise on students loans. They are a political joke.


Yup, they are. Privileged remoaners only care about Brexit, nothing else that affect the working class (and homeless) in this country.
By SolarCross
#15015130
In fairness Corbyn here doesn't seem in bad nick for a coffin dodger in his final years.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48813656

However unless we get an early general election then the earliest he might be PM will be 2022. In 2022 he will be around 73 years old...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... dom_by_age

That would make him the oldest PM in British history beating out Viscount Palmerston who was 70 years old when becoming PM in 1855.

Even if the fears for his health are premature it is not an unreasonable thing to wonder if someone that old is suitable for such a potentially stressful job. Once blokes get into their 70s rapid decline is more or less inevitable.

It also makes me wonder why the Marxist-Islamist alliance can't field a younger infiltrator? Why use a cold war fossil in the 21st century? :?:
By B0ycey
#15015139
SolarCross wrote:However unless we get an early general election then the earliest he might be PM will be 2022. In 2022 he will be around 73 years old...


Well Trump is 73. Although really Corbyn in his 70s is less senile than both Trump today and as it happens Johnson in his 50s if the bus interview episode is anything to go on.

Swinson > Corbyn > anybody normal > Johnson > Farage

Age means nothing if you're shit at your job.
By SolarCross
#15015144
B0ycey wrote:Well Trump is 73. Although really Corbyn in his 70s is less senile than both Trump today and as it happens Johnson in his 50s if the bus interview episode is anything to go on.

Swinson > Corbyn > anybody normal > Johnson > Farage

Age means nothing if you're shit at your job.


Trump is probably too old for the job but despite that he is doing well so far. Given Corbyn is a conscious traitor and enemy infiltrator it would probably be safer if he was senile. As for Boris you simply don't understand the UK culture at all if you think there is something especially bizarre about having a creative hobby.

I can't comment on Swinson as she is a nobody but since her only claim to fame is imitating Boris's campaign, #JoinJo is on obvious imitation of #BackBoris, then she is a obviously a natural born follower not a leader.
  • 1
  • 200
  • 201
  • 202
  • 203
  • 204
  • 305
Ukrainegate

As the special adviser on Europe and Russia for Vi[…]

Morons judge people they never met. Everyone jud[…]

Do you have anything to offer on this subject ? […]

You people really cannot get anything right :lol[…]