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By Presvias
#15041055
Image

:)

@Nonsense

I think if the Scots voted remain, they shouldn't really be subjected to this. Can't see the logic behind that personally. I tend to be quite republican even tho I don't hate the monarchy per se, and believe in maximum devolution and local control

And yes, thats the 'other' forum I was ref'ing.. they've banned me 3-4 times previously. :lol:
User avatar
By ingliz
#15041069
Nonsense wrote:a 'rabbit' lurking there

Johnson dumps the DUP and gives the nationalists a veto on leaving the SM/CU. Border in the Irish Sea.

Job done.

But will it be ratified in a 'remainer' parliament? The revised Political Declaration paves the way to a brexit harder than May's.


:lol:
Last edited by ingliz on 10 Oct 2019 20:32, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Beren
#15041071
ingliz wrote:But will it pass parliament?

It seems the final blame will be on them, so let's have a general election! :excited:
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15041089
ingliz wrote:Johnson dumps the DUP and gives the nationalists a veto on leaving the SM/CU. Border in the Irish Sea.

Job done.

But will it be ratified in a 'remainer' parliament? The revised Political Declaration paves the way to a brexit harder than May's.


:lol:


BoJo will never dump the DUP,he depends on their support in parliament.

The situation is much more serious for the republic of Ireland than it is for the North, who could rely on Westminster support, as indicated in an earlier post, the republic could, potentially, be facing a meltdown, which is why I posed the 'eating grass' question.

I don't believe that any deal should involve a power of veto on either side, a 'soft' deal on the border-customs issue, is a 'win-win' all round for the E.U,U.K & both sides in Ireland.
The question of ratification plays to the Tories advantage, they only need to present it to parliament, with the statement that they will agree & ratify any agreement made now-after an election if necessary-should parliament not agree by passing the deal.

CORBYN,SWINSON,along with the rest of the political detritus will be dealt with in the election to come, their kamikase tactics will have failed miserably & the country will move along, business as usual.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15041093
Presvias wrote:Image

:)

@Nonsense

I think if the Scots voted remain, they shouldn't really be subjected to this. Can't see the logic behind that personally. I tend to be quite republican even tho I don't hate the monarchy per se, and believe in maximum devolution and local control

And yes, thats the 'other' forum I was ref'ing.. they've banned me 3-4 times previously. :lol:


I don't blame individual Scots, rather, it's the people who represent them, the SNP, the people might deliver a shock to the SNP post Brexit, we shall have to wait & see.

I personally don't use the other forum now,haven't for a couple of years at least, the 'admins' don't really accept the views of people who think differently to them & they can be too ascerbic for my taste.
This forum is much,much better in my opinion, some people do care enough to make regular comments for debate, I don't think admins should impose their final judgement's on what is right or wrong, particularly when events are often fluid by nature.

Admins on this forum are more elastic, less hardball in waving 'red' cards at users, I think that posters are mature enough to adjust to & live with someone else's views when reason is the main force in debate.

Anyway, getting 3-4 'medals' on such sites is an honor in some quarters,so wear it with some pride. :lol: :lol:

Your views are not that different my own, decentralising power from the centre,back to where it belongs locally, the closer to the electorate, the better it is.

It's for the above reason that I think Labour are wrong on europe, I mean, it was Labour themselves that introduced devolution, so why would they want more power at the centre, in Brussels?
It's why IMHO, I think that europe has to rewind back to Maastricht & rewrite the Treaties agreed since then.

Were they to do so, europe might just last for the duration,just possibly, my opinion is that large structures will fail, often spectacularly,regretfully, not always peacefully.
User avatar
By BeesKnee5
#15041169
Nonsense wrote:
BoJo will never dump the DUP,he depends on their support in parliament.

The situation is much more serious for the republic of Ireland than it is for the North, who could rely on Westminster support, as indicated in an earlier post, the republic could, potentially, be facing a meltdown, which is why I posed the 'eating grass' question.

I don't believe that any deal should involve a power of veto on either side, a 'soft' deal on the border-customs issue, is a 'win-win' all round for the E.U,U.K & both sides in Ireland.
The question of ratification plays to the Tories advantage, they only need to present it to parliament, with the statement that they will agree & ratify any agreement made now-after an election if necessary-should parliament not agree by passing the deal.

CORBYN,SWINSON,along with the rest of the political detritus will be dealt with in the election to come, their kamikase tactics will have failed miserably & the country will move along, business as usual.


I don't think BoJo cares about the DUP for a minute, they are no longer enough to give a majority and so the focus is winning an election.

From the moment he got into power it's been about an election rather than Brexit. Removing those from the party who won't tow the line and positioning yourself as the man of the people thwarted by the evil EU, courts, parliament. Brexit is a tool being used by an ambitious man

Once he has won his election then he can do what he likes and have five years to deal with the fall out. Even if parliament has demanded an extension to avoid no deal.
By Rich
#15041184
Nonsense wrote:I don't blame individual Scots, rather, it's the people who represent them, the SNP,

Ha, the Brexiteers have used exactly the same popularist strategy as the SNP and the Provos /Sinn Fein, basing themselves on the most manual working class, under class, deprived areas. Look at UKIP/ Brexit Party bastions they're almost identical to the run down estates of Glasgow where the SNP have their highest levels of support or the Catholic ghettos of Northern Ireland which were ruled by the IRA. They're also not totally dissimilar to the lower class North Ireland Protestant areas where the DUP and the UDA have dominated.

I'm not outraged by the Brexiteers playing dirty, politics is by its nature a dirty game. No I'm outraged by their hypocritical, narcissistic self entitlement. They think that they're entitled to play dirty but we're not. They seek to inflame the situation by talk of betrayal and collaboration with the enemy. So let me make this clear to the Brexiteers, you are the enemy!

Or to be slightly more precise and prosaic, my current priority is to stop Brexit, to delay and disrupt, in-order hopefully to in the end revoke. An end goal that I have never sought to hide. So currently Brexit is the enemy so to speak, but if the Brexiteers lies are successful and they manage to get us to leave and there is no realistic hope of rejoining, then my priority is vengeance. The Brexiteers have long sought an independent United Kingdom. Well then my goal would be to ensure there no longer was a United Kingdom.

in the light of what I've just said, you Brexiteers might want to wonder what the real agenda of your new found friends Claire Fox and Brendan O'Neil is.
By Atlantis
#15041196
The de-industrialization of the UK economy is closely linked to Brexit. It has produced the discontent in the de-industrialized regions that made people vote for Brexit. Another interesting aspect, highlighted in the below article. is that the British state has become disengaged from industry since most of it has either been off-shored or is foreign owned.

Brexit is a necessary crisis – it reveals Britain’s true place in the world

A determined ignorance of the dynamics of global capitalism is bringing about a long-overdue audit of British realities

Who backs Brexit? Agriculture is against it; industry is against it; services are against it. None of them, needless to say, support a no-deal Brexit. Yet the Conservative party, which favoured European union for economic reasons over many decades, has become not only Eurosceptic – it is set on a course regarded by every reputable capitalist state and the great majority of capitalist enterprises as deeply foolish.

If any prime minister in the past had shown such a determined ignorance of the dynamics of global capitalism, the massed ranks of British capital would have stepped in to force a change of direction. Yet today, while the CBI and the Financial Times call for the softest possible Brexit, the Tory party is no longer listening.

Why not? One answer is that the Tories now represent the interests of a small section of capitalists who actually fund the party. An extreme version of this argument was floated by the prime minister’s sister, Rachel, and the former chancellor Philip Hammond – both of whom suggested that hard Brexit is being driven by a corrupt relationship between the prime minister and his hedge-fund donors, who have shorted the pound and the whole economy. This is very unlikely to be correct, but it may point to a more disconcerting truth.

The fact is that the capitalists who do support Brexit tend to be very loosely tied to the British economy. This is true of hedge funds, of course – but also true for manufacturers such as Sir James Dyson, who no longer produces in the UK. The owners of several Brexiter newspapers are foreign, or tax resident abroad – as is the pro-Brexit billionaire Sir James Ratcliffe of Ineos.

But the real story is something much bigger. What is interesting is not so much the connections between capital and the Tory party but their increasing disconnection. Today much of the capital in Britain is not British and not linked to the Conservative party – where for most of the 20th century things looked very different. Once, great capitalists with national, imperial and global interests sat in the Commons and the Lords as Liberals or Conservatives. Between the wars, the Conservatives emerged as the one party of capital, led by great British manufacturers such as Stanley Baldwin and Neville Chamberlain. The Commons and the Lords were soon fuller than ever of Tory businessmen, from the owner of Meccano toys to that of Lyons Corner Houses.

After the second world war, such captains of industry avoided the Commons, but the Conservative party was without question the party of capital and property, one which stood against the party of organised labour. Furthermore, the Tories represented an increasingly national capitalism, protected by import controls, and closely tied to an interventionist and technocratic state that wanted to increase exports of British designed and made goods. A company like Imperial Chemical Industries (ICI) saw itself, and indeed was, a national champion. British industry, public and private, was a national enterprise.

Since the 1970s things have changed radically. Today there is no such thing as British national capitalism. London is a place where world capitalism does business – no longer one where British capitalism does the world’s business. Everywhere in the UK there are foreign-owned enterprises, many of them nationalised industries, building nuclear reactors and running train services from overseas. When the car industry speaks, it is not as British industry but as foreign enterprise in the UK. The same is true of many of the major manufacturing sectors – from civil aircraft to electrical engineering – and of infrastructure. Whatever the interests of foreign capital, they are not expressed through a national political party. Most of these foreign-owned businesses, not surprisingly, are hostile to Brexit.

Brexit is the political project of the hard right within the Conservative party, and not its capitalist backers. In fact, these forces were able to take over the party in part because it was no longer stabilised by a powerful organic connection to capital, either nationally or locally.

Brexit also speaks to the weakness of the state, which was itself once tied to the governing party – and particularly the Conservatives. The British state once had the capacity to change the United Kingdom and its relations to the rest of the world radically and quickly, as happened in the second world war, and indeed on accession to the common market.

Today the process from referendum to implementation will take, if it happens, nearly as long as the whole second world war. The modern British state has distanced itself from the productive economy and is barely able to take an expert view of the complexities of modern capitalism. This was painfully clear in the Brexit impact sectoral reports the government was forced to publish – they were internet cut-and-paste jobs.

The state can no longer undertake the radical planning and intervention that might make Brexit work. That would require not only an expert state, but one closely aligned with business. The preparations would by now be very visible at both technical and political levels. But we have none of that. Instead we have the suggestion that nothing much will happen on no deal, that mini-deals will appear. The real hope of the Brexiters is surely that the EU will cave and carry on trading with the UK as if nothing had changed. Brexit is a promise without a plan. But in the real world Brexit does mean Brexit, and no deal means no deal.

Brexit is a necessary crisis, and has provided a long overdue audit of British realities. It exposes the nature of the economy, the new relations of capitalism to politics and the weakness of the state. It brings to light, in stunning clarity, Brexiters’ deluded political understanding of the UK’s place in the world. From a new understanding, a new politics of national improvement might come; without it we will remain stuck in the delusional, revivalist politics of a banana monarchy.

User avatar
By Beren
#15041227
The Guardian suggests BoJo would go an NI-only backstop for an orderly Brexit, although he should push it down the ERG's throat as well as he should command a parliamentary majority without the DUP I guess.

Edit: He may even have the DUP in the bag.

User avatar
By JohnRawls
#15041248
Beren wrote:The Guardian suggests BoJo would go an NI-only backstop for an orderly Brexit, although he should push it down the ERG's throat as well as he should command a parliamentary majority without the DUP I guess.

Edit: He may even have the DUP in the bag.



So this is basically Mays deal 2.0 with a difference that NI is treated as part of the customs union instead of the whole UK. This has been discussed by May quadrillion times and EU is fine with it. The problem is that your parliament won't let you pass it. Even with the DUP support(Hey DUP, i don't mean to sound rude here but weren't you against this when May was around?), most of the parties are against putting a border between NI and UK.

Also does that mean Scotland and Gibraltar can get the same arrengement? The argument was that if NI gets it then SNP and probably Gibraltar will request the same. How short some peoples memories are...
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15041268
Rich wrote:Ha, the Brexiteers have used exactly the same popularist strategy as the SNP and the Provos /Sinn Fein, basing themselves on the most manual working class, under class, deprived areas. Look at UKIP/ Brexit Party bastions they're almost identical to the run down estates of Glasgow where the SNP have their highest levels of support or the Catholic ghettos of Northern Ireland which were ruled by the IRA. They're also not totally dissimilar to the lower class North Ireland Protestant areas where the DUP and the UDA have dominated.

I'm not outraged by the Brexiteers playing dirty, politics is by its nature a dirty game. No I'm outraged by their hypocritical, narcissistic self entitlement. They think that they're entitled to play dirty but we're not. They seek to inflame the situation by talk of betrayal and collaboration with the enemy. So let me make this clear to the Brexiteers, you are the enemy!

Or to be slightly more precise and prosaic, my current priority is to stop Brexit, to delay and disrupt, in-order hopefully to in the end revoke. An end goal that I have never sought to hide. So currently Brexit is the enemy so to speak, but if the Brexiteers lies are successful and they manage to get us to leave and there is no realistic hope of rejoining, then my priority is vengeance. The Brexiteers have long sought an independent United Kingdom. Well then my goal would be to ensure there no longer was a United Kingdom.

in the light of what I've just said, you Brexiteers might want to wonder what the real agenda of your new found friends Claire Fox and Brendan O'Neil is.



IMHO Rich, I think that you have lost the argument, you never miss an opportunity to call anyone wanting to leave the E.U 'Liar's',despite the democratic vote to do so & your post always indicate your own personal agenda.

Both CORBYN,as well as John McDonnell are expected to resign from the political fallout of Labour's behaviour over leaving the E.U if they lose the coming election in the months ahead & their dismal poll ratings point to that as a probable scenario.

That is a consequence of betraying the people that pinned their hopes on them to pry the Tories out of office, but, for which CORBYN capitulated to the 'remain' BLAIRITE camp within the party, rather than accept the democratic referendum result, decided to put those people to the back of the queue when it came to priorities.

The consequences are not going to be confined to Labour alone,they will extend across the political spectrum of U.K politics no matter what the eventual outcome of the talks underway.

The realisation must come one day for yourself to acknowledge,like the country will, that we need to move on to create a country that is fair & just to all.

The day after we leave is only the first day of the new beginning for the country, As CHURCHILL said after Rommell's defeat in Egypt, " Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning".

For the country, it is a new beginning, bound only by the limitations of people's imagination's in cleaving a future for themselves, the country & the environment that we occupy.

As always, problems are stored up no matter what party has held power, which need to be addressed by the 'new' government, that is always the political narrative in such situations, delivery is a different matter.

I never share your negativity, it's not something that anyone cares to debate on, IMHO ,it is purely an attitude, born out of frustration or anxiety, arising from some form of prejudice in my opinion.
By Atlantis
#15041430
JohnRawls wrote:So this is basically Mays deal 2.0 with a difference that NI is treated as part of the customs union instead of the whole UK.


No, that's the initial EU proposal which provided for a backstop for NI only. May first agreed and then made a U-turn because of the DUP. The EU then agreed to include the whole of the UK in the backstop as a concession to the UK.
User avatar
By Beren
#15041445
Atlantis wrote: :lol: , Brits will be Brits.

It's Britishness that is fading away actually. The whole concept and (the Kingdom of) Great Britain itself were invented to enhance English imperialism as British imperialism, however, with the complete and irrevocable end of the project the idea, as well as the UK, became an obsolete and no longer pertinent liability to the English, the English ruling class especially, ripe for dissolution. They realised they'd be better off without the whole construct if they could keep frictionless trade within the British Isles that way too, plus it would also be great to get rid of EU regulations and become a deregulated commercial and financial hub at the Northwestern shores of Eurasia. So no, they don't mean to return to the Thatcher era, even Thatcherism is a fake cult, in reality they're a lot more reactionary than that.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15041458
Beren wrote:It's Britishness that is fading away actually. The whole concept and (the Kingdom of) Great Britain itself were invented to enhance English imperialism as British imperialism, however, with the complete and irrevocable end of the project the idea, as well as the UK, became an obsolete and no longer pertinent liability to the English, the English ruling class especially, ripe for dissolution. They realised they'd be better off without the whole construct if they could keep frictionless trade within the British Isles that way too, plus it would also be great to get rid of EU regulations and become a deregulated commercial and financial hub at the Northwestern shores of Eurasia. So no, they don't mean to return to the Thatcher era, even Thatcherism is a fake cult, in reality they're a lot more reactionary than that.

Indeed. I've been trying to warn people about the British ruling class for years now, but nobody seemed to be listening. Too late now. Lol.

Modern history does not seem to be kind to multinational unions such as the Soviet Union or the United Kingdom. They seem to be inherently unstable, and once the ruling elite decides that the union which they rule over has itself become a liability to their ambitions as a class, it is doomed....
User avatar
By Beren
#15041461
Potemkin wrote:Indeed. I've been trying to warn people about the British ruling class for years now, but nobody seemed to be listening. Too late now. Lol.

Modern history does not seem to be kind to multinational unions such as the Soviet Union or the United Kingdom. They seem to be inherently unstable, and once the ruling elite decides that the union which they rule over has itself become a liability to their ambitions as a class, it is doomed....

It's quite amazing though that even Great Britain was just a long-term venture capitalist project. They forged a whole new nation for the next 300 years, for god's sake! :excited:
By Presvias
#15041472
Nonsense wrote:I don't blame individual Scots, rather, it's the people who represent them, the SNP, the people might deliver a shock to the SNP post Brexit, we shall have to wait & see.

I personally don't use the other forum now,haven't for a couple of years at least, the 'admins' don't really accept the views of people who think differently to them & they can be too ascerbic for my taste.
This forum is much,much better in my opinion, some people do care enough to make regular comments for debate, I don't think admins should impose their final judgement's on what is right or wrong, particularly when events are often fluid by nature.

Admins on this forum are more elastic, less hardball in waving 'red' cards at users, I think that posters are mature enough to adjust to & live with someone else's views when reason is the main force in debate.

Anyway, getting 3-4 'medals' on such sites is an honor in some quarters,so wear it with some pride. :lol: :lol:


The site has excellent debates and info, but like most sites, it's got big problems.. this site does too. The most amusing thing I see on this site, is other people saying "you're projecting" all the time, when they're doing the exact same thing they accuse others of. :lol:

Your views are not that different my own, decentralising power from the centre,back to where it belongs locally, the closer to the electorate, the better it is.

It's for the above reason that I think Labour are wrong on europe, I mean, it was Labour themselves that introduced devolution, so why would they want more power at the centre, in Brussels?
It's why IMHO, I think that europe has to rewind back to Maastricht & rewrite the Treaties agreed since then.

Were they to do so, europe might just last for the duration,just possibly, my opinion is that large structures will fail, often spectacularly,regretfully, not always peacefully.


That's an interesting view, it's widely believed that Maastrict itself was a power grab too far. I personally am fine with the EU because it has shown it's ultra adaptable and has reformed itself so incredibly well. I accept it is also very flawed but my belief is that it's the best we've got. IMHO going it alone is just not a viable option as things are, in an imperfect and messed up world. But be under no illusiin; if I had my ideal world, there'd be something a million million times better than the EU..
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15041478
Beren wrote:It's quite amazing though that even Great Britain was just a long-term venture capitalist project. They forged a whole new nation for the next 300 years, for god's sake! :excited:

Indeed. And it paid dividends. Literally. Lol! :lol:
By Atlantis
#15041483
Beren wrote:It's Britishness that is fading away actually. The whole concept and (the Kingdom of) Great Britain itself were invented to enhance English imperialism as British imperialism, however, with the complete and irrevocable end of the project the idea, as well as the UK, became an obsolete and no longer pertinent liability to the English, the English ruling class especially, ripe for dissolution.


Absolutely, :up:

It's the death rattle of the Empire, music to my ears.
By B0ycey
#15041485
JohnRawls wrote:So this is basically Mays deal 2.0 with a difference that NI is treated as part of the customs union instead of the whole UK. This has been discussed by May quadrillion times and EU is fine with it.


The difference this time is that NI would be able to opt out of it. Although someone needs to tell Johnson that even if the DUP are on board with this along with the ERG he doesn't hold a majority and so this optimism will be short lived. This will be voted down in Westminster and so he will have to request an extention. Nonetheless at least their is hope for a deal if the Tories win a general election.
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