[foxdemon]

They abound all over the world Foxdemon. They do. And the ones doing un aguaje within their communities get booted out by the worst of the worst.


Horror.

The Labor party lost the last election because the perception was that party was getting too politically correct. Morrison’s liberal government is now over populated with shonky business types. So they will lose credibility soon enough. Then the way is open for some Trump like person to come along. The shonky establishment will fight back using any method fair or foul, to keep their grip on power, and we will be in the same situation as America. Political instability. I expect things to go down hill.

Anyway, back to the UK and shonky Boris Johnson. Brexit is the same phenomenon. The people got a chance to punish the elites and they used it. Had Britain not been ruled by rubbery figures for so many years, this would not have happened.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

You have a point. @Tainari88 does struggle with the principle of there being two sides to an argument. But that mentality is common on the left these days. None the less, there are shonky business types that like to wrap themselves in a veneer of conservative appearance in order to present themselves as respectable people. So Tainari might be one sided in her world view, but she does have a point.

I think there does need to be an adjustment in conservatism, as you suggest. To not do so leaves the way open for all sorts of unsavoury types as the people will still look for leaders if conservatives don’t fill the vacuum. This is why I am disappointed with the Morrison Liberal government replacing well liked conservatives with rubbery business people

I don't think this view is simply one sided, it's wholesale moral condemnation that regards conservatives as irredeemable, probably because it comes from a utopian place.

Other than that, I'm all for self-criticism among conservatives and agree that we could do with fewer business types in prominent positions. It's certainly the case that conservative parties also have a problem when it comes to being reasonably representative of their constituents' views, and that's the case even without taking into account the working class as a potential larger share of their voters.

For the Tories in the UK it's obviously a steep uphill struggle to regain some trust of the working class. Johnson is making some noise in that direction, but as in Australia it may well be mostly talk and nothing else.

[foxdemon]

I don't think this view is simply one sided, it's wholesale moral condemnation that regards conservatives as irredeemable, probably because it comes from a utopian place.

That’s because she is suffering from political polarisation. That is what happens to people’s minds in periods of political instability. Tribalism is another word for it.

Other than that, I'm all for self-criticism among conservatives and agree that we could do with fewer business types in prominent positions. It's certainly the case that conservative parties also have a problem when it comes to being reasonably representative of their constituents' views, and that's the case even without taking into account the working class as a potential larger share of their voters.

Typically, self criticism is a characteristic of western liberal conservatives. I am not sure all conservatives share the tradition of critical self reflection. Certainly, radical traditionalists like Islamic extremists or white supremacists, don’t stop to think about both sides.

But then, nor do politically correct people. It’s all black and white to them. Such is the mentality of the fanatic.

I should point out that there is a similarity between the shonky, supposedly conservative business people and the white upper class politically correct people. Both are motivated by a desire to look good and impress others while not being sincere. They use appearances to gain high standing, while ripping people off and accusing them of racism or such like in order to marginalise any opposition. I think it is this lack of sincerity and ruthless power tactics that is driving people away from status quo politics.

For the Tories in the UK it's obviously a steep uphill struggle to regain some trust of the working class. Johnson is making some noise in that direction, but as in Australia it may well be mostly talk and nothing else.

These things run in cycles. English governance was pretty dodgy at the start of the 18th century, got a bit more accountable up until the industrial revolution, went dodgy again, then improved over the social justice/union period, before going dodgy again in the 1970’s as cheap over seas labour gave the elites the means to avoid unionised labour and the increasing in economic inequality gave the ‘jet set junta’ a monopoly on power.

Things will get worse, but when it gets to the stage that everyone is living in fear and poverty together, the pressure will exist for more sincere and principled leaders to take charge and fix the mess.

[snapdragon]

You mean get things done that only benefit one type of socioeconomic group? Usually wealthy people who are not in need of services or assistance? Getting things done for who and for whom? Lol. Ay Senorita Snapdragon who cares about getting things done if who you serve are comfortable and don't want to share anything with the wider society? I have no respect for human beings who think that being selfish is getting things done.

We're talking about the Labour Party, so naturally, someone who can get things done for the people who vote for them.
To do that, the country must have a thriving economy.

Which group is going to suffer the most losing the ability to find work? The rich and the comfortable or the working class and the struggling? You tell me.

Define working class.

I am not a European and never been a day in Europe in my life. It seems to me and I welcome your correction if I am wrong?[ Is that a common market and a common currency would make it grow economically and make for a greater opportunity to get social mobility happening with time?

All of those things.

The common currency was supposed to make for fiscal integration, which is a good thing on paper, but caused a lot of problems because of the differing economies involved.

The German banks are the engine of that along with others. It seems to me that the UK wanted all the benefits without any of the sacrifices that come along with liberal style wheeling and dealing with ex-colonies of the UK. They want th (as well as boost employment opportunities that are sluggish),the money and the flexibility and the ease of trade relationships should be the motivating factor for a unity of Europe no?

Yes. The single market is the most successful trading deal ever. That is why is so many other countries want to be part of it.

But they don't want to deal with diverse groups coming in and staying in England, Northern Ireland and Scotland. If they wanted cultural isolationism and a separate economy? Then they should never have joined the European Union in the first place. That is my 'understanding' of it. Correct me if I am wrong since I am not British and never stepped foot in that continent in my life.

It's rather simplified, but you're more or less right.

The reason we joined in the first place because the British economy was in dire straits.

If they did not want to have to take hits when there is an economic downturn in European banks or markets? Don't join up. I think the British pound was never converted to the Euro...so it seems like the UK never committed to that market and only paid it lip service in the first place. Correct me if I am wrong? I am just a lowly woman from the lower classes and never went to Europe. See how I tease you there snapdragon?

We'd take hits whether we are in the EU or not.

What is my point? What is the purpose of having a Labour party that gave up on the working man and woman in the United Kingdom long ago and became some centrist liberal/really conservative party long ago. Corbyn isn't Tony Blair that is damn sure. They want to serve labour but they don't want to do what is necessary to get working class Britons what they need. And having Tories in charge are not going to help at all in that. I read that New Republic article about the backstabbing ways and two forked tongue talk of the Tories and it is HORRIFIC. That is the point. You don't want Boris Johnson in charge? That man is an obvious discriminator and he hides behind a bunch of half liberal talk.

Well, he's a Tory, so what do you expect?

Once again, please define what you mean by working class or the lower classes?

People don't fit into these groups any more.

Jeremy Corbyn is the ONLY man who can make some real pressure happen to make sure the NHS is not torn apart to try to bail out the mess that all these ineffective selfish bastards have made in Parliament. That is my answer.

Why do you say that? He's about the last person who'd be able to do it.

Look, as far as I am concerned you can't have your cake and eat it too. You either are in that EU or you are out. And if you are out? Then you are on your own. Don't try to get easy deals from the Netherlands, Switzerland, France, Germany and all the rest. Suck it up and take the hit. And you still got a lot of 'foreign' not English or British faces living among you...suck it up and be decent about it. You went into half the world looking to not have the sun set on the Union Jack and in the end you had to take some responsibility for your colonial policies and give something back from a bunch of places you took a lot from. Be responsible for your decisions and don't come crying when it goes wrong due to paranoid, deeply embedded fear of the foreign in your psyches.

I don't want to leave!

Jeremy Corbyn and his band of merry men do!

I am not talking about you personally Snapdragon. I am talking about the attitude some Brexiters (not all) exhibit towards 'non English' natives.

In my experience, that's most of them.

Some believe Europeans are taking their jobs, or their council houses.

Those involved in the fishing industry believe they're taking their fish.

There are some who believe the EU is too right wing.

But those people are extremely left wing indeed.

For me? I am Latin American and we are passionate always. People who are boring and staid? Never make it in the first round of political life in our cultures. People would never vote in our cultures for boring speakers. It is considered untrustworthy. Lack of emotion and lack of passion is a sign of cold, calculation and callousness in emotional content. A mortal sin in Latin America. We would never trust cold politicians, cold people in general are seen with very bad eyes Snapdragon.

That might be why people are leaving in droves.

Maybe it is the opposite in the UK? But, I am not British. I am passionate. And I see connections between many different concepts because they are all connected (political decisions affect all aspects of people's lives--they just think in too much of a fragmented way to see it.

Well, the only Latin Americans I know personally , are the husband and children of my cousin who married a Mexican. They live in the US.
Her husband was an illegal immigrant, but got American citizenship back in the 80s when there was an amnesty. He just had to sign up at his local courthouse, I think.

None of them, him included, are particularly passionate.

For me all those politicians in parliament are always jockeying for positions and none of them get anything done for working class people. Is that Brexit going to work in improving things? You tell me @skinster . I happen to think British politics is about lying through your teeth, acting like you are in control of all and you tremble in fear in private,
and watching your language. If I am wrong let me know?

No, far from improving things Brexit will make matters a whole lot worse.

I've no idea if politicians tremble in fear in private.

They're certainly mostly all weasels who care more about the Party and their jobs, than the people they are supposed to be representing.

Everything I know about British politics so far has been with a couple of British posters on here. SolarCross for the Far Right and Potemkin for the far Left. I have not read many British centrists on here.

Well, hardly anyone posting in this particular thread is British, so....

B0ycey is kind of centrist liberal. Lol. And he always has opinions that are about getting higher paying jobs in the UK. A common concern for many young people there.

True. I thought that was the case everywhere?

Why wouldn't you want a high paying job, unless you have family money and don't need one.

You are asking for simple answers to what are complicated questions.

If you are interested and have the time I suggest you read this:

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/22 ... eferendum/

You can listen to him speaking on youtube, if that is easier for you.

Just search for professor Michael Dougan's talk on the EU referendum

You'll learn a lot from it. I know I did. I didn't just take everything he said as being honest and truthful.

I did a lot of checking up.

[Rich]

but I wont vote for Corbyn because I despise champagne socialists - and that's exactly what him and his cronies are.

That's a filthy lie, Corbyn doesn't drink alcohol at all let alone Champagne. What evidence do you have that any of Corbyn's inner circle are regular champagne drinkers? Personally I don't drink Alcohol either, before you start accusing me of being a Champagne far centrist, but you can get Champagne for well under £20, so I don't see how the occasional bottle of Champagne is incompatible with a relatively modest life style.

[snapdragon]

That's a filthy lie, Corbyn doesn't drink alcohol at all let alone Champagne. What evidence do you have that any of Corbyn's inner circle are regular champagne drinkers? Personally I don't drink Alcohol either, before you start accusing me of being a Champagne far centrist, but you can get Champagne for well under £20, so I don't see how the occasional bottle of Champagne is incompatible with a relatively modest life style.

oh, for chrissakes…


https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/ch ... _socialist


I suppose if someone told you you'd let the cat out of the bag, you'd indignantly respond that you don't have a cat, but if you did you'd never put it in a bag.

[Rich]

oh, for chrissakes…


https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/ch ... _socialist


I suppose if someone told you you'd let the cat out of the bag, you'd indignantly respond that you don't have a cat, but if you did you'd never put it in a bag.

Yes and where is the evidence that Corbyn or his close associates enjoy a particularly wealthy and luxurious lifestyle? I responded to your statement literally, because the lazy, insult wasn't worthy of a more detailed response. I'm no fan of Corbyn, he was a tacit supporter of the IRA, but then Brexit MEP Clare Fox was an open supporter. There's many things about Corbyn's politics that I don't like, but I repeat the accusation that he can fairly be described as a Champaign socialist is a filthy lie, and I would request that you withdraw it.

[skinster]

^ snapdragon thinks because Corbyn comes from a middle class family, that....err...I don't know, where does her argument go beyond calling him a "champagne socialist"?

Rightwingers using that as a cuss is a weird thing to observe.

How does she know him? I thought she lived in South America.

They have access to newspapers, TV and the internet in South America too you know, and Tainari is a socialist, therefore she reads/pays attention.

Labour won't win the next time, either, unless Corbyn is ditched.

Corbyn will not be ditched because that'll weaken the party as those who joined the party because of him - including me - won't be sticking around if that were to take place.

Labour didn't win the election, though, did they? Not even against the worst PM, ever.

I didn't claim Labour won the election so I'm not sure why you're insinuating that. What I said was during the last election, your ilk were stating that there's no chance in hell that Corbyn could get anywhere close to winning and that was the general sentiment from everyone, including people claiming to support Corbyn. Then, after the result, the moaning turned to "he should've won!!!".

What you mean is, there's a whole lot of former Labour members who think the same way I do.

Yeah, you're a vocal bunch, esp in the media, and you should leave the party and shut up already / stop complaining about how it saddens you that it's now led by a leftwinger instead of a rightwinger, because man, that shit is boring. The Tories will suit you better. I mean, I don't hear the same level of complaining at that party re: the Brexit issue, you know, the party that's in control of the situation. "Nope, this is all Corbyn's fault." It's so absurd.

Hyperbole much?

If anyone is embarrassing, it's you.

Screaming and stamping your feet like a baby.

It's not me moaning about Corbyn for the last 3 years because he doesn't think in the exact same way as me. "He's lost too much trust" says the whiners who've always hated him and pretend otherwise. WE SEE YOU.

I mean, I think certain leaders of certain parties are dogshit, but do you hear me going ooooon and ooooon and ooooon and ooooon about how they suck? The worst is that you think it's you thinking for yourself, when all you're doing is reflecting what I see everyday in the mainstream media by people going ooooon and ooooon and oooon about how awful Corbyn is, even though when you look at his character as an individual, the policies he supports, his voting record, etc., it makes absolutely no sense to moan about him to the degree that you do, unless you hating the working class.

But oh yeah, class in England doesn't exist in your mind.

[SolarCross]

If Corbyn is a champagne socialist then presumably the answers would be in his wiki bio:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Corbyn

He isn't super rich but he did have the advantage of a private education (though it didn't do him any good, 2 A levels at grade E!) and he doesn't appear to have ever had a proper job. Even super posh Boris Johnson has at least earned an honest living as a journalist.

I don't know if that makes him a champagne socialist or not. But I wonder about individuals who have never actually had any kind of actual employment crying about the working classes. What would they know about it? I have been a working man all my adult life (even I started at 15 with a part-time job) it always seemed pretty okay? No complaints here.

The only real oppression the working people face in the UK today is from cops robbing motorists (most motorists are workers and getting to and from work is what most motorists do with most of their motoring), bullshit propagandists in the public education and of course the ever grasping tax man. Corbyn I suspect would like to double down on all that nonsense.

[skinster]

^ Corbyn was an activist before you started your first job and worked for trade unions in the past too.

On topic :

[SolarCross]

Corbyn was an activist before you started your first job and worked for trade unions in the past too.

Neither of which are proper jobs. The former is just tantrum throwing and the latter something akin to being a hustler or grifter.

[skinster]

How is working for a union a grift?

[Rich]

But I wonder about individuals who have never actually had any kind actual employment crying about the working classes. What would they know about it?

He had plenty of employment, before he became an MP. Quite different from Trump who was a failure as a businessman, living off his Daddy's money. It was his privilege of immense wealth that made him a celebrity that allowed him to become a successful reality TV show.

I strongly disagree with, the Nazis, the Bolsheviks and Al Qaeda, but its stupid to deny that they were committed individuals willing to make substantial sacrifices. Sure the level of sacrifice by western lefties is not on that level, but the activists do a lot of work for nothing.

[SolarCross]

If the labour party wants my vote:

1. Tell the cops to stop robbing motorists

2. Boot all the socialist propagandists and SJWs out of public education. Or privatise it.

3. Raise the Personal Income Allowance to at least £20k per anum.

4. Lower VAT to 5% (at most)

5. Allow an option to opt out of the Council Tax if you don't want their crappy over-priced bin collecting service.

6. Scrap fuel duties

Boom! Instant labour convert.

[JohnRawls]

If the labour party wants my vote:

1. Tell the cops to stop robbing motorists

2. Boot all the socialist propagandists and SJWs out of public education. Or privatise it.

3. Raise the Personal Income Allowance to at least £20k per anum.

4. Lower VAT to 5% (at most)

5. Allow an option to opt out of the Council Tax if you don't want their crappy over-priced bin collecting service.

6. Scrap fuel duties

Boom! Instant labour convert.

That is some unreasonable policies. 0 taxes is not really a policy, it's a meme.

[snapdragon]

Yes and where is the evidence that Corbyn or his close associates enjoy a particularly wealthy and luxurious lifestyle?

I told you.

I know them.

I responded to your statement literally, because the lazy, insult wasn't worthy of a more detailed response. I'm no fan of Corbyn, he was a tacit supporter of the IRA, but then Brexit MEP Clare Fox was an open supporter. There's many things about Corbyn's politics that I don't like, but I repeat the accusation that he can fairly be described as a Champaign socialist is a filthy lie, and I would request that you withdraw it.

You prove me wrong.

[Potemkin]

That is some unreasonable policies. 0 taxes is not really a policy, it's a meme.

The main problem with that list of 'demands' is how petty they are. All SC is concerned about, it seems, is his pocketbook. At least the Brexiters are willing to take an economic hit for their beliefs. Even if I disagree with them or dislike them, I can at least respect that.

[skinster]

I told you.

I know them.

Your opinion isn't evidence. Rich asked for evidence.

You prove me wrong.

It's you that's claiming Corbyn is a "champagne socialist" or whatever, so it's up to you to prove that is the case to Rich or as he requested, withdraw it.

Everything I see from you is your opinion. I'm not sure why you think it's of any value to those of us reading you, but lol at that arrogance.

[SSDR]

Tell the cops to stop robbing motorists.

Tell the Moslems to stop robbing western infrastructures.

[SolarCross]

That is some unreasonable policies. 0 taxes is not really a policy, it's a meme.

I didn't say 0% taxes although there are some countries that have near enough that.

https://flagtheory.com/tax-free-countries/