[Puffer Fish]

Many countries, including the U.S. have been bringing in workers from other countries to take care of their aging populations. It's often said by policy-makers and politicians that "there's not enough workers to take care of the old", but the real issue is more about getting skilled and semi-skilled workers who don't have to be paid as much.

Well, this makes sense on one level, doesn't it? If you have a lot of old people with limited financial means, and they need to be taken care of, why not bring in lower cost care workers from other countries? Sounds like a win-win, doesn't it? Someone needs to staff all those nursing homes.

The thing is though, who's going to take care of all these workers when they eventually become old?

When you step back and look at this you see it's actually a pyramid scheme, of sorts.
You get one group of workers, don't pay them very much, and then they're going to need to be taken care of. Naturally the solution will be to bring in another round of foreign care workers. Is this really a sustainable solution long-term?

I think a demographic crisis is looming. When the next generation moves into retirement there's going to be a big shortage of care workers to take care of all these people in their old age. It's going to put a strain on government budgets, and put a lot of old people with limited financial means into a pinch.


Looks like Germany is beginning to have problems with this now:

All these retiring old people are going to put a strain on the state's pension system, ironically the very thing bringing in migrant workers was supposed to avoid. This is going to have implications for many other retired people in the country.


The idea that bringing in hoards of random people from other troubled parts of the world could be a solution to the aging demographics problem was based on numerous false assumptions, in my opinion.

As the supply of workers increase, it's going to start tipping the balance of supply and demand for labor, driving wages down.

There are not going to be enough higher paying jobs for all these additional people, and even if there are, the question remains where is the money going to come to train them all. Has anyone really looked at the exact mathematics of the cost to benefit of providing education to all these people, or have we just automatically made the assumption it will automatically pay off, no doubt about it?

You can add more workers, but it's not going to help contribute to government revenues if the amount it costs to have these additional people exceeds what they are paying in taxes. And in any population, not everyone is going to be working, there are children, unemployed people, chronically sick and disabled people, older people. We all know the jobs available to these foreigners tend to be the lower paying ones.

Then there is the effect on housing. Adding more people does not merely just add more workers in isolation. It also puts more pressure on housing in higher demand city areas. These city areas have shortages of affordable housing. More shortages will drive up prices for already existing housing, and exacerbate poverty. Probably going to be the younger generation and renting class who will pay the price.

One of the main reasons young people in city areas have been putting off starting families and having children is the very high cost of housing.

[ness31]

The aged care industry is disgusting. And it is an industry, no doubt about it. We should all be ashamed that we have lost our way to the point of putting our children in day care and our elderly in aged care. We are a dumb species.

Edit: I’d like to add, just because the workers are foreign does not make them inferior at providing care, indeed it is at times the opposite. It’s the qualifications that are an issue. These facilities are filled with ‘carers’ when what is needed at a minimum is an enrolled nurse.

[Ter]

We should all be ashamed that we have lost our way to the point of putting our children in day care and our elderly in aged care.

Well said !
None of my four children have ever been in daycare and none of the elderly in my family were in old people's homes. (except one uncle who had late stage Alzheimer in Europe)

[Puffer Fish]

It’s the qualifications that are an issue. These facilities are filled with ‘carers’ when what is needed at a minimum is an enrolled nurse.

The issue is money.

The question arises as to why these old people can't afford their own care, and why the government can't afford it.

Turning to cheaper foreign care workers indicates something in this economic model is not sustainable.

[Godstud]

Taking care of your parents, when they get older, is a necessity, IMO. No one should balk at it, if you care for your family.

That said, my mom went into a retirement home(nursing home) because she wanted to. It was first class all the way, and wasn't a place where you went to die, but to enjoy yourself. It wasn't CHEAP, but it wasn't overly expensive, and they had access to a doctor on a regular basis(in bi-weekly) and regular activities. Pool tables, card tables, etc. and an Air Conditioned hall for the summer time.

They also did room checks if your health was poor, and made you meals for a small fee.

Good rooms and a nice environment, for an average sum(average by rental costs in our city).

[ingliz]

The issue is money.

Wrong!

How much is spent on what is a political choice.

Your problem, if there is a problem seeing that who gets taxed and how much is taken in tax and how much is spent on what is a political choice, is demographic.

[Rich]

The aged care industry is disgusting. And it is an industry, no doubt about it. We should all be ashamed that we have lost our way to the point of putting our children in day care and our elderly in aged care. We are a dumb species.

Could you give some examples of other species that have better care for their elderly members than humans.

[ness31]

Could you give some examples of other species that have better care for their elderly members than humans.

You’ve got me there Rich. I can’t communicate with any other species to be able to garner the necessary information.

But considering we put such a high value on life (or at least we profess to) we appear to be dumb by outsourcing care of loved ones in a) their most defining years and b) in some of their most fragile years.

Unless I’ve got it all wrong and that’s how it’s meant to be

[Ter]

Could you give some examples of other species that have better care for their elderly members than humans.

Actually, yes : Gibbons (Hylobates sp.) continue to bring food to their elderly relatives when they can no longer forage for themselves.

But indeed that is not relevant. We as humans have the knowledge, the technology and the economic circumstances to look after our elderly and/or incapacitated relatives if we chose to do so. But we don't.

[Puffer Fish]

A look at older people in Japan:

According to NHK, 12.4 percent of the workforce is over 65 at present, and many of these people are doing manual work, often for the first time in their lives. In Mimasaka, 40 percent of all workers are over 65.

It’s obvious that more older people are either forgoing retirement or reentering the workforce afterward. In many cases, these elderly workers need the money because basic national pensions are not enough to get by on, but a popular media narrative is that these people are going back to work because they are bored with retired life or think that society needs them.

In 2017, there were 8 million workers aged over 65, and for the most part all were making significantly less money than they did when they were younger, usually because they retired from their old jobs and were then hired as "new employees."
​
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/ ... HOxLfZFyow

[AFAIK]

If you're going to necropost a retirement and immigration thread from 2019 shouldn't you mention covid?

[MistyTiger]

If you're going to necropost a retirement and immigration thread from 2019 shouldn't you mention covid?

I'm not even sure he understands what covid is. He is lucky then to not have experienced it. I have and I wish I hadn't. It was an unforgettable experience for me.

[snapdragon]

It isn’t always possible to look after elderly relatives. My mum was pretty independent until she was stricken with cancer of the oesophagus and needed complete care.

It wasn’t just a matter of bringing her meals and making sure her house was clean, but washing and changing her and all the intimate things she didn’t want me to do and I didn’t want to do. Carers came three times a day for this and the district nurse to adjust her medication and try to ease her suffering.

It was bloody horrible and I wish I’d listened to the advice of the district nurse and persuaded her to be moved into a hospice.

Nobody should be judged for not being able to care for elderly relatives, especially when they have their own living to earn

[Puffer Fish]

in case the video link stops working, here is a partial transcript from the video

A Home for Life: Turkish Migrants Retiring in Germany
A Report by Bertram von Boxberg

Migrants Retiring in Germany, Journal Reporters , DW News
Deutsche Welle, German public state-owned global news TV program

"Schöneberg [Schoneberg] is a district in central Berlin. It's home to people from many different backgrounds. Around 50% of people here were born outside of Germany. And they're getting older.

Turkish immigrants who moved to Berlin as guest workers 40 years ago have reached retirement age. But how will they spend their autumn years?
Even in a large city like Berlin, leasure and social services for this special group are thin on the ground.

But Huzur is an exception. Run by Gülşen Aktaş [Gulsen Aktas], it's a place where retired people with immigrant backgrounds can meet, and get support. Gülşen's mother came to Germany as a guest worker. With a degree in political science, Gülşen knows politicians never plan for the retirement of these guest workers.

As Gülşen explains, migrants were always seen as a temporary phenomena by the political establishment in Germany. They were never expected to spend their retirement years here. And many of the migrants themselves expected to return home. But that's not how it turned out.
Those people stayed in Germany, and grew older.
The idyllic image of a large Turkish family, with the younger generations caring lovingly for their elderly parents, does not always reflect reality. There are often tensions between their parents and their children. Gülşen explains that many second generation immigrants were left in their home countries while their parents got settled in Germany. They came later at the age of 8, 10, or even 15. So they were estranged from their parents. And that she says puts a strain on relationships later in life. Selby Jenga is one of those who can't rely on a family support network. Now 68, she came to Germany more than 40 years ago to work in the garment industry. On a trip to Turkey, she married, and her husband moved to Germany. They had two children together. She says her marriage was hell. Her husband would wake up early and leave the house without saying when he'd be back. If the children asked for something, instead of answering he would just hit them. She says she tried to comfort the children, but her husband was an alcoholic, and a gambler. When he came home, she says, he stank of raki [the national alcoholic drink of Turkey]. She found him disgusting. When Selby Jenga could stand him no more, she left her husband. Her children took their father's side and broke off all contact with their mother.
The saddest thing for Selby is that she doesn't get to see her grandchildren. She says her grandson gave her this branch one day at the playground and said "This is for you to take home, grandma." He was four years old. That's the last time she saw him. She's treasured it ever since.
Today Selby lives alone without her family in a one-room apartment in this huge social housing block in Berlin. In the mid-90s she suffered severe depression and had to be treated in the hospital. She found art therapy helped her come to terms with her sadness.

Many of the women at Huzur are widows.

Gülşen Aktaş says she often sees a kind of burst of liberation among Turkish or Kurdish women once they're widowed. They no longer have to ask permission to go out, to go shopping. They can do what they want, when they want, and they enjoy that freedom a lot."

[late]

My Doc is from Eastern Europe, at least I think thats the area. I will ask him. He's a good doc, not the best I've had, but decent.

Over the years I've had many immigrants as health care workers. Last time I had my teeth cleaned, the gal was from Taiwan, and absolutely adorable.

We need more people because we have a LOT of jobs that need them.

[Tainari88]

Actually, yes : Gibbons (Hylobates sp.) continue to bring food to their elderly relatives when they can no longer forage for themselves.

But indeed that is not relevant. We as humans have the knowledge, the technology and the economic circumstances to look after our elderly and/or incapacitated relatives if we chose to do so. But we don't.

Do not speak for all human cultures Ter. I live in Southern Mexico. They are very traditional here and I see elderly relatives being cared for really well everywhere I go. A lot of Yucatecans care for their older folks at home. They get government support too. But, the majority have friends, neighbors and blood relatives caring for them.

My father had diabetes and Parkinson's disease. He died young. He was 65 when he died. His last three years of life were challenging. He needed meds, had side effect reactions to the medications and my husband and I took turns taking care of him until the end. My husband spent his own money on all kinds of extras for him.

He did the same with my mother too. So, in traditional Latino cultures you do care for your elderly relatives. Though near the end he had to be put in hospice care because his symptoms needed a registered nurse day and night.

He was in a hospital when he passed away.

It is rare to find a Mexican family abandoning their relatives at all. I think it is even illegal in this state to do so.

So, no, that is something that is not a universal thing letting the elderly go to the state or something to be cared for. Not all cultures are the same.

[Ter]

Do not speak for all human cultures Ter. I live in Southern Mexico. They are very traditional here and I see elderly relatives being cared for really well everywhere I go. A lot of Yucatecans care for their older folks at home. They get government support too. But, the majority have friends, neighbors and blood relatives caring for them.

My father had diabetes and Parkinson's disease. He died young. He was 65 when he died. His last three years of life were challenging. He needed meds, had side effect reactions to the medications and my husband and I took turns taking care of him until the end. My husband spent his own money on all kinds of extras for him.

He did the same with my mother too. So, in traditional Latino cultures you do care for your elderly relatives. Though near the end he had to be put in hospice care because his symptoms needed a registered nurse day and night.

He was in a hospital when he passed away.

It is rare to find a Mexican family abandoning their relatives at all. I think it is even illegal in this state to do so.

So, no, that is something that is not a universal thing letting the elderly go to the state or something to be cared for. Not all cultures are the same.

You are correct.

What I said (in 2019) is mostly relevant to the collective West, meaning Europe and North America.
Here is Asia where I live, adult children continue to look after their parents when they grow old.
This tradition is eroded in Asian countries under Western influence, like Japan, South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan.

Two of my sons live with me in Thailand and although I am not (yet) disabled because of age, they volunteer the heavy lifting and other chores.

As far as I have seen, this is also true in Africa.

[Tainari88]

You are correct.

What I said (in 2019) is mostly relevant to the collective West, meaning Europe and North America.
Here is Asia where I live, adult children continue to look after their parents when they grow old.
This tradition is eroded in Asian countries under Western influence, like Japan, South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan.

Two of my sons live with me in Thailand and although I am not (yet) disabled because of age, they volunteer the heavy lifting and other chores.

As far as I have seen, this is also true in Africa.

Yes it is.

But, I think in the USA and in other nations many people just live too far away from their closest relatives. People are scattered like leaves across many states far from each other. People have followed their job prospects. Many times that means uprooting themselves and living outside of the communities they were initially born and raised in. Most Americans move once every 3 to 5 years. Especially the younger generations. Many younger folks do not buy homes anymore. They are priced out of it.

It means renting. And renting means a lack of stability. Rent goes up too much? You have to move. Rent becomes not enough and the owners sell? Got to move out.

Often to another city in another state that is hundreds or thousands of miles away.

I have to be honest too Ter? For me Anglos from the USA are cold people. I am unconvinced they are as family oriented as the Latin Americans are or as family centered as many African immigrant communities and some Southeast Asian communities are.

The more assimilated into WASP culture people are in the USA the less family obligations they feel.

I moved to Mexico because all my relatives are dead mostly. My parents are gone and so are my in laws. I did not have close blood relatives living near me or that I could rely upon them.

But I knew if I moved to Latin America my neighbors, friends and family would be strong enough for there to be a network to rely on. You remain in the USA? Most probably you have nothing of import of family values.

It is a very weak on communal obligation society. It is an individualistic, rat race, competitive, and materialistic culture and I found it repulsive in human warmth. Nothing there but a need to spend on crap and think love is about seeing your family at Thanksgiving. I never liked it.

[Puffer Fish]

The aged care industry is disgusting. And it is an industry, no doubt about it. We should all be ashamed that we have lost our way to the point of putting our children in day care and our elderly in aged care.

One thing we have to realise is many of these immigrants move to bigger city areas where space is expensive and living conditions are more crowded.
It may be more difficult and less desirable for the children to care for their parents in these circumstances.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Puffer Fish

Where do you live?