[Rugoz]

If they can detect traces of a particular poison, then the Russian doctors will have to admit the fact. They are scientists and science deals with facts and not political opinions.

Is that a joke? Try to deal with facts if the police hands you a script to read from.

[Atlantis]

Merkel says Novichok poisoning of Russia’s Navalny was attempted murder

German Chancellor Merkel called the Navalny case "attempted murder with a nerve agent" adding that she expected Moscow to explain its position. Navalny was flown to Berlin for treatment after falling ill in Russia.

Angela Merkel said there was "shocking information" that showed "beyond a doubt" that the poisoning of Alexei Navalny was "an attempted murder with nerve agent" after a toxicology test in Germany showed that the opposition leader had been targeted with Novichok.

Merkel said Navalny was "the victim of a crime intended to silence him." She said the gravity of that fact made it important for her to "take a clear stance."

The chancellor said the case raises "very serious questions that only the Russian government can answer — and must answer," adding, "the world will wait for an answer."

Berlin slams attack 'in strongest possible terms'
Previously, a government spokesman said that the test showed conclusive evidence that the Russian opposition leader had been poisoned with the nerve agent Novichok.

The test was conducted in a special German military lab, according to the government spokesman Steffen Seibert.

Seibert said Merkel and her Cabinet had met to discuss the situation and determine a course of action. In a tweet announcing the findings, Seibert wrote, "The German federal government condemns this attack in the strongest possible terms."

The German government expected a swift and full explanation from Russia, according to the spokesman, who also added that Foreign Minister Heiko Maas had summoned the Russian ambassador to discuss the situation.

Berlin will now confer with its EU and NATO partners to discuss an appropriate reaction to the incident, as well as notifying the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) as to the findings. Calling for a united diplomatic reaction in her statement, Merkel said, "The crime against Alexei Navalny was aimed at the fundamental values and rights for which we stand."

Diplomatic battle over Navalny
Navalny is a known critic of Russian President Vladimir Putin. The opposition leader and his allies claimed Navalny had been poisoned once before while in a detention cell in Moscow last year. He was also attacked in public. The nerve agent Novichok is the same toxin that was used in the 2018 poisoning of former double agent Sergei Skripal in Salisbury, England.

Navalny fell ill during a flight from Siberia to Moscow on August 20, after which his plane made an emergency landing in the Siberian city of Omsk and he was rushed to a local hospital where he went into coma. Two days later, after much diplomatic wrangling, Russian doctors allowed the opposition leader to be flown to Berlin, where he was treated at the city’s Charite Hospital.

He remains in a medically induced coma and on a ventilator in the Charite as of Wednesday afternoon. Doctors there say that his condition is critical though his life is no longer in danger.

[Dr Cosmo]

Its not impossible to imagine, that even US secret agencies are involved with the poisoning incident.

As the US pursues a strategic interest to keep up the narrative of an "evil" Russia in Europe / Germany .

[Rancid]

Its not impossible to imagine, that even US secret agencies are involved with the poisoning incident.

As the US pursues a strategic interest to keep up the narrative of an "evil" Russia in Europe / Germany .

Our president loves Russia and considers Russia his friend.

Anyway, it's easy to rationalize just about any position.

[ingliz]

The nerve agent Novichok

For a military grade nerve agent it's a bit shit - Five people receive a massive dose*, 4 live.

* In Salisbury, according to the Independent, a British newspaper, it was "enough to kill several hundreds of thousands of people."

Note we are not counting all the police, ambulance men, forensic specialists, members of the public and soldiers in Salisbury without hazmat suits, the passengers on the plane in Siberia, etc, who it's hard to argue didn't receive a dose and are still living.

[Rancid]

For a military grade nerve agent it's a bit shit - Five people receive a massive dose*, 4 live.

* In Salisbury, according to the Independent, a British newspaper, it was "enough to kill several hundreds of thousands of people."

Note we are not counting all the police, ambulance men, forensic specialists, members of the public and soldiers in Salisbury without hazmat suits, the passengers on the plane in Siberia, etc, who it's hard to argue didn't receive a dose and are still living.

Exactly.

Nothing to see here folks. Carry on.

[Rugoz]

For a military grade nerve agent it's a bit shit - Five people receive a massive dose*, 4 live.

The goal here is obviously not to kill but to terrorize. Killing people is easy.

[skinster]

Novichok, Navalny, Nordstream, Nonsense
Once Navalny was in Berlin it was only a matter of time before it was declared that he was poisoned with Novichok. The Russophobes are delighted. This of course eliminates all vestiges of doubt about what happened to the Skripals, and proves that Russia must be isolated and sanctioned to death and we must spend untold billions on weapons and security services. We must also increase domestic surveillance, crack down on dissenting online opinion. It also proves that Donald Trump is a Russian puppet and Brexit is a Russian plot.

I am going to prove beyond all doubt that I am a Russian troll by asking the question Cui Bono?, brilliantly identified by the Integrity Initiative’s Ben Nimmo as a sure sign of Russian influence.

I should state that I have no difficulty at all with the notion that a powerful oligarch or an organ of the Russian state may have tried to assassinate Navalny. He is a minor irritant, rather more famous here than in Russia, but not being a major threat does not protect you against political assassination in Russia.

What I do have difficulty with is the notion that if Putin, or other very powerful Russian actors, wanted Navalny dead, and had attacked him while he was in Siberia, he would not be alive in Germany today. If Putin wanted him dead, he would be dead.

Let us first take the weapon of attack. One thing we know about a “Novichok” for sure is that it appears not to be very good at assassination. Poor Dawn Sturgess is the only person ever to have allegedly died from “Novichok”, accidentally according to the official narrative. “Novichok” did not kill the Skripals, the actual target. If Putin wanted Navalny dead, he would try something that works. Like a bullet to the head, or an actually deadly poison.

“Novichok” is not a specific chemical. It is a class of chemical weapon designed to be improvised in the field from common domestic or industrial precursors. It makes some sense to use on foreign soil as you are not carrying around the actual nerve agent, and may be able to buy the ingredients locally. But it makes no sense at all in your own country, where the FSB or GRU can swan around with any deadly weapon they wish, to be making homemade nerve agents in the sink. Why would you do that?

Further we are expected to believe that, the Russian state having poisoned Navalny, the Russian state then allowed the airplane he was traveling in, on a domestic flight, to divert to another airport, and make an emergency landing, so he could be rushed to hospital. If the Russian secret services had poisoned Navalny at the airport before takeoff as alleged, why would they not insist the plane stick to its original flight plan and let him die on the plane? They would have foreseen what would happen to the plane he was on.

Next, we are supposed to believe that the Russian state, having poisoned Navalny, was not able to contrive his death in the intensive care unit of a Russian state hospital. We are supposed to believe that the evil Russian state was able to falsify all his toxicology tests and prevent doctors telling the truth about his poisoning, but the evil Russian state lacked the power to switch off the ventilator for a few minutes or slip something into his drip. In a Russian state hospital.

Next we are supposed to believe that Putin, having poisoned Navalny with novichok, allowed him to be flown to Germany to be saved, making it certain the novichok would be discovered. And that Putin did this because he was worried Merkel was angry, not realising she might be still more angry when she discovered Putin had poisoned him with novichok

There are a whole stream of utterly unbelievable points there, every single one of which you have to believe to go along with the western narrative. Personally I do not buy a single one of them, but then I am a notorious Russophile traitor.

The United States is very keen indeed to stop Germany completing the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, which will supply Russian gas to Germany on a massive scale, sufficient for about 40% of its electricity generation. Personally I am opposed to Nord Stream 2 myself, on both environmental and strategic grounds. I would much rather Germany put its formidable industrial might into renewables and self-sufficiency. But my reasons are very different from those of the USA, which is concerned about the market for liquefied gas to Europe for US produces and for the Gulf allies of the US. Key decisions on the completion of Nord Stream 2 are now in train in Germany.

The US and Saudi Arabia have every reason to instigate a split between Germany and Russia at this time. Navalny is certainly a victim of international politics. That he is a victim of Putin I tend to doubt.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... -nonsense/

[JohnRawls]

https://twitter.com/beingrichard/status/1301784932914614273?s=20

You are a caricature of some sort, aren't you?

How can you be defending so many bad deeds and things at times. I don't get it. He was clearly poisoned. I mean the 3 culprits who could poison Navalny are: Navalny himself, some oligarch from Russia who was hurt by his work or the State by the order of Putin.

The first one is very unlikely because NAvalny would in no way have access to Novichok. So it leaves only Oligarchs or Putin. Both cases is Russias fault.

[ThirdTerm]

Navalny has made a lot of enemies with his documentary films exposing corruptions in Russia. Chaika is a 2015 Russian documentary film about the corrupt affairs and some other crimes of Prosecutor General of Russia Yury Chaika and his sons, Artyom Chaika and Igor Chaika. Navalny was filming another documentary on Russia's construction industry and its close ties to the mafia just before the Novichok incident. Putin has offered the underworld a kind of "social contract" that defines the terms under which Russian gangs operate. The World Cup was a cash bonanza for the gangs willing to operate within the system, gaining access to lucrative construction and land deals for hotels and stadiums. Russia's Investigative Committee has asked one of its regional branches in Siberia to probe the possibility that someone tried to murder Kremlin critic Alexey Navalny.

[skinster]

[one-liner attack deleted. Prosthetic Conscience]

[Patrickov]

Whatever happened to the idea of "presumed innocent until proven guilty"?

I think this is for judicial process to avoid wrongful sentencing.

It is not necessary for individual debates and investigations to follow this rule, otherwise nothing can be achieved.

[Patrickov]

That's you, neolib warmonger.

He is not, but I suspect those who are become one exactly because of the existence of people like you.

[skinster]

Yeah it's my fault that JohnRawls politics are neoliberal warmongering.

Have you seen his posts?

End of Maduro! End of Lukashenko! End of Morales! He's a neolib because he's too lazy to understand the world outside the immediate propaganda we're all forced with...and these people love war.

[Rugoz]

He's a neolib because he's too lazy to understand the world outside the immediate propaganda we're all forced with...and these people love war.

He's a hell of a lot more knowledgable about the world than you are. In fact almost everybody here is, except a few Trumpsters who are on the same level.

[skinster]

^ Ah, the poster who only ever responds to me with crying about what I post, never arguing against it, and nothing much beyond that.

[JohnRawls]

Yeah it's my fault that JohnRawls politics are neoliberal warmongering.

Have you seen his posts?

End of Maduro! End of Lukashenko! End of Morales! He's a neolib because he's too lazy to understand the world outside the immediate propaganda we're all forced with...and these people love war.

You have no experience with socialism and have never seen what the outcome of badly implemented socialism is. Nor you have any idea about the recovery from such systems. You have ideas in your head that contradict reality at times. If you want to implement socialism then consider the northern European model. It is not an easy model to implement because it requires high trust in the government which is absent in most states but it is possible.

The versions of socialism that you are rooting for in Venezuela or in Belarus and some other places lead to damaged societies in the end. Not to mention that i dislike violations of human rights or democracy in general, that your beloved regimes engage in. While to some they might look like minor things, in the end they lead to significant economic and societal consequences.

As someone who has relatives who experienced it and me myself experienced it and lived through the outcome, i have an obligation to talk about it. At the very least to warn people about it and to make my conciseness a bit better in this regard.

[Rancid]

I'm still waiting on the results of the Russian investigations. Pretty sure they will clear things up for us.

[JohnRawls]

I'm still waiting on the results of the Russian investigations. Pretty sure they will clear things up for us.

They are not starting one. They refused to start any investigation because there has been no poisoning so nothing to investigate. Navalny just had a problem with the stomach and low blood sugar so that is why he is in a coma. That is the official version right now.

[Rancid]

They are not starting one. They refused to start any investigation because there has been no poisoning so nothing to investigate. Navalny just had a problem with the stomach and low blood sugar so that is why he is in a coma. That is the official version right now.

Ah, well, that clears it all up then. Nothing to see here.