Armenia and Azerbaijan mobilize for war - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15125133
annatar1914 wrote:Have any of them left or tried to get their countries to leave the EU? No, they have not. For them, it would be impossible, nor do they want the tribulation for their countries to even try.


They either don't have the power or have little to gain politically from leaving, not least because EU membership is relatively popular.

The UK/Switzerland/Norway/Iceland aren't EU members and yet a part of Europe.
#15125140
@Rugoz

They either don't have the power or have little to gain politically from leaving


Precisely my point. National leaders, who don't have the power to leave, which rather begs the question.

not least because EU membership is relatively popular.


Among whom and for what reasons? Besides, you know as well as I do that polls are more for shaping opinions than reflecting them.

The UK/Switzerland/Norway/Iceland aren't EU members and yet a part of Europe.


Yes, they are ''European'', and yet have preserved their national sovereignty than the EU states have.
#15125146
annatar1914 wrote:Among whom and for what reasons? Besides, you know as well as I do that polls are more for shaping opinions than reflecting them.

Among the people and for economic and historic reasons. Even if you don't believe pollsters, the EU was validated by the last EP elections and there's not any national leader seriously questioning it, including such notorious ones as the leaders of Poland and Hungary. The only way Orban could fall today would be if he pushed for Huxit, which he never even mentions for a reason even while rhetorically messing with Brussels. :lol:

I wonder if in what bubble people have to live to believe that the EU is some very unpopular thing somehow forced on the peoples of Europe against their will like a dictatorship. Europeans actually like the idea of sticking together and that their leaders regularly sit around a table to discuss and sort out problems together in a peaceful and orderly manner. Even if they have some problems with it, they believe it's generally good for European peace, harmony and prosperity. In my opinion the whole populist wave is over and following Brexit there's not any EU-member nation that seriously considers leaving or dismantling the Union.
#15125153
@Beren , you replied;

Among the people and for economic and historic reasons. Even if you don't believe pollsters, the EU was validated by the last EP elections and there's not any national leader seriously questioning it, including such notorious ones as the leaders of Poland and Hungary. The only way Orban could fall today would be if he pushed for Huxit, which he never even mentions for a reason even while rhetorically messing with Brussels. :lol:


As i'm saying; not strong enough to be separate.

I wonder if in what bubble people have to live to believe that the EU is some very unpopular thing somehow forced on the peoples of Europe against their will like a dictatorship. Europeans actually like the idea of sticking together and that their leaders regularly sit around a table to discuss and sort out problems together in a peaceful and orderly manner. Even if they have some problems with it, they believe it's generally good for European peace, harmony and prosperity. In my opinion the whole populist wave is over and following Brexit there's not any EU-member nation that seriously considers leaving or dismantling the Union.


Certainly works for some, until it doesn't. Well before then Europe won't be Europe anymore.
#15125163
While Azerbaijan claims that Armenia has hit residential areas of Ganja, Azerbaijan's 2nd biggest city, with rockets, there are numerous reports of hits on residential areas in Stepanakert, the capital city of Nagorno Karabakh. This video reportedly shows a strike with cluster munitions. They are supplied by Israel and their use is outlawed. If true, it amounts to a crime of war. The aim is apparently to terrorize the Armenians of NK to make them leave.

#15125180
Istanbuller wrote:Russia won't help Armenia until a pro-Russian government, which Putin expects it to express full commitment to Russia, is resumed. Putin certainly wants to cut off Armenian ties with the West.


When that happens-and it will-you are likely to not enjoy the outcome. And Iran, Turkey, and Azerbaijan will not like the outcome either.
#15125202
I will repeat this again: Russia will not intervene because there is nothing for Russia to gain and only to loose. Russia is not the EU, Russia doesnt care about humanism nor morality. For Russia Armenia and Azerbaijan with or without Nagorno Karobax are still both allies. So for Russia it doesn't matter who wins or loses one way or the other.
#15125205
JohnRawls wrote:I will repeat this again: Russia will not intervene because there is nothing for Russia to gain and only to loose. Russia is not the EU, Russia doesnt care about humanism nor morality. For Russia Armenia and Azerbaijan with or without Nagorno Karobax are still both allies. So for Russia it doesn't matter who wins or loses one way or the other.


Your prognostications often don't age well. Russia cannot have Iran and Turkey cooperating together and using Azerbaijan to destabilize the Caucasus region with their Islamic territorial revisionism, that cannot stand. And your ethnic slur against Russia about ''humanism'' and ''morality'' is duly noted :roll:
#15125223
annatar1914 wrote:Your prognostications often don't age well. Russia cannot have Iran and Turkey cooperating together and using Azerbaijan to destabilize the Caucasus region with their Islamic territorial revisionism, that cannot stand. And your ethnic slur against Russia about ''humanism'' and ''morality'' is duly noted :roll:


How so? Russia might intervene if the situation changes but right now it hasn't. I am not sure why you are so obsessed with me lately but most of my predictions are pretty spot on. The only one that people like to blow out of proportion is my "end of maduro" thread. In general, i understand that my "end of" threads are not liked and a lot of people take them as imperealism but whatever, I will still keep posting them.

What exactly is wrong here:
1) Is Maduro not raping his country? Or are you gonna imply that Maduro/Chavez are not at fault for the things in Venezuela?
2) Has Morales not broken the constitution? So I see nothing wrong with him being kicked out even by a coup as long as the coup conducts a proper election with Moraleses party taking part. Which is happening right now on the 18th.
3) Has Lukashenko not been an unmitigated disaster recently both socially and economically? He basically imprisoned his opposition and still lost to a wife of one of the opposition leaders.

When i posted "end of Maduro" thread i never thought that he will survive for so long by torturing his people so much. Morales case was pretty simple. Lukashenko on the other hand is mysterious because it can go both ways. The opposition seems to be fully non-violent but that seems to be more of a weakness than a benefit because nothing stops Lukashenko from just ingoring them for months like he is doing it right now.
#15125233
JohnRawls wrote:How so? Russia might intervene if the situation changes but right now it hasn't. I am not sure why you are so obsessed with me lately but most of my predictions are pretty spot on. The only one that people like to blow out of proportion is my "end of maduro" thread. In general, i understand that my "end of" threads are not liked and a lot of people take them as imperealism but whatever, I will still keep posting them.

What exactly is wrong here:
1) Is Maduro not raping his country? Or are you gonna imply that Maduro/Chavez are not at fault for the things in Venezuela?
2) Has Morales not broken the constitution? So I see nothing wrong with him being kicked out even by a coup as long as the coup conducts a proper election with Moraleses party taking part. Which is happening right now on the 18th.
3) Has Lukashenko not been an unmitigated disaster recently both socially and economically? He basically imprisoned his opposition and still lost to a wife of one of the opposition leaders.

When i posted "end of Maduro" thread i never thought that he will survive for so long by torturing his people so much. Morales case was pretty simple. Lukashenko on the other hand is mysterious because it can go both ways. The opposition seems to be fully non-violent but that seems to be more of a weakness than a benefit because nothing stops Lukashenko from just ingoring them for months like he is doing it right now.


@JohnRawls , I'm not ''obsessed'' with you, instead I'm interested in what you have to say. The fact that I usually don't agree with you-perhaps that is unsettling.

As for Maduro and and the rest, it's really the last gasp of an out of touch elite to intervene in the affairs of his country as with Syria and Belarus, and many more besides. That you are an unironic apologist for intervention is as I said-Interesting.
#15125241
annatar1914 wrote:@JohnRawls , I'm not ''obsessed'' with you, instead I'm interested in what you have to say. The fact that I usually don't agree with you-perhaps that is unsettling.

As for Maduro and and the rest, it's really the last gasp of an out of touch elite to intervene in the affairs of his country as with Syria and Belarus, and many more besides. That you are an unironic apologist for intervention is as I said-Interesting.


See, here is the difference between us. You view it as an unwanted intervention of the out of touch elites from X. I view it as last struggles of unjust and corrupt regimes against foreign and domestic forces of change. It doesn't mean that your argument regarding intervention doesn't hold value though. There is a line somewhere between my ideas and your ideas. I guess this philosophical line lyies somewhere in the realm of justice for me. If I consider a regime just then it is an intervention/coup. If i consider the regime unjust then it is struggle against forces of change or "good" of sorts.
#15125247
JohnRawls wrote: I guess this philosophical line lyies somewhere in the realm of justice for me. If I consider a regime just then it is an intervention/coup. If i consider the regime unjust then it is struggle against forces of change or "good" of sorts.


I suspect that your idea of ''good'' and mine do not coincide. And in any case, you're willing to have people killed to carry it out, your Jacobin fantasy, not as unfortunate side effect but as the cost of seeing your vision implemented.
#15125276
Just to add a little comic relief. What if Trump, needing an October surprise, and with his covid gambit falling on its face, decided to intervene and punch Turkey in the nose?

It would be wildly popular here in the states where Turkey falls somewhere between child molester and lawyer right at the moment. It would be nice to boot Turkey from Nato and impose HUGE sanctions. Turkey is useless to the US these days and the only reason Russia tolerates Turkey is as an irritant to the US. Nobody benefits from a regionally powerful Turkey. Not even, it appears, Turkey.

If I was president I would have a little fun with this. I would order Turkey to stop this shit, impose sanctions within 48 hours if they don't stop, and send a couple of carrier battle groups just so everyone knows that Erdogan got spanked. He has deserved a spanking for a long time.

It would be nice if the EU would slap some sanctions on as well. Hell. We might even get China to play. The thing that Erdogan looks best in is exile.
#15125284
Drlee wrote:Just to add a little comic relief. What if Trump, needing an October surprise, and with his covid gambit falling on its face, decided to intervene and punch Turkey in the nose?

It would be wildly popular here in the states where Turkey falls somewhere between child molester and lawyer right at the moment. It would be nice to boot Turkey from Nato and impose HUGE sanctions. Turkey is useless to the US these days and the only reason Russia tolerates Turkey is as an irritant to the US. Nobody benefits from a regionally powerful Turkey. Not even, it appears, Turkey.

If I was president I would have a little fun with this. I would order Turkey to stop this shit, impose sanctions within 48 hours if they don't stop, and send a couple of carrier battle groups just so everyone knows that Erdogan got spanked. He has deserved a spanking for a long time.

It would be nice if the EU would slap some sanctions on as well. Hell. We might even get China to play. The thing that Erdogan looks best in is exile.


Aside from the political commentary on Trump which is gratuitous, not a bad idea. However, I think that China has a hand in this conflict and so probably won't take part in any sanctions. Nobody in the West is going to do anything about this conflict, because this is a conflict that sets a fire in the Caucasus region to occupy Russia's attention somewhat.
#15126404
Atlantis wrote:A short summary of the conflict:



That seemed very one-sided (pro-Armenia partisan) and propagandistic.

On the factual front, the main question I had was how they portrayed the residence of Nargona Karabakh as welcoming Armenian invasion in the early 1990s war. I don't doubt that a contingency of Armenians living there would have welcomed an invasion, but I question the scope of these sentiments among the residents, as my understanding is that the majority of the current residents side with Azerbaijan. Again, this is my understanding, I am not certain. But anyone should be able to recognize the slanted nature of that video, which is the general way of Western media foreign conflict coverage. I have no doubt that ABC News was given the script by the Pentagon.
#15126409
Crantag wrote:That seemed very one-sided (pro-Armenia partisan) and propagandistic.

On the factual front, the main question I had was how they portrayed the residence of Nargona Karabakh as welcoming Armenian invasion in the early 1990s war. I don't doubt that a contingency of Armenians living there would have welcomed an invasion, but I question the scope of these sentiments among the residents, as my understanding is that the majority of the current residents side with Azerbaijan. Again, this is my understanding, I am not certain. But anyone should be able to recognize the slanted nature of that video, which is the general way of Western media foreign conflict coverage. I have no doubt that ABC News was given the script by the Pentagon.


Azerbaijan nor even Armenia proper really is not running things in Nagorno-Karabakh. The residents there (mainly Armenians) govern themselves calling their government the ''Republic of Artsakh'', after the ancient province of the Kingdom of Armenia Nagorno-Karabakh that it used to be.
#15126427
Crantag wrote:That seemed very one-sided (pro-Armenia partisan) and propagandistic.

On the factual front, the main question I had was how they portrayed the residence of Nargona Karabakh as welcoming Armenian invasion in the early 1990s war. I don't doubt that a contingency of Armenians living there would have welcomed an invasion, but I question the scope of these sentiments among the residents, as my understanding is that the majority of the current residents side with Azerbaijan. Again, this is my understanding, I am not certain. But anyone should be able to recognize the slanted nature of that video, which is the general way of Western media foreign conflict coverage. I have no doubt that ABC News was given the script by the Pentagon.


Your understanding is incorrect. Artsakh is inhabited by Armenians not Azerbaijanis. That is over 90% Armenians. I found the video extremely propagandistic in favour of Azerbaijan and Turkey. It did not mention that Turkey has taken over the invasion management from Azerbaijan(that alone is fact enough to declare this a pro-Turkish propaganda video), did not mention that Turkey has vowed to make war in all its neighbours to undo the Lausanne Treaty, did not mention that Turkey genocided Armenians in the past. Did not mention that both Azerbaijan and Turkey have openly and explicitly said that their policy is to ethnic-cleanse the Armenians from Artsakh. It used neutral language like "disputed territories and areas claimed by both", when in fact it should have said:

"Turkey invades Armenian territories from Azerbaijan to ethnic-cleanse its native population, also tried to invade Greece last month but failed, occupied a new territory on the south of the South of Cyprus, broke the UN ceasefire agreement, turned the Greatest Christian Church into a Mosque violating the Peace Treaty that settled WW1, is invading Syria and Libya and moving jihadist groups around from one theatre to another".
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