German defence minister to Macron: "EU needs US security guarantees" - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15138582
Politico wrote:German defense minister to Macron: EU depends on US security guarantee
Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer says the EU needs more independence but will still depend on the US.

German Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer doubled down Tuesday on her assertion that Europe must continue to rely on U.S. security guarantees, citing “sobering facts” in a response to criticism from French President Emmanuel Macron.

Kramp-Karrenbauer had become embroiled in an unusual public spat with Macron after the latter, in an interview with Le Grand Continent published Monday, criticized her over an op-ed in POLITICO in which she had argued that “Europe still needs America.”

The French president said that he “profoundly” disagrees with Kramp-Karrenbauer’s position and described her argument as “a historical misinterpretation,” claiming that German Chancellor Angela Merkel doesn’t agree either.


In a keynote speech on security policy Tuesday, Kramp-Karrenbauer tried to calm tensions by saying she agrees with Macron that Europe must do more to look after itself. “Only if we take our own security seriously, America will do the same. The French president has just stated this. And I agree with him,” she said.

Yet the defense minister did not back down on her core argument — her insistence that the EU has no choice but to depend on the U.S. as a close partner. “For the foreseeable future” the U.S. will remain “the most important ally in security and defense policy,” Kramp-Karrenbauer told the German army university in Hamburg in a virtual speech.

“Without the nuclear and conventional capabilities of the U.S., Germany and Europe cannot protect themselves. These are the sobering facts,” she added.

Kramp-Karrenbauer’s speech repeated, and defended, many arguments made during a previous speech in October as well as in the POLITICO op-ed in early November, in which the minister had argued that “illusions of European strategic autonomy must come to an end” because “Europeans will not be able to replace America’s crucial role as a security provider.”

Strategic autonomy is a concept championed by Macron, who argues the EU should become more powerful on the world stage and able to operate independently in a wide range of areas, from military operations to industrial policy — especially since the U.S. is increasingly shifting its focus from Europe to Asia.

“The idea of a strategic autonomy for Europe goes too far if it feeds the illusion that we could guarantee security, stability and prosperity in Europe without NATO and without the U.S.,” Kramp-Karrenbauer told her audience.

She also referred to a speech by German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier last week, who had warned that relying exclusively on military protection from the U.S. “would drive Europe into division” — seemingly alluding to the fact that French or Italian militaries, for example, might not be able or willing to defend the Baltic states against potential aggression from Russia as NATO and the U.S. currently do.

But Kramp-Karrenbauer said that Germany and France are united in wanting to increase Europe’s military capability.

“Germany and France want the Europeans to be able to act independently and effectively in the future when it matters,” she said. “We need the ability, in the event of a situation in which, for example, interests between the U.S. and Europe differ, that we can then potentially take action ourselves, even without the concrete support of the American side.”

Yet, “this is something completely different from believing that a European army — however it might be set up and composed — can keep America completely out of Europe and replace America completely,” Kramp-Karrenbauer said.

“We want Europe to be a strong partner for the United States on an equal footing and not a protegé in need of help,” she added.


Germany needs the USA to point her fingers at if anything goes wrong in the neighbourhood and as cover to maintain her complicit "neutrality" when it comes to Russia and Turkey.

Basically, the German Defense Minister(and Merkel replacement hopeful) is not really talking to Macron or Europe, she is talking to Erdogan and the Turkish voters in Germany. She is reassuring them that Germany will not allow France to rally Europe against their aggressive ambitions in the EU, no matter what. She is seeking Erdogan's endorsement so that he orders that she takes all the Turkish votes in Germany to make her the new Chancellor.

Frankly, I really do not see how all this German grovelling before Erdogan is not inducing vomit to self-respecting Germans and Europeans. Germany is going out of her way to insult its own self in order to empty Macron's attempts to unite Europe before an extremist threat !!!

Right when you thought shit could not get any more surreal.
#15138710
@noemon, you have a distorted mind. This has nothing to do with Erdogan. Erdogan is universally hated in Germany.

While I disagree with the German defense minister (who will most certainly not succeed Merkel) her position is also understandable since Germany has relied on its security relationship with the US for over 70 years. In the short term, there is no European partner willing to fulfill that role. Macron is all talk, but no action. The French have always seen the EU as a means to perpetuate French glory. As for the rest, there is plenty of backstabbing but no sustained effort. Greeks are always willing to suck US dick.
#15138723
Germany is nothing more than a puppet of USA, due to their history. Since WW2, they've become dependent on the US, and can't cut the umbilical cord. It's convenient for everyone. It allows the US to use Germany as a base. And it allows Germany to avoid spending money on their military and conduct operations.

Problem is that Europe cannot be really independent under such policies, and Macron knows that.
#15138847
Germany is nothing more than a puppet of Erdogan & Turkey. This has absolutely nothing to do with the US or NATO.

President Macron built his case for the EU to have its own strategic autonomy so that the EU can respond to military threats [currently by Turkey], crises and environmental issues more coordinated and more successfully. German politicians went out of their way to pre-empt him.

Erdogan is attacking Greece and Europe with military means and terrorism while Germany is the one preventing the EU from taking any action, constantly blocking sanctions against Erdogan's aggression, refusing to stop the naval exports used to attack EU territory when even the US(both under Trump & Biden) & Canada have stopped the arms exports to Turkey.

Germany is clearly on a path to destroy the EU and her credibility. Any country who decided to become closer to the EU was invaded and destroyed by Germany's partners Russia and Turkey. Ukraine, Georgia and Armenia were destroyed so that Germany can get natural gas from Nordstream(Russia) and TAP(Azerbaijan) and Greece is currently being invaded with the blessings and support of Germany for the sake of naval export sales to Turkey and the Turkish votes in Germany.

Germany is also the one who forced Macron to stand down with Brexit and permitted the Brexit deal that totally satisfies Boris Johnson, throwing under the bus the pro-EU SNP in Scotland. Perhaps Germany has decided that the EU run its course.
#15138944
She is telling France that Germany does not have her back.

A rather significant thing to say to your closest partner in the world.

Germany has just told Europe, that Erdogan is more important than Macron.

Merkel has minced through several EU leaders, emptying them, hanging them out to dry and eventually forcing their departure or killing their re-election.
#15138947
noemon wrote:...throwing under the bus the pro-EU SNP in Scotland.


Actually Scotland need a deal for Independence to transition with ease and have any possible chance of success as over 60% of their would be international trade is with the rest of the UK. Membership will be fast tracked and any deal will apply to them as well. All the debate last time over tariffs and being left out in the dark in the UK market by being outside of Europe (ie the reverse to now) can't apply this time with a deal.
#15138956
noemon wrote:Scottish independence is not somewhere on the horizon.


Don't you not think? The tide has changed, polls have exceeded 50% for a while now and Johnson dropped a clanger. This can't go on forever and after Covid19 and the will be SNP local election landslide, the noise will be defining. Ignoring didn't work in Ireland and it won't work in Scotland.

Although Sturgeon has been crowing for a deal since day one. They want a deal more than Johnson I can assure you.
#15138963
The quote from the German defense minister in the OP is part of an ongoing debate in Germany and to some extend in France about which I posted some time ago:

Macron: Nato is brain-dead

That debate or the fact that there are different opinions in a country the size of Germany is of course of no interest whatsoever to @noemon, whose sole purpose in life it is to feed his pathological hatred.

The defense minister's opinion can be discounted since she has lost the bid for party leadership and miserably failed in the few months she tried.

B0ycey wrote:Actually Scotland need a deal for Independence to transition with ease and have any possible chance of success as over 60% of their would be international trade is with the rest of the UK. Membership will be fast tracked and any deal will apply to them as well. All the debate last time over tariffs and being left out in the dark in the UK market by being outside of Europe (ie the reverse to now) can't apply this time with a deal.


You can spare your breath. This has nothing to do with Scotland. This is solely about @noemon's pathological hatred for Germany.

lancer345 wrote:Germany is nothing more than a puppet of USA, due to their history. Since WW2, they've become dependent on the US, and can't cut the umbilical cord. It's convenient for everyone. It allows the US to use Germany as a base. And it allows Germany to avoid spending money on their military and conduct operations.


True, this is a logical consequence of history. Germans have gotten used to the US calling the shots. It's not about the money, though. Spending money on defense would result in economic benefits for Germany. The US would collapse without its defense industry.

Problem is that Europe cannot be really independent under such policies, and Macron knows that.


Problem is that Macron is all talk and no action. No French president will be willing to replace the US nuclear deterrent with the force de frappe. Every single thought experiment in that direction has failed for at least 50 years.

While there are projects for European defense cooperation, most countries especially Eastern Europeans are lukewarm because they count on the US. Brexit and Trump have given an impetus for European defense cooperation, but so far, Germany doesn't have any reliable partners in Europe to replace the US deterrent.

Anyways, if Germany were to rearm, everybody would scream that the Nazis are at it again. It's damned if they do and damned if they don't. The German minister for the economy and energy even proposed to keep on spending 1.5% of GDP while giving 0.5% of GPD to the EU and/or the Eastern members to fulfill Nato's 2%.

That degree of self-denial is painful to witness. The amount of resources wasted by the US and Nato on defense even though there is no rival anywhere near that defense outlay is sheer sin at the time of climate change.

We need to make peace with Russia and reduce defense spending. Unfortunately, that's not an easy task with the hostility towards Russia in Eastern Europe. Thus, create unity in Europe, then we can have a common foreign policy and a common defense. Until members stop exploiting the EU for their narrow jingoistic agenda, all of that won't go anywhere.

But the time for rapprochement may have already been past with Putin going rogue. With the coup in Ukraine, the Yankee imperialists threw a spanner into EU-Russia cooperation. They were obviously rattled by the axis Moscow-Berlin-Paris during the Iraq war.

While I have always supported Macron in this forum, I have had no illusions about the French president who sucked up to Trump or the butcher of Riyad to push French arms for bombing Yemen back into the stone age.

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#15139083
Atlantis wrote:You can spare your breath. This has nothing to do with Scotland. This is solely about @noemon's pathological hatred for Germany.


For German ultra-nationalists like yourself any mention of German foreign policy is "German-hatred". It is in deed impossible to discuss anything Germany does without you attacking your interlocutor. Germany has been playing another one of your games with Erdogan on our Greek, French & Austrian backs, you have been playing it for months and months over several EU summits, if Germany refuses substantial economic and arms sanctions again on December after Turkey repeatedly making you fools by removing her ships 1 day before and putting them back at sea 1 day after the summits then Germany can not and must not be trusted with anything again. These are the same kind of games you played with Russia in the Ukraine and Georgia and same kind of game you played with Turkey in Armenia, all words and no action. You are not fooling anybody, this is not a one-off example, this is serial behaviour proactively enabling aggression & terrorism. You 're possibly the only western country that is refusing to suspend arms and naval sales to Turkey while Turkey is pointing your German ships and submarines at the EU itself!!!

Germany telling France that "she does not have her back" is not my fault or my doing in any way shape or form.

Germany blocking sanctions against Turkey despite her military invasion inside official EU waters is once again not my doing in any way shape or form.

The fact that Germany has forced the EU for the past 10 years to sit idly while Russia has invaded every single pro-EU government in the EU's periphery is once again not my fault either.

The fact that Germany forced the EU to sit idly while Armenians were being ethnic-cleansed again by Turkey is also not my bloody fault.

It is German actions that prove that Germany has no credibility whatsoever.

She just told her closest ally and partner that France cannot rely on Germany. Your politicians went out of their way to make this clear to Europe and the world. :knife:

You think that shooting the messenger somehow justifies German politics. It doesn't.

You also think that while this forum and myself criticise everything that moves in the political arena somehow Germany's politics should only be seen from the perspective of German ultra-nationalists like yourself when even you cannot justify these politics and have to resort to massive insults and ad-homs to maintain the pretext of a response. You also expect that if Germany does something really stupid like the above, then we should not mention it at all but rather let it pass in silence cause otherwise we are "hating on Germany" even if mistakes like these affect our physical security. You adamantly believe that German PR is far more important than European lives.
#15139244
This seems like a repeat of world history.

Germany sided with the Turks during the First World War, but the informal alliance and cooperation wasn't limited to that just that one incident.

Germany probably sees no reason to break the supply chain and make Turkey give up reliance on German industrial production, based on some conflict that might not even happen.
Germany is very export-focused after all, one of the main reasons they have a stronger economy than other EU countries.

This type of thing could put increasing strain on the cohesiveness of the EU, since different countries are going to have different aims and motivations.

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