[Suchard]

EU chief felt 'hurt,' 'alone' at meeting with Turkish leader
European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said Monday that she felt hurt and alone during a meeting with Turkey’s president earlier this month and that she was treated poorly simply because she is a woman.
Von der Leyen and European Council President Charles Michel met with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan in Ankara for talks on tense EU-Turkey relations earlier this month. But only two chairs were set out in front of the EU and Turkish flags for the three leaders. Michel took the chair next to Erdogan.

Von der Leyen stood looking at the seated men, expressing her astonishment with an “ehm” sound, and a gesture of disappointment. She was later seen seated on a large beige sofa, away from her male counterparts.

“I am the first woman to be president of the European Commission. I am the president of the European Commission, and this is how I expected to be treated when visiting Turkey two weeks ago. Like a commission president, but I was not,” von der Leyen told EU lawmakers.
https://www.mail.com/int/scitech/health/10737476-eu-chief-felt-hurt-alone-meeting-with-turkish-lead.html#.1272-stage-hero1-3

[B0ycey]

EU chief felt 'hurt,' 'alone' at meeting with Turkish leader
European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said Monday that she felt hurt and alone during a meeting with Turkey’s president earlier this month and that she was treated poorly simply because she is a woman.
Von der Leyen and European Council President Charles Michel met with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan in Ankara for talks on tense EU-Turkey relations earlier this month. But only two chairs were set out in front of the EU and Turkish flags for the three leaders. Michel took the chair next to Erdogan.

Von der Leyen stood looking at the seated men, expressing her astonishment with an “ehm” sound, and a gesture of disappointment. She was later seen seated on a large beige sofa, away from her male counterparts.

“I am the first woman to be president of the European Commission. I am the president of the European Commission, and this is how I expected to be treated when visiting Turkey two weeks ago. Like a commission president, but I was not,” von der Leyen told EU lawmakers.
https://www.mail.com/int/scitech/health/10737476-eu-chief-felt-hurt-alone-meeting-with-turkish-lead.html#.1272-stage-hero1-3

Start a thread on this. Not about the banner but the sexism claim. It would be interesting to read peoples opinions on this.

[Suchard]

Start a thread on this. Not about the banner but the sexism claim. It would be interesting to read peoples opinions on this.

You might be right and I would consider doing this but having Charles Michel's face representing the European Union is ignoring Ursula von der Leyen and I do not believe this is due to sexism but ignorance of how the EU works.

[B0ycey]

...Ursula von der Leyen and I do not believe this is due to sexism but ignorance of how the EU works.

My opinion is this is a funny story with a serious undertone. I would like to know why there was only two chairs before making an actual judgement. Was Erdogan expecting only Michel or Leyen and got both? I don't know. But Turkey is blaming the EU for the fuck up so it would be interesting if they could elaborate.

As for Sexism, I doubt that was intentional. And if it was I would say Michel was more at fault as surely the two chairs should have been for the Commissioner and the President. I don't like sexism claims being thrown in without merit because it ultimately detracts the movement and in a way makes people unsympathetic towards it. But even so, as I said the blame can only be laided at Michels feet anyway and unless Leyen is claiming there is sexism in the EU or that Michel is sexist, I don't really know why she has made this claim. Was it to put pressure on Erdogan or does she think making a women sit on a coach is sexist?

[noemon]

Erdogan set it up as a sexist exercise to humiliate both EU Presidents.

Last time the pair of EU presidents(Council & Commission) were in Turkey, they were both offered the same chairs.

The argument that "Turkey is not aware how the EU works" is certainly not true.

[Suchard]

My opinion is this is a funny story with a serious undertone. I would like to know why there was only two chairs before making an actual judgement. Was Erdogan expecting only Michel or Leyen and got both? I don't know. But Turkey is blaming the EU for the fuck up so it would be interesting if they could elaborate.

As for Sexism, I doubt that was intentional. And if it was I would say Michel was more at fault as surely the two chairs should have been for the Commissioner and the President. I don't like sexism claims being thrown in without merit because it ultimately detracts the movement and in a way makes people unsympathetic towards it. But even so, as I said the blame can only be laided at Michels feet anyway and unless Leyen is claiming there is sexism in the EU or that Michel is sexist, I don't really know why she has made this claim. Was it to put pressure on Erdogan or does she think making a women sit on a coach is sexist?

Admin Edit: Rule 16 Violation


As for the action of Turkey, I am inclined to believe the Turks messed up the protocol and, as is usual for that NATO country, the Turks never accept blame for their behavior. I do not know what explanation they put forward for having only one chair to represent the EU when two presidents of equal standing were present for the conference. Clearly Ursula von der Leyen was upset when Charles Michel took the single seat. That was his decision, not the Turks. I fully agree with you; Michel should have sat next to the president of the Commission on the sofa. It was the baldy man with the beard who was entirely at fault. Why? And here is where we might speculate what was in his mind. Like the designer of the PF header, he might have decided to act as the representative of the EU because he actually believes this. I cannot accept this. He knows better. The only explanation can be that he does not respect the President of the Commission as his equal. We all get that. Is it because she is a woman? Maybe. Ursula von der Leyen works with Charles Michel and understands how his mind works. Who did she blame? She did not blame the Turks but did blame Michel for taking the seat on the single chair. There is a history between the pair and if she suggests sexism then she is calling Michel a sexist. There is no truth to the rumor that when she confronted Michel afterward that he replied, "But my picture is on the PoliticalForum banner as the sole representative of the EU." Ha! Ha!

[B0ycey]

Admin Edit: Rule 16 Violation

As for the action of Turkey, I am inclined to believe the Turks messed up the protocol and, as is usual for that NATO country, the Turks never accept blame for their behavior. I do not know what explanation they put forward for having only one chair to represent the EU when two presidents of equal standing were present for the conference. Clearly Ursula von der Leyen was upset when Charles Michel took the single seat. That was his decision, not the Turks. I fully agree with you; Michel should have sat next to the president of the Commission on the sofa. It was the baldy man with the beard who was entirely at fault. Why? And here is where we might speculate what was in his mind. Like the designer of the PF header, he might have decided to act as the representative of the EU because he actually believes this. I cannot accept this. He knows better. The only explanation can be that he does not respect the President of the Commission as his equal. We all get that. Is it because she is a woman? Maybe. Ursula von der Leyen works with Charles Michel and understands how his mind works. Who did she blame? She did not blame the Turks but did blame Michel for taking the seat on the single chair. There is a history between the pair and if she suggests sexism then she is calling Michel a sexist. There is no truth to the rumor that when she confronted Michel afterward that he replied, "But my picture is on the PoliticalForum banner as the sole representative of the EU." Ha! Ha!

Well I am only discussing the issue of Sexism given that was Leyens complaint. I do not understand why only two chairs was brought out but Turkey blames the EU for the mistake anyway. But to accuse Turkey of sexism is to accuse them of two intentional acts, one of which would be almost impossible to pull off. The one is they only pulled out two chairs because of Leyens involvement and the second would be to position her in a way without her knowing so Michel had to sit down on the chair and not her. I don't see them doing that so this mishap can not be intentional in terms of Turkeys actions and as such they shouldn'tbe accused of Sexism. Which then goes back to Michel. He should have given up the chair not because Leyen was female but because she was the Commissioner. The fact he didn't means he was either ignorant or sexist. I don't think he was sexist I just don't think he thought Leyen sitting on the sofa was such a big deal. And perhaps if the sofa was closer to Erdogan he might have had a point. And I suspect that was what Leyen was actually upset about, not being closer to Erdogan. And given they didn't get what they went to Turkey for I suspect sexism is as good as any other claim to put pressure on Erdogan. Because from my perspective Michel was more to blame for the sexism fiasco than Erdogan by the mere fact he never gave up the seat he shouldn't have sat on to begin with.

[noemon]

By that logic(that somehow is up to the guests to confront the host), VDL should not have sat anywhere and simply walked out of the room but both VDL and Michel chose the path of least confrontation as is naturally expected in these occasions, though clearly there should be limits on how far one can undermine their principles to accommodate another party.

Michel does take priority as the Council takes priority over the Commission, officially.

Anyone with basic EU knowledge knows that the Council is the ultimate/sovereign body of the EU and not the Commission(appointed by the Council), or the Parliament(can only discuss topics brought by the Council via the Commission).

However, that does not mean that precedent did not demand that both sit in the same chair as they had before in Turkey.

Turkey and Erdogan were consciously being sexist and anti-European on purpose as Von Der Leyen was there to talk about Turkey's decision to withdraw from a women's rights treaty and the Turkish aggression against EU members.

Erdogan and Cavusoglou eventually got their reply by Hellenic Foreign Minister Nikos Dendias who simply put things in place by talking about everything openly in front of the cameras. This apparently shocked the Turkish FM who thought he had another Merkel, Michel or VDL in his hands to play to the Turkish public.

They were arguing for 35 minutes until the Turkish FM said that 'food for dinner is getting cold'. He had provided quite a show earlier.

[JohnRawls]

EU chief felt 'hurt,' 'alone' at meeting with Turkish leader
European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said Monday that she felt hurt and alone during a meeting with Turkey’s president earlier this month and that she was treated poorly simply because she is a woman.
Von der Leyen and European Council President Charles Michel met with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan in Ankara for talks on tense EU-Turkey relations earlier this month. But only two chairs were set out in front of the EU and Turkish flags for the three leaders. Michel took the chair next to Erdogan.

Von der Leyen stood looking at the seated men, expressing her astonishment with an “ehm” sound, and a gesture of disappointment. She was later seen seated on a large beige sofa, away from her male counterparts.

“I am the first woman to be president of the European Commission. I am the president of the European Commission, and this is how I expected to be treated when visiting Turkey two weeks ago. Like a commission president, but I was not,” von der Leyen told EU lawmakers.
https://www.mail.com/int/scitech/health/10737476-eu-chief-felt-hurt-alone-meeting-with-turkish-lead.html#.1272-stage-hero1-3

VDL has a history of scapegoating and trying to pretend like she is not at fault and is the victim in a lot of cases. Although this might sound cynical but she is doing just that right now. Trying to pretend that she felt hurt not to show that she mishandled the situation in one form or the other. She had all the chances to walk away or do anything she wanted about it. She didn't, the brain was not fast or robust enough. Merkel would have figured out something. It is VDLs job for christ sake.

[Suchard]

VDL has a history of scapegoating and trying to pretend like she is not at fault and is the victim in a lot of cases. Although this might sound cynical but she is doing just that right now. Trying to pretend that she felt hurt not to show that she mishandled the situation in one form or the other. She had all the chances to walk away or do anything she wanted about it. She didn't, the brain was not fast or robust enough. Merkel would have figured out something. It is VDLs job for christ sake.

You think Ursula von der Leyen should have left the meeting or done something else. If she had walked away she would have conceeded defeat. She could not do this because she represents the EU Commission and were she to leave then it was the Commission which would have been downgraded by the Council president. Of course, she had to stay and fight for the status of the Commission. So what else could she have done which would have protected the status of the Commission? Tell us.

[JohnRawls]

You think Ursula von der Leyen should have left the meeting or done something else. If she had walked away she would have conceeded defeat. She could not do this because she represents the EU Commission and were she to leave then it was the Commission which would have been downgraded by the Council president. Of course, she had to stay and fight for the status of the Commission. So what else could she have done which would have protected the status of the Commission? Tell us.

Left the meeting for example. If Diplomatic decor is not followed then it is an easy reason to do so. If you think that the meeting would have continued without her then you are mistaken.

[Ganeshas Rat]

Fuck them both. We don't expect from a person of such position and power to be 'hurt and alone', she's like a third-grade shy kid or what? If someone insults you you insult them back (by leaving for example). No, actually fuck all three of them. Oh, the European commission president didn't get a chair but the European council president did? What a gift! What a gift! Finally I can have somewhere to put my ass on, hurry on! You don't sit while a woman present has no seat, you just don't, that's European values and not 'fighting against sexism'.

[Istanbuller]

Sexism accusations are false. Turkey had a woman prime minister back in 1990's.

But in muslim culture, you expect that man comes before woman. That is cultural. No disrespect.

[noemon]

You think Ursula von der Leyen should have left the meeting or done something else. If she had walked away she would have conceeded defeat.
She could not do this because she represents the EU Commission and were she to leave then it was the Commission which would have been downgraded by the Council president. Of course, she had to stay and fight for the status of the Commission. So what else could she have done which would have protected the status of the Commission? Tell us.

Leaving the meeting is not conceding defeat, but asserting one's self.

VDL and Michel fell on Erdogan's trap to humiliate them.

They could have chosen to confront the person attempting to humiliate them but they didn't.

There is no difference to what they both did. Instead of whining over spilt milk, they can both take proper action against Turkey, both in terms of women's rights, and freedom of the press and Turkish aggression against their neighbours as well as be more prepared for when foreign or Turkish leaders try to set a PR trap for them.

[Istanbuller]

Leaving the meeting is not conceding defeat, but asserting one's self.

VDL and Michel fell on Erdogan's trap to humiliate them.

They could have chosen to confront the person attempting to humiliate them but they didn't.

There is no difference to what they both did. Instead of whining over spilt milk, they can both take proper action against Turkey, both in terms of women's rights, and freedom of the press and Turkish aggression against their neighbours as well as be more prepared for when foreign or Turkish leaders try to set a PR trap for them.

If they left the room, then Turkey would accuse Europe for racism and hypocrisy. That would still be a win for Turkey. Erdoğan could easily propagandize it.

[Istanbuller]

Best thing Turkey can do is sending apologies to this lady for mistreatment. Let's see if Ankara can figure out this solution.

[JohnRawls]

If they left the room, then Turkey would accuse Europe for racism and hypocrisy. That would still be a win for Turkey. Erdoğan could easily propagandize it.

Within Turkey and at the expense of Turkish prosperity but Europeans wouldn't care about that. We expect Erdogan to act this way.

[Istanbuller]

Within Turkey and at the expense of Turkish prosperity but Europeans wouldn't care about that. We expect Erdogan to act this way.

Isn't it what is important? The purpose is to win elections. This also diverts attention from economy to other things. If Erdoğan can convience the public, he can sit as the president for another 5 years. Everybody knows the EU will never accept Turkey so forget about friendly relations.

Erdoğan does not feel comfortable as much as you think. Turkish politics is so dynamic. He faces serious rivals.

[JohnRawls]

Isn't it what is important? The purpose is to win elections. This also diverts attention from economy to other things. If Erdoğan can convience the public, he can sit as the president for another 5 years. Everybody knows the EU will never accept Turkey so forget about friendly relations.

Erdoğan does not feel comfortable as much as you think. Turkish politics is so dynamic. He faces serious rivals.

I mean, for Erdogan sure it is important. But it is a road to nowhere for Turkey as a country and its people. Kinda similar to what is happening in Russia to be honest. Erdogan just had the opportunity to purge the main opposition due to the coup while Russian opposition is more peaceful or less inserted in to the military of sorts who knows.

[Ganeshas Rat]

Obviously it's less inserted. The whole structure of Kemalist Turkey is based on the fact that once for a few years when yet another shithead realizes he is a sultan and even a kaliph military types come to make a short coup and reestablish kemalism. The only difference with Erdogan is that he somehow managed to break the mechanism and decimate the army.