Hartlepool By-Election - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in Europe's nation states, the E.U. & Russia.

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By B0ycey
#15171229
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57019456

Fuck me England is turning into a complete shithole when they can't even defeat the Tories in the North. We have lost this generation. I like Starmer but we need someone like Long Bailey in. Old Labour might not win an election right now but it did have momentum under Corbyn and frankly that is what the party needs. Also, can we have a Pro EU party back please. Seems everyone has gone to the Greens.
#15171251
B0ycey wrote:Fuck me England is turning into a complete shithole when they can't even defeat the Tories in the North. We have lost this generation. I like Starmer but we need someone like Long Bailey in. Old Labour might not win an election right now but it did have momentum under Corbyn and frankly that is what the party needs. Also, can we have a Pro EU party back please. Seems everyone has gone to the Greens.

Like the US, the UK is blighted by a system that however much it styles itself as a multi-party democracy is in fact a two-party state. No point voting Green - or Liberal Democrat - only the Tories or Labour had any prospect of being able to form a government and now Labour are navel-gazing about their own, self-inflicted demise.

My read of the situation (as a Lib Dem) is that the appetite in England for the sort of hard-left socialism of Momentum is far lower than the die-hard socialists recognise, much less admit.

There is no more appetite at a grassroots level for much of what the Tories stand for either, but in a two-party setup the average voter's only option if they want their vote to count as anything other than a protest vote is to hold their noses and vote Tory.

It's time Labour formally split to let the Momentumites join with other socialists and communists in their minority irrelevance and allow the moderate, centrist members of the party to form a more relevant socially democratic party that would attract votes.

It's also way past time that we completely reform parliament and the electoral system to properly reflect the fact that neither England, the UK or the World are, in reality, divided exclusively into 'duh Left' and 'duh Right'.
By B0ycey
#15171258
Cartertonian wrote:My read of the situation (as a Lib Dem) is that the appetite in England for the sort of hard-left socialism of Momentum is far lower than the die-hard socialists recognise, much less admit.


Man, I just want those dirty Tories out Cartertonian. They have had so much luck with Covid19, that the focus on the vaccine roll out is masking all their other fuck ups - namely BoJos pile high comments and his Downing Street refurb. I am glad to read you are a Lib Dem by the way. I must admit I voted Labour this time.

As for Hard-Left Socialism, Corbyn wasn't really Hard-Left. Not by the standards we read on PoFo in any case. I would class him as a Social Democrat with popular policies that many would have voted for if his past affiliations wasn't used against him all the time. Which then goes back to Labour. Labour shouldn't have returned to Blairiteism on which the Tories have basically taken that ground off them anyway. They need to return to their roots which is Old Labour. Corbyn did gain the youth vote and brought new members to the party in which will be paramount given we can expect a recession before the next election I would say and that youth unemployment is high. Another direction is Europe. There is still 48% of voters who voted remain and who are now looking at the Greens to cast their vote. I have noticed the Green and the Lib Dems have gained their vote share for the council elections - that is not a coincidence.
#15171270
What the hell is wrong with people? I absolutely despair.
How anyone can bring themselves to vote Tory is beyond me.
I cannot see any way out of this terrible mess except for following Scotland and making London an independent state.
#15171286
Who is a Tory on PoFo? I must say I was completely unfamiliar with British politics till I would chat with @Potemkin about it. I met a few Tories on PoFo and detested them. For me they are the worst. But I guess they are the love of British people because you British voters keep voting those pendejos in all the time.

See how I provoke? Hee hee. @B0ycey I have never witnessed such horribly petty and selfish and useless politicians as the Tories. Where do they find these people I wonder?

:lol:

Let me look up famous Tories and Tories interviewed on the streets of London. Hee hee.



By B0ycey
#15171292
Tainari88 wrote:Who is a Tory on PoFo? I must say I was completely unfamiliar with British politics till I would chat with @Potemkin about it. I met a few Tories on PoFo and detested them. For me they are the worst. But I guess they are the love of British people because you British voters keep voting those pendejos in all the time.

See how I provoke? Hee hee. @B0ycey I have never witnessed such horribly petty and selfish and useless politicians as the Tories. Where do they find these people I wonder?

:lol:

Let me look up famous Tories and Tories interviewed on the streets of London. Hee hee.





There aren't that many British users on here @Tainari88 so as far as I am aware there aren't any Tories on PoFo actually. I am more interested in international politics, economics and philosophy anyway which is why I am mainly here. If there is a huge UK story I use another politics forums as they have some good users there. There are some Tory users there I might add, but I get the impression they were more concerned with Brexit and the economy rather than being hardcore supporters. I think that is why people aren't abandoning them right now. They know what Boris stands for. And Labour are trying to please both sectors of their party and ultimately pleasing no one.

As for Tories being horrible, petty and selfish, unfortunately that is what you get with a party that is Conservative. It is all about what you can do for yourself rather than what is best for the community. The UK has a lot to learn. I guess that is why there is a generation divide in UK politics right now. The youth are getting left behind and the old are spending all the tax. :hmm:
#15171319
B0ycey wrote:Corbyn wasn't really Hard-Left. Not by the standards we read on PoFo in any case. I would class him as a Social Democrat with popular policies that many would have voted for if his past affiliations wasn't used against him all the time.

Unfortunately the ghost of Joe McCarthy seems to have drifted across the pond and infected UK politics. I liked Corbyn, but he was caricatured and demonised from the off as an unreformed Communist.

Which then goes back to Labour. Labour shouldn't have returned to Blairiteism on which the Tories have basically taken that ground off them anyway. They need to return to their roots which is Old Labour.

As I intimated in my first post, I just don't think there's as much of an appetite for 'old Labour' as people think depending on quite how 'old' one takes it. Most Brits have no wish to see men in donkey-jackets, gathered around braziers and stopping them from getting on with their lives, or battling with the police. If you're going back to Attlee or earlier, that's a bit different. A modern Labour party needs to be pro-Britain and pragmatic. The current outfit is not.

Tainari88 wrote:Who is a Tory on PoFo? I must say I was completely unfamiliar with British politics till I would chat with @Potemkin about it.

Those with looooonnng memories may recall that the first sub-forum I was given after being appointed as a moderator was the Conservatism forum. Not sure why to this day - maybe it was because no-one else wanted it!! :lol: I came here after first registering at PoFoUK because that place was full of bloody Tories...and a lot of folk who were yet further right. As it's principal moderator today (only because my oppo Lewis is often too busy IRL) I can confirm that it's still full of bloody Tories! :peace:

I have huge respect for Potemkin - no, seriously - but I suspect his view of British politics is skewed a little (or a little more than mine) ;)
By B0ycey
#15171320
Cartertonian wrote:As I intimated in my first post, I just don't think there's as much of an appetite for 'old Labour' as people think depending on quite how 'old' one takes it. Most Brits have no wish to see men in donkey-jackets, gathered around braziers and stopping them from getting on with their lives, or battling with the police. If you're going back to Attlee or earlier, that's a bit different. A modern Labour party needs to be pro-Britain and pragmatic. The current outfit is not.


When I said Old Labour, what I really meant to say was social reformers looking after the working class interests, not MPs turning up to Westminster in their work uniform, strikes and picket lines. Or perhaps the better term is Corbynism given Old Labour is meaningless but merely a statement to say before New Labour and Blairiteism and something people say to suggest a return to more traditional Labour values.

Also I wouldn't go as far as to say someone like Long Bailey would win the next election as the Tories seem to have made great gains yesterday, but to say there isn't a shift in interest in the movement is ignoring Labours massive increase in membership and voting intention by age demographic when Corbyn was Labour leader. Also the Tories have four years of what may well be economic turmoil given we have had Brexit and have yet to see the aftermath of Covid. Do you think Social Democracy won't appeal to the voters during a time of high unemployment or high inflation given that is a real possibility before the next election? It is time for Labour to actually be an opposition party rather than a mimic of the Tories. Blairiteism has basically changed rosettes, Thatcher called Blair her greatest achievement and now Labour shouldn't be fighting for Brexiteer votes at all given they have all turned blue. They should look at the new upcoming demographic which is the youth vote. Do that and they may well be an opposition party rather than a dead party in a Tory supermajority next election.
#15171325
@Cartertonian wrote:
Those with looooonnng memories may recall that the first sub-forum I was given after being appointed as a moderator was the Conservatism forum. Not sure why to this day - maybe it was because no-one else wanted it!! :lol: I came here after first registering at PoFoUK because that place was full of bloody Tories...and a lot of folk who were yet further right. As it's principal moderator today (only because my oppo Lewis is often too busy IRL) I can confirm that it's still full of bloody Tories! :peace:

I have huge respect for Potemkin - no, seriously - but I suspect his view of British politics is skewed a little (or a little more than mine) ;)



Where is PoFoUK?

Anyway, I find @B0ycey quite British. But I am afraid the culture I come from is just about as opposite in every way to it. I would ask @Potemkin about British politics and he seems to know quite a lot. But, he has such a strong political position I sometimes think someone less strong in his political perspectives and more moderate would be fun to consult Cartertonian.

B0ycey I despair of him understanding Latin American political stuff. It gets hard and difficult.

But he can give it a good try one of these days. He is such a bright man.

I grew up with fiery and very politically involved parents. I was quite interested in a lot of things as a young person.

I hope you come for a visit Cartertonian to Mexico. I finally got some British guests early this year. A young man and his wife and a baby. They loved it. And found Mexico very inexpensive to live in and relaxing.

I want to visit the UK someday and learn a lot about it. I saw a movie named I, Daniel Blake by the BBC. It was depressing because it was about the run around for bureaucracy. That seems to be universally aggravating for most people. ;)

Sometimes I would be chatting with Potemkin and he would tell me, "No, that would never happen in Britain." And I would reply, "Why not?" And he would say something, like, "It is another culture." I would be kind of unsatisfied with that.

I should ask B0ycey instead. Lol. I think he lives where? In Birmingham or something?

I know a lot about the USA. Been to almost every state of the Union over a long period of time. Did a lot of traveling in the states.

Noemon mentioned Stephen Fry and I never heard of him so I wound up watching his series of videos on his road trip through the USA.

In terms of politics? I think I dislike Tony Blair, and Boris Johnson and Margaret Thatcher the most. Gordon Brown I don't know very well. Jeremy Corbyn I like, his Spanish is really fluent and he does it in a way that is culturally aware and has a lot of nuance in how he converses in Spanish. His wife Laura Alvarez is Mexican. I like him a lot as a politician but the way he campaigns is kind of timid for a Latin American (comparing styles I mean).
By B0ycey
#15171331
Potemkin is Scottish @Tainari88, I would say Scottish politics seems so different to the English politics given I believe the SNP has ran Scotland very well and as such Independence has divided the country. Also Scotland is ran on a deficit and as such they have a strong social program whereas the rest of the UK seem short changed given the Barnett formula. I think many in Scotland will have a rude awakening if they actually voted independence but given the SNP has declared duel nationality I am actually all for it given they seem to be Pro EU. Also, the UK is Anglo but they aren't American. Socialism isn't a dirty word here and I would say the British have a lot in common with Latin America being that the family unit is strong here and it isn't all about looking after ones self. And it was in Worcester (not far from Birmingham I guess) where I grew up. And I am not clueless on Latin Politics, I do reference it when topics are brought up I might add. I am not as opinionated as you are I guess given I don't live there however I can make more of an effort given I don't want to seem ignorant on it. Although I guess my knowledge wouldn't be as strong as yours given I am more educated in historic European politics rather than Latin... unless you want to discuss the Spanish Civil War which is something I know quite well.
#15171333
B0ycey wrote:Do you think Social Democracy won't appeal to the voters during a time of high unemployment or high inflation given that is a real possibility before the next election?

I think Social Democracy has broad appeal. However if Labour want to rebuild themselves then they need to be clearer about their 'offer', because a lot of people don't see them as social democrats, but as old-fashioned (and ideologically illiterate) socialists. With one or two exceptions, no-one in the Labour party wants to see us all living in tower blocks, wearing boiler suits and driving Ladas...but they need a total makeover to convince a majority-winning proportion of the electorate of that. They need to switch focus from minorities who, by definition, cannot provide them with a majority and provide a clear message to the average British voter who, in simple demographic terms, is white, heterosexual and probably of Anglo-Saxon descent. That doesn't mean they should abandon their championing of minorities, but at the moment that's the only message the electorate are hearing.

Tainari88 wrote:Where is PoFoUK?

I'd hate noemon to think I was 'poaching', but in the interests of site history, in the beginning when Siberian Fox was our 'Dear Leader'...politicsforum.co.uk was a sister site to politicsforum.org, as well as the History Forum and Soviet Empire as sites of the now effectively defunct Siberian Fox Network. When Fox sold PoFo to noemon, PoFoUK and the others were not part of the deal, but PoFoUK lives on (when Fox remembers to pay the server fees! :lol: ). Around the time that Fox was selling up, I checked in on PoFoUK and found that it was down to only one moderator (my colleague Lewis) so I volunteered to join him there. Noemon has been kind enough to keep me on here, as well.

I would ask @Potemkin about British politics and he seems to know quite a lot.

He surely does.

But, he has such a strong political position I sometimes think someone less strong in his political perspectives and more moderate would be fun to consult Cartertonian.

I have a strong political position!! In our artificially binary world, to misquote Shakespeare it's, "A plague on both your houses!" :D

I grew up with fiery and very politically involved parents. I was quite interested in a lot of things as a young person.

I grew up with a father who had no understanding of, or interest in, politics but who religiously voted Tory because - to him - they were 'the natural party of government' and putting Labour in charge was akin to 'putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum!" :lol: ... :roll:

I hope you come for a visit Cartertonian to Mexico. I finally got some British guests early this year. A young man and his wife and a baby. They loved it. And found Mexico very inexpensive to live in and relaxing.

You may not be able to answer this question, but what's the fishing like? That's inland, river fishing by the way, not sea fishing.

Sometimes I would be chatting with Potemkin and he would tell me, "No, that would never happen in Britain." And I would reply, "Why not?" And he would say something, like, "It is another culture." I would be kind of unsatisfied with that.

I should ask B0ycey instead. Lol. I think he lives where? In Birmingham or something?
Fortunately for the rest of the UK, Birmingham is not representative! :p Mind you - top tip to any potential tourists - neither is London!
#15171336
Cartertonian wrote:I think Social Democracy has broad appeal. However if Labour want to rebuild themselves then they need to be clearer about their 'offer', because a lot of people don't see them as social democrats, but as old-fashioned (and ideologically illiterate) socialists. With one or two exceptions, no-one in the Labour party wants to see us all living in tower blocks, wearing boiler suits and driving Ladas...but they need a total makeover to convince a majority-winning proportion of the electorate of that. They need to switch focus from minorities who, by definition, cannot provide them with a majority and provide a clear message to the average British voter who, in simple demographic terms, is white, heterosexual and probably of Anglo-Saxon descent. That doesn't mean they should abandon their championing of minorities, but at the moment that's the only message the electorate are hearing.


I wouldn't disagree with most of this although I don't believe Labour appealed to any race of people in particular but merely their class and class is where their focus should be in the future full stop. And yes, that is Labours problem, they don't have a clear message given they are chasing every demographic and quite frankly Blairites are now wearing blue and as such the shift in message should be Socialistic in policy given they are losing half their party. And when I say Socialistic, I'm not calling for the return of Lada or any other car manufactured by the Warsaw pact, or even the SU in British form. I am suggesting the Nordic model which was basically Corbyns manifesto promise but this time with a figurehead that has no link whatsoever to Red Action.
#15171350
Cartertonian wrote:You may not be able to answer this question, but what's the fishing like? That's inland, river fishing by the way, not sea fishing.

Rivers? In Yucatan? :eh:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
#15171351
B0ycey wrote:Potemkin is Scottish @Tainari88, I would say Scottish politics seems so different to the English politics given I believe the SNP has ran Scotland very well and as such Independence has divided the country. Also Scotland is ran on a deficit and as such they have a strong social program whereas the rest of the UK seem short changed given the Barnett formula. I think many in Scotland will have a rude awakening if they actually voted independence but given the SNP has declared duel nationality I am actually all for it given they seem to be Pro EU. Also, the UK is Anglo but they aren't American. Socialism isn't a dirty word here and I would say the British have a lot in common with Latin America being that the family unit is strong here and it isn't all about looking after ones self. And it was in Worcester (not far from Birmingham I guess) where I grew up. And I am not clueless on Latin Politics, I do reference it when topics are brought up I might add. I am not as opinionated as you are I guess given I don't live there however I can make more of an effort given I don't want to seem ignorant on it. Although I guess my knowledge wouldn't be as strong as yours given I am more educated in historic European politics rather than Latin... unless you want to discuss the Spanish Civil War which is something I know quite well.


Potemkin is Scottish but his English is not Scottish sounding. He sounds like a Mancurian from Manchester or an Englishman. I like calling him the fake Englishman because he is Scottish but his accent is not Scottish.

You did show me Worcester B0ycey I remember that!

Scottish politics looks interesting. Are they going to go off on their own there? Declare independence and come up with schemes. 8)

I would love to discuss the Spanish civil war someday with you B0ycey.

Family dynamics are interesting. In each culture and in each family it varies a lot.

How much do you know about music from specific places in Latin America? It will be fun.
#15171353
Potemkin wrote:Rivers? In Yucatan? :eh:

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Don't you laugh at his question!

@Cartertonian darling, they have deep sea fishing in the Yucatan Peninsula and good fishing in a neighboring state of Quintana Roo. There is good fishing in a pretty neighboring state called Campeche too. Yucatan has no rivers. The Yucatan had the meteor hit millions of years ago and it drove the rivers underground and it is a pancake flat landscape, surrounded by jungles and Mayan archaeological zones. Spectacular sunsets and beautiful colonial cities.

The fishing freshwater? No rivers. Potemkin is correct. There are instead cenotes.

The Yucatan has some of the most spectacular cenotes in the world. The Mayans used to write poems to the cenotes. In the heat? They were refreshing oasis.

The SNP is interesting but Potemkin doesn't vote for independence. I have my doubts of the reasons he doesn't vote for Scottish indy status. :D

@Cartertonian wrote:

Fortunately for the rest of the UK, Birmingham is not representative! :p Mind you - top tip to any potential tourists - neither is London!




Why is London and Birmingham not very representative of the UK?
Last edited by Tainari88 on 07 May 2021 22:40, edited 1 time in total.
#15171354
Cartertonian wrote:Your knowledge of Tainari's specific location exceeds mine, Pote. ;)

I'd settle for lakes...of which there appear to be a few in the Yucatan penninsula. :D

Bodies of water in Yucatan
#15171356
Tainari88 wrote:Why is London and Birmingham not very representative of the UK?

I'm probably allowing my own (rural) bias to cloud my judgement, but if you were visiting I would recommend one of the smaller, provincial cities like York, which are better ambassadors than any of the metropolitan sprawls. I've lived in Birmingham and it has a few nice parts, but I still couldn't recommend it to anyone. London is more like a theme park interwoven with a grimy, urban dystopia. Worth seeing, but not for long.
#15171357
Potemkin wrote:Bodies of water in Yucatan


When am I going to see some Loch Ness monster stereotypes of Scotland? I need some stereotypes!

I need some bagpipes and kilts and some tartan stuff and the Scottish dragoons? Or some such stereotype that you will never deal with Potemkin! :lol:

@Cartertonian 's father was a Tory. A real live one who voted for those horrors out of tradition!
#15171359
Cartertonian wrote:I'm probably allowing my own (rural) bias to cloud my judgement, but if you were visiting I would recommend one of the smaller, provincial cities like York, which are better ambassadors than any of the metropolitan sprawls. I've lived in Birmingham and it has a few nice parts, but I still couldn't recommend it to anyone. London is more like a theme park interwoven with a grimy, urban dystopia. Worth seeing, but not for long.


Grimy urban dystopia?

Is it expensive?

I am sort of like you Cartertonian. i like to go out of the big huge megacities. They tend to be similar in anxiety production.

I don't see or envision a lot of Tories making it over here to Mexico. They might sunbathe in Spain.

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