[Puffer Fish]

Several neighborhoods in Paris have turned into drug-infested ghettos.

This was entirely predictable. The same phenomena happened in the US in many large cities in the 1970s and 80s. It also exists in the surrounding favelas of many Brazilian cities.

Of course the French and Europeans have had no historical experience with this, so this phenomena is entirely new to them.

Large numbers of African migrants have settled in France, mainly in specific neighborhoods in and around Paris. The poverty and unemployment rates in these neighborhoods are often high, and drug problems are very prevalent, along with many of the social problems that come along with that.


Children Fall Victim to Vicious French Drug War

Two weeks ago a 14-year-old boy called Rayanne was shot dead by a young man on a scooter outside the Les Marronniers housing estate where he lived in northern Marseille. Two other boys - one of 14, the other aged eight - were wounded in the attack.

Over the following weekend three more people were murdered in Marseille, also in turf wars over drugs. One of them was burned alive in the boot of a car. So far this year there have been 15 gangland killings in France's second city, 12 since the start of the summer.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ch ... d=msedgntp


Many of those involved in selling drugs are young teenagers, and predictably there are drug gang killings.

[MadMonk]

World Bank - French Homicide Rate 1990-2018

Knoema - includes 2019

Significant drops in killings going back 30 years.

[Puffer Fish]

The sexual assault rate has greatly gone up over the years though.

https://www.thelocal.fr/wp-content/uplo ... .20.02.png

[Skynet]

legalize drugs, and invest in education. Drugprohibition leads to Al Capones

[ThirdTerm]

Children Fall Victim to Vicious French Drug War

Two weeks ago a 14-year-old boy called Rayanne was shot dead by a young man on a scooter outside the Les Marronniers housing estate where he lived in northern Marseille. Two other boys - one of 14, the other aged eight - were wounded in the attack.

Over the following weekend three more people were murdered in Marseille, also in turf wars over drugs. One of them was burned alive in the boot of a car. So far this year there have been 15 gangland killings in France's second city, 12 since the start of the summer.

This incident happened in Marseille, which is a port city in southern France. In the 1960s, as French colonies in North Africa gained their independence, French citizens from Algeria, Morocco, and Tunisia arrived in Marseille. Marseille is known for the French Mob closely associated with drug trafficking and smuggling since the 1940s. After the Second World War, Marseille gangs known as the "French Connection" ran vast illegal laboratories processing heroin and about 80% of heroin in the US was trafficked from Marseille by the 1960s. Nowadays, the French gangs recruit normal schoolboys as drug traffickers over the Internet.

Rayanne is a case in point. Relatives insist he was a normal schoolboy caught in the crossfire. Investigators think otherwise: that he was a chouffeur (look-out) paid by one of the gangs to patrol the frontline of its demesne.

Police, magistrates, social workers and local journalists all agree that the age of these drugs auxiliaries has been getting steadily younger.

"In 2010 the first time a 16-year-old was killed it was a thunderclap, but we thought it was a one-off. With the benefit of hindsight we can see it was the start of a trend," one social-worker told Le Monde newspaper last week.

According to the writer and expert on Marseille's poor northern neighbourhoods, Philippe Pujol: "The killings in Marseille are always over sales-points. The big bosses slug it out in Morocco or Spain. Here on the ground the drugs retail has been subcontracted out, and it's teenagers doing the work."

Youngsters can be recruited over the Internet and many come from estates in other French cities.

"It's like a summer job, but they're much more vulnerable than the local lads because they're so isolated," an investigating magistrate told Le Monde newspaper.

[Politics_Observer]

@ThirdTerm

Your signature has cyrillic alphabet. Several cultures use cyrillic. This appears to be written in Russian though. You must be an EVIL Russian right? I am honestly just joking with you. I don't think you are evil.

[Politics_Observer]

@ThirdTerm

Pronunciation of the Cyrillic alphabet is tricky and tough to learn for an English speaker. Putting each of the letters next to each other trying to sound them out and into phrases and words that way they can be read and understood as well as written.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Puffer Fish

What exactly is the murder rate in Marseille and how does it compare to other cities?

[late]

Drug Wars make things worse, not better.

Nixon got France to sign on to the drug war, but things got worse and they quit. They put money in treatment, and things got better.

Looks like they are going to have to relearn that lesson.

[boomerintown]

I think we should be carefull with trying to use an american analysis on other countries, since the problems have a lot of very different qualities, even though it looks similar on the surface.

Now this is basically how the problem is formulated in Sweden right now, I know France is different, but I think its closer than that of america:

First of all we must recognize that these problems are largely linked to mass migration. Too many uneducated (in some cases illitarate) people from very different cultures, often without function of states, have settled in various areas in Europe with little hope of finding a job.

This is not "blaming the migrants for the problem", its simply observing a fact that needs to be taken into account before we asks ourselves what to do.

So first of all, for many countries you need a temporary stop of migrants. You simply cant continue to expand the problem while you are figuring out how to deal with it.

The second step is integration/assimilation, and this is what requires a deeper understanding of the problem. Often the most problematic generation isnt the migrants themselves, but the second generation of migrants. These people lack the cultural codes their parents carried with them to Europe, often with the wish of doing right for themselves and to not commit any crimes. At the same time they live in extremly segregated areas where they fail to get in contact with for instance french culture, so french norms dont apply to them either.

Instead a toxic mix of different cultures develop, often with great influence of american "gangster culture" along with a resentment of the majority society.

However it is important to remember that most people in these areas just want to get along with their lives, to make a living for themselves and so on. But it is the worst people we hear about, pure career criminals who often start their path at a very young age.

Another aspect that is important to remember is the situation for their parents, they often live in cramped up apartments, have a lot of kids, dont understand the new countries laws and norms, making it very hard for them to raise their kids. The girls tend to do ok, but the trend we see in school as a whole, that boys struggle, is even more extreme with many quitting school before they reach high school.

I think some things we can do are:

* Big state project in building more and better homes, but also spreading these homes out instead of creating huge, segregated areas. At the same time we should destroy some of the existing buildings in these areas to make them smaller.

* A more active pressure for migrants to learn language, getting closer to the job market, etc (for instance mandatory courses of language and later on subsidised jobs in order to get social checks).

* Schools more adjusted for boys (this is especially important in these areas, but is something I advocate in society as a whole). One hour of physical activity at the start of every day, stricter rules, smaller classes, more focus on helping people with learning difficulties, etc.

* Mandatory conscription in the country as a whole (this is a great way for people to meet over cultural boundaries, over class boundaries, and so on in order to create a more united country and thus helping integration).

* More police presence, and with this I mean police who are in touch with people, who are recognized faces people learn to trust.

* More surveillance cameras, we need to make it easier to run businesses for the local population without risking to become victims of criminality.

[Pants-of-dog]

This thread seems like anti-immigrant fake news.

[boomerintown]

This thread seems like anti-immigrant fake news.

Do you care to elaborate?

Is anything in my post anti immigrant or fake news, or are you referring to something else?

[Pants-of-dog]

Do you care to elaborate?

Is anything in my post anti immigrant or fake news, or are you referring to something else?

I was referring to the OP.

Your post seemed like a solution in search of a problem. It makes sense to ask if the problem actually exists before mandating more surveilling and more policing.

[boomerintown]

I was referring to the OP.

Your post seemed like a solution in search of a problem. It makes sense to ask if the problem actually exists before mandating more surveilling and more policing.

That the problems exists are pretty well established. I described a major part of the problem in my post too, if there is anything you disagree with or if there is something you want to add or want more information about. Why not specify that instead of these extremly contraproductive and unserious Trump-like statements?

Also: are you european or american? In your profile it says Edmonton, which I guess is canadian? But I dont want to jump to conclusions.

[Pants-of-dog]

That the problems exists are pretty well established.

No, it is not.

This is similar to the claim that Paris had no-go zones where the Muslims had taken over and the cops were afraid to go. And then it turned out that this was all wrong.

If you want to support the claims in the OP with evidence, please do so.

I described a major part of the problem in my post too, if there is anything you disagree with or if there is something you want to add or want more information about. Why not specify that instead of these generalizing Trump-like statements?

Okay.

1. Define “mass migration”.

2. Provide evidence for your claim that these problems are caused by a toxic mix of cultures in second generation immigrants.

3. Provide evidence for your claim that first generation immigrants do not understand French laws and norms.

Also: are you european or american?

Neither.

[boomerintown]

No, it is not.

This is similar to the claim that Paris had no-go zones where the Muslims had taken over and the cops were afraid to go. And then it turned out that this was all wrong.

If you want to support the claims in the OP with evidence, please do so.



Okay.

1. Define “mass migration”.

2. Provide evidence for your claim that these problems are caused by a toxic mix of cultures in second generation immigrants.

3. Provide evidence for your claim that first generation immigrants do not understand French laws and norms.



Neither.

As I said, I am swedish so I dont know the french situation well enough to evidence related to France/Paris. But the problems described are virtually same in Sweden, and Ill defend the claims Ive made if you want to.

And yes the problems are well established. I just doubt you read a lot of research, news and so on related to these issues. But just because you havent read books about evolution doesnt mean its not well established.

1. With mass migration I mean the extremly high number of migrants Sweden have recieved during the last decades, which in the long run would be impossible to combine with the swedish wellfare state and the low demand of "easy jobs" on the swedish job market.

2. I dont think I wrote that this culture caused the problems. I said that such a culture developed. Culture is always difficult to have "evidence" of, so I dont really know what you mean when you say this. I think to understand what you are looking for better its good if we use an example first, but its more a description of the norms and values, how people see things and so on.

So what do I mean with this toxic culture? Glorifying of violence and crime, not trusting the state, viewing themselves as not a part of the majority society, not learning proper swedish since there are basically no people with swedish heritage around them, being afraid to talk to police, parents not knowing swedish relying on their children in contact with government issues, islamic fundamentalism (jihadism, islamism, salafism, etc), homophobia, sexism, a very low tolerance of provocation, and so on. This is most of all damaging the people who grow up there, which I think is the most important people to have concern about there.

3. I said the first generation comes wanting to follow laws, and I havent said anything about not understanding laws. I said they carried with them norms from their old culture, just like I would carry with me swedish culture and norms if I moved to France, and not understand french culture aswell as somebody who grew up in France with french parents. Do you think this is something strange?

Finally: are you canadian?

[Pants-of-dog]

As I said, I am swedish so I dont know the french situation well enough to evidence related to France/Paris. But the problems described are virtually same in Sweden, and Ill defend the claims Ive made if you want to.

And yes the problems are well established. I just doubt you read a lot of research, news and so on related to these issues. But just because you havent read books about evolution doesnt mean its not well established.

Or more likely, I have read more than most and know when people are making unsupported claims.

But if this evidence exists and I merely have not noticed it, present this evidence.

1. With mass migration I mean the extremly high number of migrants Sweden have recieved during the last decades, which in the long run would be impossible to combine with the swedish wellfare state and the low demand of "easy jobs" on the swedish job market.

Your original claim was that Paris was suffering problems because of mass migration. Now you are changing your argument to Sweden.

The argument I want to discuss is the Paris one. Since you have no evidence or even a definition that can be used for Paris, I will assume you have no evidence for the claim that France is dealing with problems caused by mass migration.

2. I dont think I wrote that this culture caused the problems. I said that such a culture developed. Culture is always difficult to have "evidence" of, so I dont really know what you mean when you say this. I think to understand what you are looking for better its good if we use an example first, but its more a description of the norms and values, how people see things and so on.

Since you have no evidence, your argument is dismissed.

So what do I mean with this toxic culture? Glorifying of violence and crime, not trusting the state, viewing themselves as not a part of the majority society, not learning proper swedish since there are basically no people with swedish heritage around them, being afraid to talk to police, parents not knowing swedish relying on their children in contact with government issues, islamic fundamentalism (jihadism, islamism, salafism, etc), homophobia, sexism, a very low tolerance of provocation, and so on. This is most of all damaging the people who grow up there, which I think is the most important people to have concern about there.

I doubt that any of this is actually a problem.

3. I said the first generation comes wanting to follow laws, and I havent said anything about not understanding laws.

Your exact words were:

"Another aspect that is important to remember is the situation for their parents, they often live in cramped up apartments, have a lot of kids, dont understand the new countries laws and norms, making it very hard for them to raise their kids.

So that is exactly what you said.

[boomerintown]

Your original claim was that Paris was suffering problems because of mass migration. Now you are changing your argument to Sweden.

This is what I originally wrote:

"Now this is basically how the problem is formulated in Sweden right now, I know France is different, but I think its closer than that of america"

The argument I want to discuss is the Paris one. Since you have no evidence or even a definition that can be used for Paris, I will assume you have no evidence for the claim that France is dealing with problems caused by mass migration.

We can call it something else if you want. Large migration? You can pick the term, it doesnt matter to me as long as we mean the same thing:
The migration from middle eastern and african countries to european countries such as France, Germany, Sweden, Austria during the last decades.

Cant we try to have a civil discussion about this instead of focusing on terminology and just saying "you are wrong". Perhaps we both have good points, and the truth isnt black or white, but nuanced? You say that you have read a lot about this issue, cant you say what you have read, what you found and how you view the situation?

I think a core issue is what I wrote here:
"So what do I mean with this toxic culture? Glorifying of violence and crime, not trusting the state, viewing themselves as not a part of the majority society, not learning proper swedish since there are basically no people with swedish heritage around them, being afraid to talk to police, parents not knowing swedish relying on their children in contact with government issues, islamic fundamentalism (jihadism, islamism, salafism, etc), homophobia, sexism, a very low tolerance of provocation, and so on. This is most of all damaging the people who grow up there, which I think is the most important people to have concern about there."

And you wrote that you didnt think this was a large problem. I assume you mean in the suburbs of Paris then, because its definently a huge problem in Sweden.

Its hard to talk about everything at once, but if we take islamic fundamentalism, it seems to be a pretty big problem in Paris? A teacher was beheaded for showing a picture of Mohammed. Is this not a problem?

[Pants-of-dog]

This is what I originally wrote:

"Now this is basically how the problem is formulated in Sweden right now, I know France is different, but I think its closer than that of america"

If you wish to talk about Sweden, then we can do so.

Please show that Sweden has drug infested ghettos or other similar problems due to mass migration.

Also, please provide a number for how much mass migration is.

We can call it something else if you want. Large migration? You can pick the term, it doesnt matter to me as long as we mean the same thing:
The migration from middle eastern and african countries to european countries such as France, Germany, Sweden, Austria during the last decades.

You seem to be saying that it is only mass migration when it is not white people. Is that what you are saying?

Cant we try to have a civil discussion about this instead of focusing on terminology and just saying "you are wrong". Perhaps we both have good points, and the truth isnt black or white, but nuanced? You say that you have read a lot about this issue, cant you say what you have read, what you found and how you view the situation?

What I have read is that Paris has no “no-go zones” and it is all racist fearmongering.

I think a core issue is what I wrote here:
"So what do I mean with this toxic culture? Glorifying of violence and crime, not trusting the state, viewing themselves as not a part of the majority society, not learning proper swedish since there are basically no people with swedish heritage around them, being afraid to talk to police, parents not knowing swedish relying on their children in contact with government issues, islamic fundamentalism (jihadism, islamism, salafism, etc), homophobia, sexism, a very low tolerance of provocation, and so on. This is most of all damaging the people who grow up there, which I think is the most important people to have concern about there."

And you wrote that you didnt think this was a large problem. I assume you mean in the suburbs of Paris then, because its definently a huge problem in Sweden.

No, I doubt this is a real problem in Sweden either.

Its hard to talk about everything at once, but if we take islamic fundamentalism, it seems to be a pretty big problem in Paris? A teacher was beheaded for showing a picture of Mohammed. Is this not a problem?

Is it? When one teacher dies from religious fundamentalism, is that a problem?

[boomerintown]

You are kind of all over the place in this post, so I think we need to narrow it down.

Since you ask about drug-infested ghettos and so on in Sweden, it will be easiest for me to adress. First of all, its not the terminology Id use, but I understand what the topic-maker is referring to.

The term we generally use in Sweden for what I think he refers to is "particularly vulnerable areas".

They are areas:

* where the police have difficulty or almost impossible to complete their missions
* where there are parallel societal structures
* where residents are reluctant to participate in the legal process
* where abuse in court is common, such as systematic threats against witnesses and plaintiffs
* with violent religious extremism where people travel to take part in fighting in conflict areas and fundamentalists restrict people's freedoms such as religious freedom
* with ethnic segregation
* with a high concentration of criminals

2019 there were 22 areas that filled these criterias according to the police. It is actually one less than in 2017, but in 2015 there were only 15.

I think this roughly covers what I talked about as a problem in Sweden, and because ambulance and firetruck often need police escorts they have sometimes be referred to as no-go zones. But its pretty meaningless to get into some semantic debate, I think we should just refer to them with their "official" name "particularly vulnerable areas", and we can us this as a starting point for what I am calling a problem.

So if we should have a discussion, and you said that the problem wasnt established, this is perhaps a way to show you that a problem exists?