[boomerintown]

Actually, it is you who are claiming (without evidence) the somewhat racist argument that immigrants are uneducated.

No, Canada just does a better job of helping migrants become economically involved in their communities and in Canadian society in general.

What do you base it on that Canada does a better job helping migrants? According to Mipex you dont. Your ranking is high, but not as high as Swedens.
(https://www.mipex.eu/key-findings)

The problem here seems to be that you still view all immigrants as a homogeneous group, which is an extremly prejudiced group. You cant compare engineers from India to refugees from Somalia who havent even went to high school. This is simply a problem that doesnt exist in Canada.


Here is some data I could find (25-64 years, migrated in 2014-2017):
(https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/arti ... nvandrade/)


Dark blue = havent gone to high school
Blue = only high school
Green = post high school, less than three years
Dark green = post high school, more than three years

The sooner you accept that migrants are human beings, and not abstract concept, with very different prerequisites depending on what migrant it is we are talking about, the sooner you will understand the problem.

I think your pretty obvious prejudice against immigrants as a group, and what seems to be an internalized post-colonial stereotype about "the other", about people in Africa and Middle East without individual characteristics or agency, rather exotic people for you to use as a way of covering up this subconcious racism.

[Pants-of-dog]

What do you base it on that Canada does a better job helping migrants? According to Mipex you dont. Your ranking is high, but not as high as Swedens.
(https://www.mipex.eu/key-findings)

So let me get this straight.

Sweden is doing a better job with migrants, but Canada has less crime with migrants? How does that work?

You are being logically inconsistent.

One possible explanation is that Sweden actually has no problem with migration.

The problem here seems to be that you still view all immigrants as a homogeneous group, which is an extremly prejudiced group. You cant compare engineers from India to refugees from Somalia who havent even went to high school. This is simply a problem that doesnt exist in Canada.

So we agree that making claims like “migrants are uneducated” (which is your claim) is wrong.

Here is some data I could find (25-64 years, migrated in 2014-2017):
(https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/arti ... nvandrade/)


Dark blue = havent gone to high school
Blue = only high school
Green = post high school, less than three years
Dark green = post high school, more than three years

The sooner you accept that migrants are human beings, and not abstract concept, with very different prerequisites depending on what migrant it is we are talking about, the sooner you will understand the problem.

Does this account for age?

If, for example, Somalians have a lot of kids that are below high school age, then it would be wrong to say they are uneducated, Because they are too young to go t9 high school.

Also, you never showed any evidence showing a sharp increase in crime after this mass migration that supposedly happened.

[boomerintown]

So let me get this straight.

Sweden is doing a better job with migrants, but Canada has less crime with migrants? How does that work?

You are being logically inconsistent.

One possible explanation is that Sweden actually has no problem with migration.

Does this account for age?

If, for example, Somalians have a lot of kids that are below high school age, then it would be wrong to say they are uneducated, Because they are too young to go t9 high school.

Also, you never showed any evidence showing a sharp increase in crime after this mass migration that supposedly happened.

As I wrote in the post, its for people aged 25-64.

And now I really see the problem, you actually struggle with basic logic. This explains why you are having such a hard time understanding.

Sweden is better at integrating migrants than Canada, but have been handed a far harder task to deal with.

Canada is good at integrating migrants. Its not as good as Sweden, but havent had any really problematic waves to handle either.

Canada pretty much picks and choose which migrants will be the easiest to deal with, so ofcourse there wont be any problem. And I am basically just saying that Sweden need to do this too for a while, before we can go back to taking more responsibility.

It would be nice ofcourse if Canada could take SOME responsibility, especially if you have no problems atm.

[Pants-of-dog]

As I wrote in the post, its for people aged 25-64.

There is no way of verifying that, according to the information you presented.

Sweden is better at integrating migrants than Canada, but have been handed a far harder task to deal with.

I doubt this very much.

Canada is good at integrating migrants. Its not as good as Sweden, but havent had any really problematic waves to handle either.

Canada pretty much picks and choose which migrants will be the easiest to deal with, so ofcourse there wont be any problem. And I am basically just saying that Sweden need to do this too for a while, before we can go back to taking more responsibility.

It would be nice ofcourse if Canada could take SOME responsibility, especially if you have no problems atm.

Please show that Sweden accepted more refugees from Afghanistan, Somalia, Syria, and Iraq per capita than Canada did.

Also, you never showed any evidence showing a sharp increase in crime after this mass migration that supposedly happened. Do so now.

[boomerintown]

You have claimed that Canada is better at integrating migrants than Sweden, despite available, independent meassures showing otherwise.

Please show evidence for your claim.

[Pants-of-dog]

You have claimed that Canada is better at integrating migrants than Sweden, despite available, independent meassures showing otherwise.

Please show evidence for your claim.

No.

If Sweden is actually doing better at this than Canada, it does not affect any of my arguments.

It is an irrelevant tangent.

My relevant claim was that migration cannot be causing crime because many cities with high migration also have lower crime than more homogeneous cities. You do not disagree with this claim.

I am more than happy to agree that Canada and Sweden are very different and cannot be compared, so we should focus on Sweden,

Please provide evidence showing a sharp increase in crime after this mass migration to Sweden that supposedly happened.

[boomerintown]

No.

If Sweden is actually doing better at this than Canada, it does not affect any of my arguments.

It is an irrelevant tangent.

My relevant claim was that migration cannot be causing crime because many cities with high migration also have lower crime than more homogeneous cities. You do not disagree with this claim.

I am more than happy to agree that Canada and Sweden are very different and cannot be compared, so we should focus on Sweden,

Please provide evidence showing a sharp increase in crime after this mass migration to Sweden that supposedly happened.

Good that we can agree on this at least.

Ive explained what I think is the problem and what I think it caused previously in this topic, and showed data to support it. I dont even know what you mean with migration causing spikes in crime. My claim is that the ethnically and socio-economically segregated areas in Sweden is largely linked to migration and that we need to limit migration right now.

[Pants-of-dog]

Good that we can agree on this at least.

Ive explained what I think is the problem and what I think it caused previously in this topic, and showed data to support it. I dont even know what you mean with migration causing spikes in crime. My claim is that the ethnically and socio-economically segregated areas in Sweden is largely linked to migration and that we need to limit migration right now.

You previously claimed that migration causes crime.

You seem to have stopped making this argument.

Now you seem to be claiming that reducing migration will reduce the inequalities that lead to crime.

Is this what you are arguing?

[boomerintown]

You previously claimed that migration causes crime.

You seem to have stopped making this argument.

Now you seem to be claiming that reducing migration will reduce the inequalities that lead to crime.

Is this what you are arguing?

I have had this position from the start? I believe there is an increased risk to end up in criminality for children who grow up grow up in these kinds of areas, yes.

Do you not think so?

There are two things I am arguing for, and I am not sure which one it is that you question?

1. A lot of the problems with these areas are related to migration.
2. Children who grow up in these areas are more likely to end up in criminality.

[Pants-of-dog]

I have had this position from the start? I believe there is an increased risk to end up in criminality for children who grow up grow up in these kinds of areas, yes.

Do you not think so?

There are two things I am arguing for, and I am not sure which one it is that you question?

1. A lot of the problems with these areas are related to migration.
2. Children who grow up in these areas are more likely to end up in criminality.

What exactly is the relationship between migration and crime?

[ThirdTerm]

Sweden is a special case, where over 100,000 refugees or just over 1% of the population settle in the country annually. Since 2010, Sweden added over 1 million refugees to its population that is only 10 million, mostly from Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan. In comparison, the population of Moscow is 12 million. At this pace, Sweden will become a majority Arab country in the near future. Unlike normal immigrants with proper qualifications, refugees are less likely to get employed in Sweden.

Immigration to Sweden from 2010 to 2020

2020 82,518
2019 115,805
2018 132,602
2017 144,489
2016 163,005
2015 134,240
2014 126,966
2013 115,845
2012 103,059
2011 96,467
2010 98,801

[boomerintown]

What exactly is the relationship between migration and crime?

I just explained exacly that in the post you quoted...

[boomerintown]

Sweden is a special case, where over 100,000 refugees or just over 1% of the population settle in the country annually. Since 2010, Sweden added over 1 million refugees to its population that is only 10 million, mostly from Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan. In comparison, the population of Moscow is 12 million. At this pace, Sweden will become a majority Arab country in the near future. Unlike normal immigrants with proper qualifications, refugees are less likely to get employed in Sweden.

Immigration to Sweden from 2010 to 2020

2020 82,518
2019 115,805
2018 132,602
2017 144,489
2016 163,005
2015 134,240
2014 126,966
2013 115,845
2012 103,059
2011 96,467
2010 98,801

Sweden might be more extreme, but a lot of other european countries have similar (but not identical) problems.

Dont you think a lot of the problems in Paris are related to migration aswell?

[Unthinking Majority]

Your original claim was that Paris was suffering problems because of mass migration. Now you are changing your argument to Sweden.

The argument I want to discuss is the Paris one. Since you have no evidence or even a definition that can be used for Paris, I will assume you have no evidence for the claim that France is dealing with problems caused by mass migration.

It's not so much "mass immigration", there's nothing wrong with immigration if you bring in quality applicants, it is the type of people being brought into the country, specifically those who are poor, unskilled/uneducated, and unable to escape poverty. Cultural and/or family factors can often make things worse. So they and their kids grow up poor, sometimes in broken homes, don't do well in school, may not have a good male model, and young men turn to drug crime as the easiest way to make a lot of money, and you need a gun to deal drugs because the cops aren't going to protect you. I don't often feel safe selling chairs on Kijiji I can't imagine what drug deals are like.

https://www.france24.com/en/france/2021 ... -in-france

Gang warfare among young people is on the rise, interior ministry statistics show: France recorded some 357 incidents in 2020 compared to 288 the previous year. The interior ministry has identified 74 gangs throughout the country – including 46 in the Paris region.

These figures likely represent an underestimation of the scale of the problem, Thomas Sauvadet, a sociologist and author of a study on youth gang warfare, Le Capital Guerrier (“Our Warlike Capital”), told FRANCE 24: “The police only record the most serious incidents, while many victims shy away from filing complaints out of fear of reprisals.”

Sauvadet added that “about 10 percent of young men under 30 living in underprivileged areas in the Paris region belong to a gang”, according to statistics he collated. “These gangs are largely composed of young people who have known each other from an early age, sometimes from seven to 10 years old. Then they tend to have difficulties at school in adolescence, sometimes with family issues that they seek to flee – and often professional difficulties follow that. So these young people band together to form gangs and find themselves in a state of conflict with those around them, including social workers.”

[Unthinking Majority]

What exactly is the relationship between migration and crime?

Poverty.

I suspect a disproportionate # of gang crimes are committed by refugees or children of refugees. Often young and male.

No difference between white trash dealing drugs and anyone of any other ethnicity.

Nothing wrong with refugees either, but poverty breeds crime. If someone is a refugee and you can work and stay out of poverty, great. If you can't this is a risk factor.

Poor indigenous people, poor African Americans, poor white trash, poor migrants. Crime is abundant in all of these groups for the same reasons. They lack education, they have a hard time making decent money, so some turn to crime.

I suspect those raised in poverty that avoid crime have solid family connections, are raised with good values, maybe some luck out with a good temperament, and/or parents instill education/studying as a key value so are able to escape poverty. I've had friends whose parents are poor refugees do excellent in school and themselves escape poverty and enter the top 10% income bracket. That's within 1 generation. Education and family are the key to income success. Some people have their sh*t together, some people don't.

[Unthinking Majority]

You previously claimed that migration causes crime.

Migration does not cause crime. That's a terrible argument by whomever said it.

[Unthinking Majority]

No, Canada just does a better job of helping migrants become economically involved in their communities and in Canadian society in general.

But I agree that it is wrong to simply say that migration causes crime.

Canada has its own problems with rising gang violence, gun crime etc. It is in no way immune to crime within poor migrant communities.

Canada has decent supports for migrants, but if you have a 35 year old with a grade 6 education and can't speak english or french there's often only so much that can be done, and the odds aren't stacked in their favor economically no matter what compared to a migrant that has a handle on the official language of the province they live in and they have employable skills/education.

[Rugoz]

Canada basically hand-picks its immigrants. Then it goes around and tells everyone how awesome multikulti is. Fuck Canada.

[Unthinking Majority]

Canada basically hand-picks its immigrants. Then it goes around and tells everyone how awesome multikulti is. Fuck Canada.

They do, but they also accept refugees. Of course, they don't usually have refugees streaming across their border in massive numbers. Unless they're fake refugees from the US who are being sent home to Haiti by the US and don't want to go back home because home sucks.

[Pants-of-dog]

I just explained exacly that in the post you quoted...

If the only relationship between migration and crime is that migrants are relegated to neighbourhoods with more crime, then your suggestion to reduce migration makes no sense.

—————————

Canada basically hand-picks its immigrants. Then it goes around and tells everyone how awesome multikulti is. Fuck Canada.

Canada has found ways to turn immigration into an economic engine. For people who support capitalism and the globalist effects of capitalism, why is this a bad thing?

————————-

@Unthinking Majority

Yes, youth, poverty, and lack of opportunities seem to be the causes of crime in Sweden and it would make sense that these also lead to higher crime in France and Canada and other countries.