[Politics_Observer]

@Beren

You mean down to your level. You'll have to do better than that.

[Beren]

You mean down to your level. You'll have to do better than that.

Maybe some more time on PoFo will help you, although you've already made almost 5,000 posts here, so I'm not sure. However, you've been here for less than 2.5 years, so there still may be some hope for you, but I'll be proven hopeful too much I'm afraid.

[Igor Antunov]

I think for autonomy to make sense in a global context the EU needs to have some kind of concrete cohesion. It really doesn't. Fiat currency ain't enough. I think it's very much a modern rendition of the holy roman empire. Foreign policy is always going to be completely scattered and uncoordinated and subject to the whims of powers outside the club. Internally it may have some kind of majority partial consensus when it comes to economics, but always bickering when it comes to social policy.

[B0ycey]

@Politics_Observer

I think the whole notion of having an army and autonomy is indeed so America can stay in their side of the pond as you say. The problem is that although America and Europe have similar ideological philosophies and will remain allies to some extent forever, they simply have different geopolitical interests. Yes, this has to do with refugees given the war causes were yours and we hold the bag as you say when you gave up on those causes, but it goes deeper than that. Europe would prefer to have Russia and China as partners and America see them as a threat. That in itself will cause tensions in the future. The only way to solve that problem is to not rely on the US. Because if they do, they then have to do what they did for the past twenty years and support causes that aren't in their own best interests.

The notion the world is perfect is simply not true. Some of the worse regimes in terms of human rights and abuses, are strong US allies and yet we don't sanction them. There is going to be a power play in the future. US and China will ultimately be playing out their national interests around the world and to some extent so will Russia. And new allies will be formed. Europe has a choice. And it is a real one. They can be part of the group who set out how the future will act and look and be a real voice in the future or they can be a proxy to someone else's interests. That is the choice. And people of Europe should see this coming because I do. This is not to say this is an Anti American stance. I don't want it to sound like I am attacking America when I write this as I know you are sensitive to these things. And what America does and act is always in their own interests so I don't blame them anyway. But it isn't always in Europes interests and that is why they should act and become autonomous. And of course should they become a new superpower they would be a superpower who will still align with America in many of their policies anyway. So in that sense, European autonomy many well be beneficial for America as well as not only will you save some money in not occupying Europe, you will have an ally who will be an equal partner and a better voice of reason to stop you repeating past mistakes like Afghanistan.

[B0ycey]

There is a major and fundamental problem; and it goes right to the basic philosophy of the EU. Lets put it this way: countries like the US and Russia are from Mars, while the EU is from Venus. It is not that the EU cannot get all martial and fierce like the US or Russia; afterall, Europe, in its history, has had more than it share of hard, macho, aggressive nations. The bottomline dna of today's EU is not martial. Even if she builds an army it would be a waste of money. Armies are there to kill, break things, cause stampedes, refugees etc. If the EU wants an army, that is where she is heading. If she doesnt want to head in that direction, then she is better off staying the US' sissy.

For crying out loud, the EU has to actually bribe Turkey as part of her approach to dealing with refugees. It shouldnt be up to Turkey. They EU should first decide basic things like who she would allow in before talking of armies.

Funny you mention Turkey. One of the arguments for an EU army a few years back was had they had one, they would have organised and protected the border better so to stem the flow of refugees and not needed to bribe Turkey as you say to do that for them.

Also, yes I agree an army is there is kill, but its primary objective is to defend. And yes the EU is more Liberal in their policies than Russia and China and perhaps that would make them less likely to deploy their troops around the world. I don't see that as a bad thing actually. But having an army simply detracts external threats from your shores and makes your voice more prominent. It also stops you being a sissy as you say as you don't need to rely on someone else for your defence and as such you become more autonomous with your geopolitics.

[Rugoz]

Well an EU army would need consensus. I suspect someone would have vetoed that war. But even so, Libya was another failure and was perhaps the first. No wonder France and Britain was so eager. The lesson hadn't be taught yet.

Sure, unanimity would probably make the use of an EU army a rather rare occurrence.

The EU is a proxy. Or more specifically EU nations are a proxy. So is the UK. And that was evident given the US pulled out of Afghanistan without consulting their NATO partners. And whilst EU members rely on US support, they will remain a proxy. But for some reason there is an opposition to this in some EU states and as such they may well remain a proxy. But the argument of autonomy is a factual one and if people want the EU to achieve their potential that should actually be supporting this cause. Because I have always said Macron was a president ahead of his time. People may not see it today, but if Europe wants to survive on its own, it needs to unite. And it certainly needs to unite if it wants to be taken seriously like China and America in the future.

Why would the US have to consult its NATO partners when it's doing 90% of the work? That would make the US a proxy of its partners, not vice versa. France withdrew its combat troops from Afghanistan in 2012. Canada and the Netherlands as well. Did they "consult" the US? NATO countries pretty much do whatever the fuck they want when it comes to participation in these wars. The Iraq war was openly opposed by both France and Germany. Needless to say France withdrew entirely from NATO as some point. Proxies don't act that way, at least not in my understanding of the word.

Funny you mention Turkey. One of the arguments for an EU army a few years back was had they had one, they would have organised and protected the border better so to stem the flow of refugees and not needed to bribe Turkey as you say to do that for them.

The lack of an army is a non-issue, because it's a job for Frontex and Greek border control. The reason the EU bribes Turkey for keeping refugees away is because it doesn't want to do the dirty work itself. Pushbacks violate the European convention of human rights. Though Greece seems to do it regardless recently.

[B0ycey]

@Rugoz

I guess the reason the US should have consulted is the reason they are discussions about autonomy in the EU now FYI. It doesn't matter so much if your troops and personnel are in a foreign country as long as you don't rely on another nation for security. And as such it isn't just the US that have had to leave some of their citizens in Afghanistan but also true throughout NATO. But really that is a moot point. The EU is the second largest economy in the world and if it wants to be a big player in the future they also need autonomy anyway. Afghanistan is merely the excuse. Long term objectives should be why they proceed with this. Although really the only reason this still has hurdles is mainly internal confusion. For some reason there are EU nations that think this is in direct conflict with NATO and actually it should be seen as branch of unity with NATO.

[Politics_Observer]

@Beren

You're scraping the bottom of the barrel and reaching desperately if all you can talk about is how long I have been here and how many posts I've made. Bless your heart.

@B0ycey

I'm OK with a European force and pulling our own troops out. I am also OK with the US pulling out of NATO and letting Europe do it's own thing. We'll just stay over here on our side of the pond.

It seems we are not wanted or welcomed. So, we'll just leave and pull out of NATO. If we are not wanted or welcomed we shouldn't continue such partnership.

[B0ycey]

@Politics_Observer

NATO was a defence pact. It makes sense to keep it given the US and Europe will always remain allies. Where NATO went wrong in Afghanistan was it became a coalition of aggression with a goal and when the operation was ended, NATO members weren't consulted which they should have I suppose given it was basically a NATO mission with Australia. NATO has never been good at things like that anyway. It worked in Yugoslavia, but not since 9/11. So perhaps it should remain just a defence pact. And as I said an EU army would be an extension of NATO rather than its competitor anyway. Should something like Afghanistan occur again and Europe wanted to remain longer to get their people out the would be able to do that next time.

[Politics_Observer]

@B0ycey

I don't know about that. Hungary is part of NATO. Been says US is not welcome so I think rather than being part of NATO the US just needs to withdraw from NATO and bring the troops home.

We're not widely welcomed by everybody and I don't want to be part of a team where we are not really wanted. So you know I say pull out of NATO, bring the troops home and stay out of Europe and not worry about it. That way everybody is happy and nobody has anything to bitch and complain about. We're not out to make anybody unhappy.

[B0ycey]

@B0ycey

I don't know about that. Hungary is part of NATO. Been says US is not welcome so I think rather than being part of NATO the US just needs to withdraw from NATO and bring the troops home.

We're not widely welcomed by everybody and I don't want to be part of a team where we are not really wanted. So you know I say pull out of NATO, bring the troops home and stay out of Europe and not worry about it. That way everybody is happy and nobody has anything to bitch and complain about. We're not out to make anybody unhappy.

I wouldn't listen to anyone on PoFo to gage what their nations want PO. Although I think you are misunderstanding Beren anyway which is why he mentioned a Palantir. What he writes is not what he wishes but what he thinks is happening and can't be stopped. Nonetheless Hungary is a funny country in that regard anyway. Their homosexual rules are making their allies condemn them which is basically pushing them towards China and Russia and they aren't in much danger of an invasion from Russia anyway, not just due to these alliances but that Russia, like America with Afghanistan, would find it almost impossible to occupy hostile lands which Eastern Europe would be. They are more than happy for Ukraine to retain their civil war rather than invade into Kiev so perhaps you overestimate Russia geopolitical ambitions anyway. The only thing Russia seems interested in is the US failing rather than copying their model. Which then goes to back to NATO. Just mere membership protects Europe as it happens. Building up bases or deployment in Eastern Europe doesn't do anything but make Russia follow suit which ironically is what makes Europe in danger of Russia. But even so an EU army would prevent the need for you guys being there and as such you will be happy given what you have written and I suspect that would improve relations between Russia and the EU and stop the threat that way given I suspect tensions are mainly due to Cold War rhetoric than anything else.

[Beren]

You're scraping the bottom of the barrel and reaching desperately if all you can talk about is how long I have been here and how many posts I've made.

I was just assessing you, but don't worry, I have no more personal interest in you.

[Politics_Observer]

@Beren

Well thank God for that!

@B0ycey

If that is the case why not just let Hungary withdraw from NATO. That way they are happy and everybody is happy. Nobody has anything to bitch and complain about. And we wont't be obligated to come to Hungary's defense if they get invaded again by the Russians.

[B0ycey]

If that is the case why not just let Hungary withdraw from NATO. That way they are happy and everybody is happy. Nobody has anything to bitch and complain about. And we wont't be obligated to come to Hungary's defense if they get invaded again by the Russians.

But does Hungary want to leave NATO? Besides, NATO should reform. It would keep every user on here happy if it did. It doesn't need to be an act of coalition, but an act for defence. And as you say, America in between two oceans are safe whatever happens. Perhaps it isn't worth the words discussing this in that sense. User opinion on NATO is irrelevant and I suspect all members have no intention in leaving

[Beren]

But does Hungary want to leave NATO?

No, but Hungary's the biggest foreign customer of the German arms industry, so with or without NATO we'll resist the Russians when they come anyway!

[Politics_Observer]

@Beren

You'll resist the Russians and probably get easily crushed like you did the last time the last time they invaded your country. It wouldn't take long for the Russians to do it. But it's what you want, it's your choice and your country. The US shouldn't lift a finger to help either and should watch it from afar and stay out of it. We don't want to help Hungary if they don't want our help. They are on their own. No reason why we should help if they don't want us around.

[Beren]

No reason why we should help if they don't want us around.

The only thing I wouldn't want around right now is you.

[Politics_Observer]

@Beren

You might want to see if a lot of Americans want to be around you after some of your comments about our country. A lot of Americans might not want to be around you. You might find a lot of Americans are like me in regards to being proud of our country. You probably wouldn't get along with them very well honestly speaking if you can't get along with me. I am one of the easier Americans to get along with.

[Politics_Observer]

@Beren

If you can't get along with me, then you probably won't get along well with most Americans. And most Americans would agree with my position. So you might as well just stop trying to hang with Americans if you can't get along with me given I am one of the easier ones to get along with.

[Beren]

What the hell do you still want from me, @Politics_Observer? You even had the last word, for god's sake. Are you a psycho or do you just have an irresistible urge for being an arsehole on an online forum?

Also, you're not the first American I've engaged with, but you can definitely be the worst.