Europe cultural split between east and west - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in Europe's nation states, the E.U. & Russia.

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#15193646
Sandzak wrote:The gay issue shows the dividing lines between East and West. Me as Muslim, and more as East-European I am homophobe.


Could the EU brake a part because of hedonists.

Absorbing the ex-Warsaw Pact nations straight out of 40 years of Stalinism was always going to be problematic for the EU. It fundamentally shifted the cultural and political balance of the EU. Which of course is why the British were pushing for it back in the day. Lol. ;)
#15193647
Potemkin wrote:Which of course is why the British were pushing for it back in the day.

The Germans pushed for it as well, and the Americans too, so it was mostly the French who didn't, if I remember correctly, so it wasn't exactly an evil anti-EU British plot. :lol:
#15193650
This is basically me thinking as I write, so take it for what it is. :)

As many things in politics I think we should see it in a sort of dialectical way. With a form of very liberal and globalist ideology dominating in west, the ideology in east have developed as an anti thesis to this.

I think there are two good explanations for this. One is that the existing structures of power largely remained from the communist era. The same people, but promoting a different ideology. And just like they had learned to follow Moscow, they now looked at Washington and Brussels. Therefore, a populist uprising to get rid of these people is perhaps not that surprising.

Secondly, the citizens in east are less naive and idealistic in issues such as migration which became a huge clash long before people started talking about gay rights and so on. This is also an actual material issue, that direcly effects normal peoples every day life, which I think makes it more important than the stance on "lgbtq-rights", which is more symbolical. Rather a sort of signalling about what camp you belong to, with the two extremes in either end are just ridicilus.

But the way dialectics work is usually the thesis and anti thesis ending up in a synthesis which is where I think Europe will be heading soon. We can see the change all over west, with globalism essentially being completly abandoned for a more realistic view on the nation state and the need for a united Europe to stand up against global capital and other super powers, rather than just being geography in a multicultural world with open borders.

Also, the wests naive stance on migration is more or less gone. The swedish Social Democrat is just about to change leader, and the first thing she said in her speech was that the most important issue for Sweden to deal with is the violent and gang-related crime, mostly by second generation migrants with parents who have not become a part of Sweden, and that she will do everything it takes to fight this. Which shouldnt be controversial, but is a huge discursive change since the party until now only talked about it as a result of socio-economic problems.

I mention this, because I think Sweden is probably the last (perhaps except Germany) country with the main parties both left and right recognizing that migration have caused huge problems for Europe.

This, in combination with a more nationalist (and eurocentric) approach rather than a globalist are certainly signs that west is getting closer to the east in a lot of important issues. And I think this is positive in combating the other extreme positions, where ethnicity starts to get into the picture, and it is possible to shape a sort of pan-european discourse about the importance of national identity, but that ethnicity doesnt need to be a part of it.

And I see this as the springing point, people all over Europe are happy and proud to be europeans, and want to cooperate with eachother. But they identify even stronger as hungarian, dutch, finnish and so on, and want as much national soveirgnity as possible.
#15193696
Rugoz wrote:Eh...what? Stalin died in 1953. :eh:


30 years???

Communism had a better understanding of equality, they did not try to form a unisex gender.

For example The Red Army had feminine uniforms for women sometimes with high-heels...


Post Scriptum

Due to legal reasons I can not fully write my opinion in PoFo about this issue.
Last edited by Sandzak on 08 Oct 2021 08:22, edited 1 time in total.
#15193737
Rugoz wrote:Eh...what? Stalin died in 1953. :eh:

Stalinism did not die with Stalin, just as Maoism did not die with Mao and Thatcherism did not die with Thatcher.
#15193749
Potemkin wrote:Stalinism did not die with Stalin, just as Maoism did not die with Mao and Thatcherism did not die with Thatcher.


I'd say most of it died.

Sandzak wrote:Due to legal reasons I can not fully write my opinion in PoFo about this issue.


And what would those be? :lol:
#15193847
Rugoz wrote:


And what would those be? :lol:


Can I say I support the Russian law in this issue???

You can be at home gay, but if you wave gay flags (it was origanaly a peaceflag against the Iraq war), you get a nice stay in a Siberian hotel for about 6 Months...



P.S. Why need children a pro-gay sexual education.... sometimes sexual education starts in Kindergarden :knife:
#15193953
Sandzak wrote:Can I say I support the Russian law in this issue???

You can be at home gay, but if you wave gay flags (it was origanaly a peaceflag against the Iraq war), you get a nice stay in a Siberian hotel for about 6 Months...


Moskau einfach we used to say.
#15193979
Sandzak wrote:The gay issue shows the dividing lines between East and West. Me as Muslim, and more as East-European I am homophobe.


Could the EU brake a part because of hedonists.

What is the general attitude toward gay people in Bosnia? We are divided in half in Turkey. But there is no anger toward homsexual people. There is no sign of violenece against them.
#15194057
Sexual decadence is the sign of a falling civilisation... Homosexuality was in all socialist countries illegal except DDR (East-Germany).

I think it is a cultural issue, and the Western part has to accept a different mentality of the East...

@Istanbuller The police beats shit out of counter-demonstrants at pride day... so people have to accept the EU-Unisex-Agenda.
#15194066
On of my closest friends i gay but he does not show it... I hate scum who goes in dance halls and harass hetero men... unlike women we can not beat the culprit or else you get jailed for a hate crime.
Last edited by Sandzak on 12 Oct 2021 07:50, edited 1 time in total.
#15194067
Sandzak wrote:Sexual decadence is the sign of a falling civilisation... Homosexuality was in all socialist countries illegal except DDR (East-Germany).


If that's true, what would you call putting homosexuals to death and making women the slaves of their spouses and fathers?
#15194079
The claim of decadence causing the downfall of anything has always been left vague in its causality.
Moral outrage/offense isn’t an explanation unfortunately.
#15194112
Wellsy wrote:The claim of decadence causing the downfall of anything has always been left vague in its causality.
Moral outrage/offense isn’t an explanation unfortunately.


One could argue that historically "decadence" and excessive rent-seeking were connected.

Capitalism though enabled decadence without extracting rents. In fact decadence drives capital accumulation and technological development.
#15194271
Wellsy wrote:The claim of decadence causing the downfall of anything has always been left vague in its causality.
Moral outrage/offense isn’t an explanation unfortunately.

Besides which, the ancient Romans could be described as 'decadent' from the end of the Third Punic War onwards. Yet the greatest years of their wealth, power and cultural influence were still ahead of them.... No, what moralists call 'decadence' is not correlated with the strength or otherwise of a civilisation.
#15194281
Potemkin wrote:Besides which, the ancient Romans could be described as 'decadent' from the end of the Third Punic War onwards. Yet the greatest years of their wealth, power and cultural influence were still ahead of them.... No, what moralists call 'decadence' is not correlated with the strength or otherwise of a civilisation.


I don't think "wealth, power and cultural influence" would necessarily be seen as decadence by conservatives.

Instead, someone who is seeking pleasure at the expense of his duties to the family and the community could be seen as decadent. Someone who refuses to serve in the military for example.
#15194283
Potemkin wrote:Besides which, the ancient Romans could be described as 'decadent' from the end of the Third Punic War onwards. Yet the greatest years of their wealth, power and cultural influence were still ahead of them.... No, what moralists call 'decadence' is not correlated with the strength or otherwise of a civilisation.


@Potemkin ;

I would not hesitate to say that decadence and degeneracy of an Oligarchic elite is precisely that which impels them to seek ''wealth, power, and cultural influence''. Morality and human decency which looks to the common good (instead of personal exaltation and pleasures) is a real burden on those fancying Imperial dreams.

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