[B0ycey]

I am Maltese; my wife, who I met and married in England, is Maltese; my children are Maltese; my grandchildren are Maltese; and my dog is Maltese, born and bred, I have the license to prove it.

I live in Malta.

Is that your evidence?





I genuinely don't care where you're from. I do however profile you. Even your slang is Yorkshire.

[ingliz]

I do however profile you

Even your slang is Yorkshire

It's no secret I spent many years living and working in Yorkshire.

[B0ycey]

It's no secret I spent many years living and working in Yorkshire.

Well you have never mentioned that to me. Which says your words are giving you away.

As I said Ingliz, I genuinely don't care. And if you don't keep mentioning it, I am more than happy for your avatar to be wherever you like it to live. I only reference that you are Residing in the UK as there are things you said that can only mean you are living here. That and given you are very committed to UK politics beyond what a continental European would be. Besides, your style of posting is trolling and trolls are notoriously not to be trusted on forums. They have an ulterior motive. Also you think I trust the words people write on here? You have to be kidding. You aren't even the only user on here who I think plays an alter ego. But you allow me to write my opinions on here by responding to me on threads that would otherwise die in a few days due to few being interested in BoJos party antics. So in that, you have some importance in keeping UK politics relevant to PoFo.

[ingliz]

you have never mentioned that to me

Why would I?

you are very committed to UK politics beyond what a continental European would be

I'm not much interested in the UK per se: It's a shithole. Of course, it was always a shithole but, live in shit, and you soon get used to the smell.

I do have an abiding hatred of Tories.

The wife says they did us a favour, but it's not easy leaving a home you have made to start again from scratch.

[JohnRawls]

Why would I?


I haven't much interest in the UK per se: It's a shithole. Of course, it was always a shithole but, live in shit, and you soon get used to the smell.

I do have an abiding hatred of Tories.

The wife says they did us a favour, but it's not easy leaving a home you have made to start again from scratch.

Personal hatred is a good motivator. Now I kind of understand you a bit more. Always wandered why a person living in Malta cares so much about the politics in UK even though he lived there but doesn't anymore. Fair game I guess. You have an axe to grind on the topic so obviously you are a bit more educated on the subject than most.

By the way, viewing something favourable doesn't necessarily mean that people will vote for it. People are not fully rational beings and hence can be scared off on specific question, this is how Tories have operated to win. Even more severe case are Republicans in America on the topic.

The problem with Corbyn was always that it was so easy to send his policies in to the fear territory because they are so unknown and have been "unnatural" for lack of a better word for some time now. He also chooses to allign himself to ideas, people or ideaologies that are detrimental to his internal policies within the UK. Hamas and Palestein is one of those subjects for example but not the only one. Basically if he just walked with his policies and kept silent or neutral on controversial groups and ideas then he might have a chance but that is simply who he is not. This might sound like a little problem because who the fuck really cares about Hamas when it is an internal policy question but in reality that just made him more and more open to the "fear" criticism. Which actually works also on members on labour themselves.

You might hate Starmer also because you think that he is a "Labour Tory" but in reality, he might be the best chance of passing Corbyns policies. How many of them will be left is the real question though because now the internal fighting in labour is still ongoing. Once again, this infighting started during Corbyn so it is his legacy which transitioned in to Starmers head ache.

[Potemkin]

Personal hatred is a good motivator. Now I kind of understand you a bit more. Always wandered why a person living in Malta cares so much about the politics in UK even though he lived there but doesn't anymore. Fair game I guess. You have an axe to grind on the topic so obviously you are a bit more educated on the subject than most.

By the way, viewing something favourable doesn't necessarily mean that people will vote for it. People are not fully rational beings and hence can be scared off on specific question, this is how Tories have operated to win. Even more severe case are Republicans in America on the topic.

The problem with Corbyn was always that it was so easy to send his policies in to the fear territory because they are so unknown and have been "unnatural" for lack of a better word for some time now. He also chooses to allign himself to ideas, people or ideaologies that are detrimental to his internal policies within the UK. Hamas and Palestein is one of those subjects for example but not the only one. Basically if he just walked with his policies and kept silent or neutral on controversial groups and ideas then he might have a chance but that is simply who he is not. This might sound like a little problem because who the fuck really cares about Hamas when it is an internal policy question but in reality that just made him more and more open to the "fear" criticism. Which actually works also on members on labour themselves.

You might hate Starmer also because you think that he is a "Labour Tory" but in reality, he might be the best chance of passing Corbyns policies. How many of them will be left is the real question though because now the internal fighting in labour is still ongoing. Once again, this infighting started during Corbyn so it is his legacy which transitioned in to Starmers head ache.

The infighting in the British Labour Party has been ongoing since at least the early 1980s and the shock of Thatcher’s first electoral victory. The two main faction - loosely, New Labour and the Old Left - have been see-sawing ever since. Starmer will not change that, any more than Corbyn did.

[B0ycey]

By the way, viewing something favourable doesn't necessarily mean that people will vote for it. People are not fully rational beings and hence can be scared off on specific question, this is how Tories have operated to win. Even more severe case are Republicans in America on the topic.

The problem with Corbyn was always that it was so easy to send his policies in to the fear territory because they are so unknown and have been "unnatural" for lack of a better word for some time now.

Corbyn was part of two general elections, both have a story to tell, and each can be explained why results went the way they did.

The first thing you need to understand is the media have never liked Corbyn. He has links to Red Action and as such has links to radical organisations. Forget Hamas, association to the IRA is never a positive in our politics and hatred towards them is something that is bipartisan. So in the first election, May had a lead so big that in one of her walks in Wales, she thought, and rightly so, that one way to get through the Brexit mess was to have another election, get a massive lead and pass her bill that way. However she did one massive mistake. She knew Brexit was going to be expensive so in order to pay for it, she announced the worse manifesto in history. And Corbyn announced a manifesto of hope. What happened next can only be described as a miracle. That massive lead did what can only be described as a nose dive and May tried to row back on her bollocks manifesto but it was too late. She then had even worse number of MPs and had to form a coalition. Which then ended up in her having to resign and we ended up with Johnson. Had it not been for that manifesto, she would have been in power today, we still wouldn't be taking about NI and I expect would be getting along with France.

So what does that story say? Well it says that Corbyns policies are popular, even in the UK, and even if the politician who is behind them is being ostracised by the media. So why didn't he win the second election you might ask? Well a little thing called Brexit. You might have heard of it. I don't know. I don't think it was big news in Estonia. The last election was the Brexit election. The only policy anyone was interested on was Brexit. You were either a leaver or a remainer. The Tories couldn't break through the Red Wall without Brexit and Labour will rebuild it next time given that. And the numbers at that time was mainly for remain as showcased by the Lib Dems success in the European election. The issue was that even though Leave had less than 50% of the electorate, they only had two parties to vote for. Remain had three and with Labour that made four. So they were at a disadvantage. So what Corbyn did was try and fence sit. But it didn't work. If your offer was another referendum, that to leavers was as good as being a remainer and as such they went for Tories. Farage then did what can only be described as a master stroke and only fought in districts that Labour were likely to win (the red wall) and Swinson and Corbyn were fighting amongst themselves when they should have been cooperating.

Corbyn couldn't win the last election whatever policies he had. There was a question mark whether they were affordable in any case at the time, seems since Covid, it was proof his awesome 2019 manifesto was indeed affordable. But I digest, he couldn't win the last election and was ultimately was the factor that decided whether the Tories or the Lib Dems won I guess.

[ingliz]

the Lib Dems

Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson went into the general election predicting numerous gains and ended up losing her seat.

So much for winning.

12-1=11 (1.7%)

[Rich]

Well, ingliz, if you’ve had to choose as I have in the past, then you’d know there’s a big difference between Thatcher and Blair.

Indeed there was, the thing was Blair actually wanted to destroy Britain as it had been, he didn't want to just talk about destroying Britain as with the likes of Corbyn. Tony Blair used mass immigration quite consciously to irreversibly change Britain. It has to be admitted that there's quite some irony to Corbyn being attacked for his IRA sympathies. Corbyn succeeded in in getting a couple of IRA members into the Commons' Tea Room. Tony Blair succeeded in getting them into government.

Thatcher had easily beaten labour in three general elections. It would stupid to deny that some of her policies weren’t popular with the working class.
The right to buy. The right to vote before agreeing to strike.

There really is no excuse for the myth that Thatcher trounced the Labour party. The main way she won in 1979 was by squeezing the Liberal vote. Her vote percentage fell in 1983 and 1987. Her 1983 and 1987 results were on a par with the results of May, Boris and Major in 92.

Also what in God's name is this "working class" that people keep referring to? Small business people, managers executives and even some of the super rich like Elon musk seem to do a lot of work, but often seem to be excluded from the term working class. I'm no great fanboi, a colony on Mars strikes me as ridiculous, but I categorically refuse ( no pun intended) to accept any definition of the term "working class" that doesn't include Elon Musk.

[B0ycey]

Also what in God's name is this "working class" that people keep referring to? Small business people, managers executives and even some of the super rich like Elon musk seem to do a lot of work, but often seem to be excluded from the term working class. I'm no great fanboi, a colony on Mars strikes me as ridiculous, but I categorically refuse ( no pun intended) to accept any definition of the term "working class" that doesn't include Elon Musk.

How can Musk be categorised as lower is a class system based on employment, wealth and skill?

He is a CEO and wealthiest man on the planet. Small business owners would be deemed as Middle class due to their income. Besides, do you think Musk would vote for Corbyn?

[Wellsy]

Basically, I just quoted what a typical British police officer will say to a suspect as they are arresting them. So yes, we do have an equivalent of Miranda's rights, and I just quoted it.

In theory you have the right to remain silent, but in practice they can just beat a confession out of you, which is the case pretty much anywhere in the world. Lol.

My father told me a story about a bloke he knew who spoke like he was stoned, his name was Ronnie Digman but he would stretch out his surname like “Diiigg Maaaan”.
He got picked up by the police for something and the first question of their interrogation was “What’s your name?”.
Well he told em, “Ronnie Diiig Maaaan”.
*whack*, “what’s your name smart ass?”
He told em again and got hit with the phonebook again, went on for a while XD
Poor bastard.

He was adamant that soon as the cops enter your house you’re fucked, don’t need to find anything to nab ya, can just plant something and whats to stop em?

[Potemkin]

My father told me a story about a bloke he knew who spoke like he was stoned, his name was Ronnie Digman but he would stretch out his surname like “Diiigg Maaaan”.
He got picked up by the police for something and the first question of their interrogation was “What’s your name?”.
Well he told em, “Ronnie Diiig Maaaan”.
*whack*, “what’s your name smart ass?”
He told em again and got hit with the phonebook again, went on for a while XD
Poor bastard.

Yep. The police don't like people having a diiiig maaaan....

He was adamant that soon as the cops enter your house you’re fucked, don’t need to find anything to nab ya, can just plant something and whats to stop em?

Wise man. Lol.

[JohnRawls]

The infighting in the British Labour Party has been ongoing since at least the early 1980s and the shock of Thatcher’s first electoral victory. The two main faction - loosely, New Labour and the Old Left - have been see-sawing ever since. Starmer will not change that, any more than Corbyn did.

Fine may be it even predates Corbyn, but as much as I heard, reds were pretty severely purged in the 80s and 90s so Corbyn had to basically rebuild. But that disrupted the unity within labour once again.

@B0ycey

Fair enough. Although Red Action association goes under associations with groups or ideologies that might be detrimental to internal political chances along with Hamas and Ira etc.

The 2nd election that was about Brexit, I do definitely agree with that one. And I said as such when that election was ongoing. Although I thought that there was a chance for a coalition which never materialised. I don't remember much but wasn't Corbyn the main reason the remain coalition didn't materialise?

[ingliz]

wasn't Corbyn the main reason the remain coalition didn't materialise?

No, it was Swinson.

She of the 12 seats (soon to be 11) had this odd idea she should be Prime Minister in any coalition government.

[B0ycey]

Fair enough. Although Red Action association goes under associations with groups or ideologies that might be detrimental to internal political chances along with Hamas and Ira etc.

The 2nd election that was about Brexit, I do definitely agree with that one. And I said as such when that election was ongoing. Although I thought that there was a chance for a coalition which never materialised. I don't remember much but wasn't Corbyn the main reason the remain coalition didn't materialise?

With the last election, a coalition would only have been possible if both Labour and the Lib Dems dropped out in key marginal seats. It might be unknown to you but Remain parties had a greater share of the popular vote in the last election but FPTP is a bitch for marginal seats.

But really you need to look at the election before to see what could be possible for UK politics. As you say, association with Red Action (or more specifically the IRA), isn't popular and the slurs the UK press did on Corbyn was immense. But if the alternative his high taxes, social care taxes and the return of austerity, then the UK public will vote for Socialism. May took the public for granted given how well she did in the local elections a year before. But her manifesto was terrible and Corbyn could have won that election had he received media support.

Corbyn was the wrong man at the wrong time. The next Corbynite may well take the election if they can get back into power within Labour. Long-Bailey has a great relationship with both Starmer and Burnham, two Blairites who would stand behind her and her policies if she obtained leadership.

[B0ycey]

Johnson's new advice over Omicron.

[Rich]

I have to say I really do find Boris's Chief Whip detestable. What's his name? I think its Keir Starmer.

@B0ycey, I can't remember which thread this came up in, but no my comments about the radical implications of the "Social Democrat" label were not made because I have some ignorant American view of the history of the socialist movement, but because my understanding is that some Social Democrat labelled parties joined the Third International on mass, not just a left wing split from the main Social Democratic party. Off the top of my head I think the Transylvania Social Democrats might have been one.

I wasn't aware of this supposed Jeremy Corbyn /Red Action connection. I'm not sure I've even spoken to a member of Red Action. They claim to have been the instigators of AFA, forming it with Workers Power and the DAM. I have known people who have been members of the latter. I know Red Action made big claims as to their achievements in fighting far right groups. I don't know how accurate these claims were, but its possible that Corbyn's relationship with Red Action was essentially one of practical security.

[B0ycey]

@B0ycey, I can't remember which thread this came up in, but no my comments about the radical implications of the "Social Democrat" label were not made because I have some ignorant American view of the history of the socialist movement, but because my understanding is that some Social Democrat labelled parties joined the Third International on mass, not just a left wing split form the main Social Democratic party.. Off the top of my head I think the Transylvania Social Democrats might have been one.

I wasn't aware of this supposed Jeremy Corbyn /Red Action connection. I'm not sure I've even spoken to a member of Red Action. They claim to have been the instigators of AFA, forming it with Workers Power and the DAM. I have known people who have been members of the latter. I know Red Action made big claims as to their achievements in fighting far right groups. I don't know how accurate these claims were, but its possible that Corbyn's relationship with Red Action was essentially one of practical security.

The paradigm of the left-right shift is a complex one @Rich, in any case I think the mean different things to different users. I always consider, for the sakes of argument, that Social Democracy is a Centre-left movement, Socialism to Republican Americans is merely centre-right, Socialism to Democrat Americans is Centre and Socialism to Stalinists PoFo Users is militant far left politics that is so far left that it has shoehorned to the far right. Corbyn isn't asking for the end of the free market and his manifesto was just a manifesto of renationalisation within a free market capitalist model. So he has to be a Social Democrat and no more. Red Action is merely a precursor for Antifa in which he had some links to it due to mutual interest but no affiliation to it for security purposes FYI.

But I digest, Corbyn is no longer going to break into UK politics in any meaningful capacity, so whatever his past, it isn't going to matter anymore. The Labour Corbynites will have to rally behind Long-Bailey, who is Corbyn without the baggage, with Union support, who also has Blairite support. And she will be a factor in the future due to the youth factor. Because ultimately when you poll Corbyns policies, they by and large have majority support and most definitely within the Younger voter demographic. So we will eventually move towards Social Democracy, very much like the Nordic model in the next decade or so.

Besides, it is about time the wealthy pay their fair share of tax don't you think?

[ingliz]

Red Action

A smear.

In 2018, the Times of London reported as fact that Corbyn was involved in the group in the 80s and 90s; on investigating, the police found no evidence to link Corbyn to the group or its activities.

so far left that it has shoehorned to the far right

Strange then, historically, it has always been the wishy-washy centrists such as yourself who have supported far-right and fascist regimes.

They seem to prefer to have them in power over the socialists.

[B0ycey]

Strange then, historically, it has always been the wishy-washy centrists such as yourself who have supported far-right and fascist regimes.

They seem to prefer to have them in power over the socialists.

They found no links to Corbyn and the IRA. Do better research please.

Nonetheless sorry, but clearly you don't know history. Look up the Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party.




Centrism is quite a new term. It certainly wasn't mainstream in the 70s and 80s. I wouldn't even call it a movement today. It is merely a term associated with the electorate who have beliefs on both the left and right. They aren't extremist. And you will find extremist associate with an ideology but their actions are identical in all but name. Hence the shoehorn.