23 years from NATO's war of aggression vs. Yugoslavia - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15220059
I haven't seen this short video by the filmmaker Gloria La Riva before.

The video follows the former US Attorney General, Ramsey Clark, and his visit to Yugoslavia on the 5th (out of 78) day of heavy bombings by the USA and NATO countries. He witnessed civilian sufferings.

It is "interesting" seeing NATO explanation when the NATO pilot mistakenly bombed the convoy of Albanian refugees killing 64 people. (25:02)..."He dropped his bombs in a good faith, as you would expect the trained pilot from the democratic NATO country to do!"


NATO Targets Yugoslavia: An anti-war documentary

Beginning on March 24, 1999, NATO unleashed a ruthless bombing campaign against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia for 78 days. Despite the devastation wrought on human lives, it was and still is presented as a model of a successful “humanitarian intervention.” In the ANSWER Coalition’s newly digitized edition of NATO Targets Yugoslavia, which features original on-the-ground footage and interviews from during the war, filmmaker Gloria La Riva lifts the veil of imperialist propaganda to reveal the humanitarian crisis caused by the war.

Twenty years later, it remains as important as ever that all people interested in peace learn and remember the lessons from this war, including the roles that economic sanctions played in creating a humanitarian crisis and that the media played in selling the war as just and necessary. From Iraq to Libya to Venezuela, imperialism continues to deploy the same general script to carry out its objectives. The best way to honor the victims and survivors of this brutal war is to expose this script and build a mass anti-war movement in the US to prevent it from playing out again.

For more background information on Yugoslavia, check out this piece by Richard Becker.



https://www.liberationschool.org/nato-t ... ugoslavia/

#15220257

In February 1996, the KLA undertook a series of attacks against police stations and Yugoslav government officers, saying that they had killed Albanian civilians as part of an ethnic cleansing campaign.[37] Later that year, the British weekly The European carried an article by a French expert stating that "German civil and military intelligence services have been involved in training and equipping the rebels with the aim of cementing German influence in the Balkan area. (...) The birth of the KLA in 1996 coincided with the appointment of Hansjoerg Geiger as the new head of the BND (German secret Service). (...) The BND men were in charge of selecting recruits for the KLA command structure from the 500,000 Kosovars in Albania."[38] Matthias Küntzel tried to prove later on that German secret diplomacy had been instrumental in helping the KLA since its creation.[39]

Serbian authorities denounced the KLA as a terrorist organisation and increased the number of security forces in the region. This had the effect of boosting the credibility of the embryonic KLA among the Kosovo Albanian population. Not long before NATO's military action commenced, the U.S. Committee for Refugees and Immigrants reported that "Kosovo Liberation Army ... attacks aimed at trying to 'cleanse' Kosovo of its ethnic Serb population."[40]

One of the goals mentioned by the KLA commanders was the formation of Greater Albania, irredentist concept of lands that are considered to form the national homeland by many Albanians, encompassing Kosovo, Albania, and the ethnic Albanian minority of neighbouring Macedonia and Montenegro.[5][6][31]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Li ... Background




Foreign support

The United States (and NATO) directly supported the KLA.[82] The CIA funded, trained and supplied the KLA (as they had earlier the Bosnian Army).[83] As disclosed to The Sunday Times by CIA sources, "American intelligence agents have admitted they helped to train the Kosovo Liberation Army before NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia".[84][85][86] In 1999, a retired Colonel told that KLA forces had been trained in Albania by former U.S. military working for MPRI.[84]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Li ... gn_support




The Yugoslav authorities, under Slobodan Milošević, regarded the KLA as terrorist group.[13] In February 1998, U.S. President Bill Clinton's special envoy to the Balkans, Robert Gelbard, condemned both the actions of the Serb government and of the KLA, and described the KLA as "without any questions, a terrorist group".[145][146][147] UN resolution 1160 took a similar stance.[148][149]



During the war, the KLA troops collaborated with the NATO troops, and one of its members was called by NATO the embodiment of the Kosovo "freedom fighters". In late 1999 the KLA was disbanded and its members entered the Kosovo Protection Corps.[151] Most states which faced on their territory international activity by the KLA never officially designated it as a terrorist organization. [156]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Li ... rist_group
#15220265
Wels wrote:But you forgot why they got in ;)
Does the name Serbia and Karadžić ring a bell? Mladic?

https://abc13.com/karadzic-genocide/1260611/
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontlin ... rska2.html

Shit happens in wars, and the more wars you wage the more accumulates.


No, no - that's not it. That mythology has been used 4 years earlier for pushing American geo-strategic agenda few hundred kilometers to west from the events in 1999.

But, cool, at least you know it was some kind of false flag attacks. 8)
#15220353

Ian Bancroft wrote in The Guardian: "Though justified by apparently humanitarian considerations, NATO's bombing of Serbia succeeded only in escalating the Kosovo crisis into a full-scale humanitarian catastrophe"; citing a post-war report released by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe he concluded that it is "widely acknowledged that the bulk of the ethnic cleansing and war crimes occurred after the start of [NATO]'s campaign".[27]



Noam Chomsky

Noam Chomsky was also highly critical of the NATO campaign and its aerial bombing in particular, where public utilities were bombed in addition to military targets.[28][29] Chomsky argued that the main objective of the NATO intervention was to integrate FR Yugoslavia into the Western neo-liberal social and economic system, since it was the only country in the region which still defied the Western hegemony prior to 1999.[30] He described bombing of the Radio Television of Serbia as an act of terrorism.[31]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimac ... Yugoslavia
#15220421
Wels wrote:
^ hm fair enough (if this was even targeted as a remark on my post)
Are you really sure that it was only NATO taking side that led to Karadžić's and Mladic's umm conduct of war? Or was this not an integrated part of their strategy early on?



It's more of a big-fish-little-fish kind of dynamic -- also note that, to the West, anything in 'the commons' is automatically a 'tragedy-of-the-commons', and must be privatized (so as to keep it 'safe', ostensibly).

So that goes for ex-Yugoslavia (economic-managerial vacuum), and today it's India:



Support for the strike was especially strong among workers at the many government-owned corporations now targeted for privatization. A key plank of the BJP government’s COVID-19 pandemic “economic recovery program” is a fire sale of public assets to domestic and international capital. Under the government’s new privatization policy all but a handful of public sector enterprises in “strategic sectors” are to be sold off.



https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/0 ... i-m30.html
#15220424
The US-NATO bombardments of Yugoslavia were a terrible thing.

It was brutal, indiscriminate, arrogant and extreme hubris.

Serbia was a US ally for decades, it was a clear Iraq-WMD type of lie, the separatists started the war for no real good reason and refused to abide by peace even after Serbia signed a few of them and very humiliating for itself. The US gave ultimatums to Yugoslavia to accept a full occupation in the entire country not just in the conflict areas and to pay for the costs of the occupational army.

After all this, the US lost all credibility in Europe. The US had brought war and death inside Europe, for no good reason but based on vast lies. The crimes on the ground began after NATO normalized war-crime activity as a deliberate method.

That said it is truly astonishing and embarrassing for the Serbs that the Serbs are totally OK with Russia doing the same to Ukraine, visiting the same kind of horror that they were visited upon and against their own Slavic and Orthodox brothers.

Not to mention that their favorite champion, Russia, has lost another 2 decades itself.

It's truly mind-boggling.
#15220561
@noemon the Karadzic-Milosevic-defender again (advocatus diaboli)

The Serbs committed real war crimes like rape camps, death camps and mass slaughter of civilians what the Russians do not do.

The Russians wage just a conquest war not a "Vernichtungskrieg".


BTW Greeks took also part in the Srebrenica massacre:

#15220730
Wels wrote:So you mean "ethnic cleansing" (=killing), torture and systematic raping in special serbian camps along with doing the same to children does not matter, because.. what?
But whatever floats your boat..


If I prove you that all of this you write about was in fact committed and initiated by Bosnian Muslims and Croats, would it change anything in your opinion?
If I give you the court sentence for the very first war crime in BIH, if I give you the place of the first concentration camp, if I give you the name of the commander of Rape camp for women, if I show you the paper in which military orders "usage of woman for men's purpose", if I give you the name of the officially first camp prisoner in BiH, if I give you the name and place of the first religious object burnt down in BIH, if I give you the name of the first victims in BiH, if I give you video of killer bragging about killing a person thus initiating the war - would it change anything in your way of thinking?

I seriously doubt.

What about this video? Crappy war song, crappier quality...there dozens like this one on all three sides.

#15220733
noemon wrote:The US-NATO bombardments of Yugoslavia were a terrible thing.

It was brutal, indiscriminate, arrogant and extreme hubris.

Serbia was a US ally for decades, it was a clear Iraq-WMD type of lie, the separatists started the war for no real good reason and refused to abide by peace even after Serbia signed a few of them and very humiliating for itself. The US gave ultimatums to Yugoslavia to accept a full occupation in the entire country not just in the conflict areas and to pay for the costs of the occupational army.

After all this, the US lost all credibility in Europe. The US had brought war and death inside Europe, for no good reason but based on vast lies. The crimes on the ground began after NATO normalized war-crime activity as a deliberate method.



This part deserves a like. The rest doesnt belong here.

Sandzak wrote:@noemon the Karadzic-Milosevic-defender again (advocatus diaboli)

The Serbs committed real war crimes like rape camps, death camps and mass slaughter of civilians what the Russians do not do.

The Russians wage just a conquest war not a "Vernichtungskrieg".


BTW Greeks took also part in the Srebrenica massacre:



But, Bosnian Muslims committed, in fact initiated war crimes in Bosnia and Herzegovina, including rape camps, mass murders, ethnic cleansing.

In fact Bosnian Muslims also took part in Srebrenica Massacre (search for Zijad Zigic), also Croats, also Slovenians.
In fact the most prominent killers were: Croat Drazen Erdemovic, Bosnian Muslim Zijad Zigic and Slovenian Franc Kos.

What conclusion we can draw from these court proven facts with unproven parallel about Greek involvement in Srebrenica?
#15220740
Independent_Srpska wrote:If I prove you that all of this you write about was in fact committed and initiated by Bosnian Muslims and Croats, would it change anything in your opinion? [...]

It could, but you are not able to prove it. Evidence, you know.
Even if it was all true (it is not) does it justify serbian ethnic cleansing as it is so.. eloquently called?
#15220757
According UN Numbers are 80% of killed Civilians Bosnians, whereas the number of killed soldiers is nearly the same. on both sides..


At the begining of the war Bosnians took a Serb town (Novi Grad) with 10 000 Serbs living there if we wanted there would be also a Srebrenica, but not one civilian got killed nor one woman raped.


@noemon How many Serb civilians got killed by NATO??? It was not carpet bombing how you write, it was precision bombing, not like scenes from Ukraine.
#15220759
The NATO bombardment of Yugoslavia was far worse bombing than Russian bombing in Ukraine and far worse terms were demanded.

sandjak wrote:BTW Greeks took also part in the Srebrenica massacre:


No they didn't. The article does not say they did, just clickbait.
#15220760
Greece faces shame of role in Serb massacre

War crimes tribunal will hear secrets of support for Milosevic's ethnic cleansing
Helena Smith in Athens
Sun 5 Jan 2003 00.29 GMT
It is what Hellenes have long feared: the shattering of a conspiracy of silence that has surrounded the role of Greek volunteers who proudly flew their flag at Srebrenica, after participating in Europe's worst massacre since the Second World War, when 7,000 men, women and children died.

Next week, as Greece settles into the presidency of the European Union, Milan Milutinovic, Serbia's recently retired president, will be brought before the war crimes tribunal at The Hague. Greek involvement in the atrocity, as well as other secrets Athens would prefer buried, could be revealed when the 60-year-old testifies.

No one, it is said, played such a pivotal role in the alliance between Athens and Belgrade during the Nineties Balkan conflicts. As Yugoslavia's ambassador to Greece, Milutinovic was Slobodan Milosevic's most trusted lieutenant. His links with Greece's political, religious and business elites were allegedly crucial to Serbia's secret economic infrastructure. They allowed the country to evade United Nations sanctions and, according to the International Criminal Tribunal, contributed considerably towards Milosevic's war machine.

When the diplomat was promoted to Foreign Minister in 1994, he retained his Athens post for several months when, EU diplomats say, he stashed away funds to buy villas and other prime properties in Athens and Crete at the behest of his boss.

With Greece's admiring public, pro-Serbian church, tolerant media and governments that supported Milosevic, Athens was seen as a bolt-hole by the now disgraced president. As Bosnian Serb ethnic cleansers torched villages, it was here Milosevic would escape to enjoy the hospitality of Greek politicians. Marko Milosevic, his lascivious smuggler son, declared Greece 'my first home'.

'This is our best-kept secret, the subject no politician of any persuasion has ever wanted to broach,' said Takis Michas, author of Unholy Alliance: Greece and Milosevic's Serbia. 'In an era where everyone is saying sorry, in Greece at least no one has shown remorse for the crimes in Bosnia when undoubtedly a significant proportion of the political establishment bear some responsibility.'

The US-published book, yet to be printed in Greek, records in shocking detail the relationship between the two Orthodox nations, including the leaking of Nato military intelligence under socialist leader Andreas Papandreou.

The Greeks know their past may be catching up with them. After last month's long statement of contrition before the Hague tribunal by the former Bosnian Serb leader, Biljana Plavsic, many believe it is only a matter of time before others open up too.

A Dutch documentary investigating Greek complicity in the Serb wars was aired on local television in which a director of the semi-official Athens News Agency, Nikolas Voulelis, admitted to widespread censorship. During the wars the Greek media was fanatically pro-Serb, portraying Yugoslav Muslims as 'infidel Turks' bent on destroying their Orthodox brethren. 'Editorial interference was a given,' he said.

But it was not only hospitality or money that the Greeks offered. Spiritual succour was provided by the Greek Orthodox church which sent priests to the front line (several clerics received bravery medals from Plavsic).

In a step repeated in no other country, Archbishop Serafeim invited the Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic to visit Athens in 1993. At a mass rally attended by prominent politicians, the indicted war criminal proclaimed: 'We have only God and the Greeks on our side.'

Last year, in a 7,000-page report that the Dutch authorities commissioned into the 1995 Srebrenica massacre, Greece was revealed to have sent shipments of light arms and ammunition to the Bosnian Serb army between 1994 and 1995. The report describes how Greek volunteers were implored, in intercepted army telephone conversations, to raise the Greek flag after the town fell. In one, General Ratko Mladic asked that they record the scene on video for propaganda purposes.

Around 100 soldiers are believed to have joined the Greek Volunteer Guard, formed at Mladic's request. The unit, which fought alongside Russians and Ukrainians, was led by Serb officers and had its own insignia - the double-headed eagle of Byzantium. At least four of its members were awarded the White Eagle medal of honour by Karadzic.

Although their 'heroic' exploits were widely reported in the Greek press, the volunteers have gone to ground since the creation of the war crimes tribunal. No government or party has ever sought an inquiry into their activities.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jan/05/balkans.warcrimes

noemon wrote:It was far worse bombing than Ukraine and far worse terms demanded.

It was brutal but just for Serb War Criminal Hordes, not for civilians.

How many civilians got killed???
#15220773
Wels wrote:It could, but you are not able to prove it. Evidence, you know.
Even if it was all true (it is not) does it justify serbian ethnic cleansing as it is so.. eloquently called?


I can give you one for the beginning, just to check your pulse:

http://www.sudbih.gov.ba/bundles/websitenews/gallery/predmet/2933/15367536531K_9588_14_Kr%C5%BE_Kovacevic_Zemir_drugostepena_30_01_2015_eng.pdf

(if it doesn't download the verdict, please copy the link and paste it in new tab in the browser)

Here is the Court BiH second instance verdict (in English and final) for the first war crime committed on the soil of Bosnia and Herzegovina on 26 March 1992 in village of Sijekovac (municipality Brod, north BiH, on the border with Croatia). 9 (nine) Serbs were massacred (age 17 to 72, one of them (Luka was the name) physically and intellectually challenged, i.e. harmless).
The perpetrator, a Bosnian Muslim (Zemir Kovacevic) was found guilty for murder of 2 persons. He was sentenced to 15 years to jail for these murders.

So, this is the beginning of campaigns of ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

May I ask you - how do you justify this court proven war crime that started the spiral of crimes in Bosnia and Herzegovina and unfortunate conflict between citizens?

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