[noemon]

Wrong!

42% of people on Universal Credit are in employment.

Irrelevant, you are still talking about benefits and not wages.

[ingliz]

wages

What was the UK national minimum wage - erroneously called a national living wage by Osbourne - is not a real living wage. In real terms – in other words, adjusted for inflation – pay excluding bonuses dropped by 2.8% in March to May 2022 compared with the previous year, according to data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

This was a record decline.

[Tainari88]

No it isn't, for the reasons already explained quite adequately. But I am certainly not expecting a broken record like yourself to ever attempt to understand the logic behind it because you are not involved with the British tax system and totally unaware of what people in this country do to avoid the threshold of the higher tax rate. Since literally nobody is paying that threshold and is instead funneling their money to ISA's, SIPP's and ltd companies, the higher tax bracket is effectively redundant and quite worthless as a tax collection mechanism. It is not collecting anything. Reducing it would collect more money for the state and benefits as it would encourage more people to swap their affairs and declare more of their income for income tax.



No it doesn't, the article is quite shameless in saying that inequality will happen, openly and publicly.


Regardless of your virtue-signalling which appears to be the only thing people are capable today, it is quite evident that there are much larger forces at play here.

Come on Noemon, this is hilarious. Is this for real? Inequality will happen and that is the price one has to pay for freedom? Freedom for who? The ones getting the short end of the stick of inequality?

There are much larger forces at play there? Of course the forces of inequality. For freedom.

Noemon I got to go to my kid's school parents activities to play ball together. But you made me laugh hard with this statement here.

I know that was not your intention but it sure lightened up my mind. Riendome. Laughing.

People write this stuff from where?

Ave maria, I got to go....virtue signalling. You are man who does not virtue signal. You tell it like it is in the UK. No one wants to pay taxes. Fuck those taxes. For some dole receivers...who call you with fake calls so they can be rejected officially. I picture you Noemon getting a call from them...

[Noemon says, **are you serious about this position or are you some bloke on the dole trying to get his monthly quid quota from the system? You layabout good for nothing...virtue signaler....I am paying taxes for this?

Slams the phone down.

[ingliz]

inequality will happen

All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.

A real-world example:

In the UK, payouts to FTSE 100 shareholders have increased three times faster than workers' wages this year. And it's only the tightening labour market caused by Brexit and the pandemic that has kept this in check. In 2019, it was nearly 7 times faster. If pay across the UK economy had kept pace with shareholder returns, the average worker would now be over £9,500 better off.

[noemon]

Come on Noemon, this is hilarious. Is this for real? Inequality will happen and that is the price one has to pay for freedom? Freedom for who? The ones getting the short end of the stick of inequality?

Serious question, do you discuss about anything at all with other people other than advertising yourself as a better person than your interlocutor?

There are much larger forces at play there? Of course the forces of inequality. For freedom.

You cannot seriously believe that in a 48 billion budget giveaway to all the people in this country via energy bills, and reduced NI contributions, it is the 2 billion of the top tax rate or the £500 per year of those earning 100k will increase inequality to levels that justify a run on the sterling, gilts and bonds to the tune of 500 billion losses?

You cannot seriously believe that the Head of the IMF or Biden's chief of staff who preside over in a country with a lower top tax rate and a higher threshold actually believe this to be the case?

No Tainari, this is not about "inequality" at all, this is about making the British tax system more efficient in actually collecting more taxes. It was actually a trap for high-earners to change their tax affairs so that the government collects even more out of them from income tax which is the highest of all taxes.

It was about increasing the pool of taxable income in the country.

Noemon I got to go to my kid's school parents activities to play ball together. But you made me laugh hard with this statement here.

I know that was not your intention but it sure lightened up my mind. Riendome. Laughing.

People write this stuff from where?

I think it is quite a sad state of affairs. You are totally uninterested to figure out what the bone with the UK actually is. Hint: It is definitely not the 2 billion tax re-arrangement of the top tax bracket that got cancelled anyway.

Ave maria, I got to go....virtue signalling. You are man who does not virtue signal. You tell it like it is in the UK.

Indeed, I do not virtue-signal Tainari and that has never been my modus operandi in here and that is why people of both sides of the spectrum as well as Greek adversaries take me a lot more seriously, because I do actually try to figure out what is going on regardless of looks.

No one wants to pay taxes. Fuck those taxes.

Please do not misinterpret my words, it's rude.

People earning 100K and above(to whom the top tax rate would apply), do not pay the 45% tax rate in the UK. They use ISA's, SIPP's and LTD companies to split their income and reduce their declared income to below 100K so that they pay 40% instead. The rest of their money, they put in any or all of these 3 categories to protect them from tax.

For some dole receivers...who call you with fake calls so they can be rejected officially. I picture you Noemon getting a call from them...

Noemon says, **are you serious about this position or are you some bloke on the dole trying to get his monthly quid quota from the system? You layabout good for nothing...virtue signaler....I am paying taxes for this?

Slams the phone down.

I see, once again you are trying to position yourself as some kind of Cinderella, arguing with a [Capitalist] Beast.

As I said before, the issue is not the cost of benefits, the issue is that our economy is collapsing and has gone into a meltdown because we have zero unemployment, companies are unable to hire people to do jobs because there aren't any. All the while there are 5 million people idling, doing literally nothing but applying for jobs via email, getting a response and then not showing up, so that these people have an email to show off to the dole officers that they are at least trying.

I'm sure you do not appreciate your customers or helpers, calling you to make a reservation and arranging with you to meet but never showing up thus taking you out of your children for no reason other than simply toying with you. Imagine that happening on a national scale to businesses 2-3 times a week. Being stood up without notice.

You would not appreciate it either.

Another thing you fail to realise, is that if this snowball of the British economy on a free-fall continues, then there will be no benefits at all.

All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.

A real-world example:

In the UK, payouts to FTSE 100 shareholders have increased three times faster than workers' wages this year. And it's only the tightening labour market caused by Brexit and the pandemic that has kept this in check. In 2019, it was nearly 7 times faster. If pay across the UK economy had kept pace with shareholder returns, the average worker would now be over £9,500 better off.

FTSE 100 lost -12% in 2018 and -14% in 2020. Are you saying that national wages should follow the FTSE index for them to be fair? or follow it only in the good times? And not follow it during the bad times?

Wages are high in the UK, unemployment has been very low for decades, get over it and move on.

[Rich]

No Tainari, this is not about "inequality" at all, this is about making the British tax system more efficient in actually collecting more taxes. It was actually a trap for high-earners to change their tax affairs so that the government collects even more out of them from income tax which is the highest of all taxes.

It was about increasing the pool of taxable income in the country.

No it wasn't, because the cut of 45p to 40 was combined with cancelling the planned increase in corporation and capital gains from 19% to 25%. So under Trusses plan the gap in rates was going to be 21% rather the 20% difference under Sunak's plan. So no this was about increasing borrowing, making the tax system less efficient in order to funnel money to the richest and increase inequality.

The reason this happened is because of our awful election system. First past the post, unfixed elections of anything up to five years and American style primary elections for leaders. This means that Truss won by pandering to her electorate, the conservative party members who are a tiny percentage of the population and totally unrepresentative in terms of age, income, property ownership and many other things.

[ingliz]

Are you saying that national wages should follow the FTSE index for them to be fair?

No, I am saying if FTSE 100 shareholder payouts can increase nearly seven times faster than workers' wages when times are bad - FTSE 100 lost -12% in 2018 and -14% in 2020 (your numbers) - why can't workers' wages rise at a similar pace?

[noemon]

No, I am saying if FTSE 100 shareholder payouts can increase nearly seven times faster than workers' wages when times are bad - FTSE 100 lost -12% in 2018 and -14% in 2020 (your numbers) - why can't workers' wages rise at a similar pace?

No? You are saying it indeed, that wages should rise the same as FTSE 100 in the good times but that they should not fall by -(minus) in the bad times. Magic is not possible, but what is possible is to go the commie way and equalise everybody down by government fiat which is what you commies consider "fair". We should all be poor to show these people who dare make more money than we do.

Pink unicorns combined with criminal jealousy.

No it wasn't, because the cut of 45p to 40 was combined with cancelling the planned increase in corporation and capital gains from 19% to 25%. So under Trusses plan the gap in rates was going to be 21% rather the 20% difference under Sunak's plan. So no this was about increasing borrowing, making the tax system less efficient in order to funnel money to the richest and increase inequality.

It's quite funny how people like Keir Starmer, yourself and others already consider a non-increase to a tax as a giveaway to the "rich". It's quite surreal stuff. Truss announces that corporation tax will stay the same and she is being accused of giving away "billions to the rich".

The "rich" do not pay taxes in this country or anywhere in the western world actually. And unless western governments do not agree on a global tax regime for rich companies, it will never happen.

The companies that do pay corporation tax are the little mom's and pop's stores, hotels, restaurants who have no ability to transfer money in Ireland and other tax havens.

This group of companies have been dealt a triple whammy of double wages, no staff to operate, 20 times higher energy bills and a 30% increase on their overall & aggregate taxation as well as reduced revenues.

The result, by next year several thousand of little companies will go bust and more than enough people will lose their jobs so that we attain a regular unemployment rate of more than 6%, it could even go as far as 15% but who cares right?

The reality is quite simple really.

Our economy's supply side is unable to match the demand, Rishi's contractionary plan is aimed to reduce demand to the levels that supply can provide. Tax them enough, so that they spend less, go out less, eat less so that demand comes down to what supply can provide. Truss's expansionary policy is aimed at increasing supply so that it can match demand before the crunch on our economy happens. Crunches are catastrophic to an economy.

Under Rishi's plan you are looking at a massive GDP contraction, thus making everybody poorer and under Liz's plan you are gambling whatever little you have left to prevent a further contraction by telling companies to find the ways to increase their output so that demand can be satisfied.

The reason this happened is because of our awful election system. First past the post, unfixed elections of anything up to five years and American style primary elections for leaders. This means that Truss won by pandering to her electorate, the conservative party members who are a tiny percentage of the population and totally unrepresentative in terms of age, income, property ownership and many other things.

You are absolutely deluded to believe that Keir Starmer could challenge the Tories before this past month.

This past month what we have witnessed is quite unique, we have witnessed Biden, the IMF, the World Bank and a series of foreign people trashing our government for doing precisely what they were elected to do and several times over by very high margins. And despite the u-turns, these guys are still relentlessly attacking our economy, stock market, currency and bonds.

Behind all this is of course Brexit, but please do not let reality come in between a good virtue-signal.

Lastly, the overall tax burden in the UK is close to 30% of GDP while in the US it is closer to 10% of GDP.
Still we are being maliciously lectured and having our economy sustaining a barrage of cannon attacks because some people consider this to be fair. Useful idiots included.

We have the highest overall tax burden since 1948 already, we have massive structural problems in our labor market and your solution is to increase taxes by 20-30% further? because that way you get to pretend that you are taxing the "rich".



But you 're really not taxing anybody, tax receipts will go down overall, the economy will contract, benefits will be cancelled and everybody will be miserable.

We've seen the movie before a million times.

To make matters worse this tax increase policy is being championed by Rishi Sunak, a multi-billionaire whose wife is not even a UK tax resident and supported by the IMF, who is the spearhead of national impoverishment but no red flags happening for you guys?

Mmmmkay....

[Tainari88]

Serious question, do you discuss about anything at all with other people other than advertising yourself as a better person than your interlocutor?

I don't do advertising. I just write what I think needs to be said. If you agree or not? It is up to you to respond eh? Like you always do. That you think I am better than you are, or that you believe I am not better than you are, has to do with your own thoughts not mine eh? I am not better than any other human being. I just like to think about something besides capitalism. Because that is the dominant model for most of the entire world. If everyone agreed to stop trying to question it? Where would it evolve and how? No questioning systems you get no change at all. And that is not life.



You cannot seriously believe that in a 48 billion budget giveaway to all the people in this country via energy bills, and reduced NI contributions, it is the 2 billion of the top tax rate or the £500 per year of those earning 100k will increase inequality to levels that justify a run on the sterling, gilts and bonds to the tune of 500 billion losses?

I think the British are fearful of what is going on with Russian energy and Germany's response to it. And to placate possible repercussions the giveaways are happening. Why? Fear is in the water. Do you agree or not?

You cannot seriously believe that the Head of the IMF or Biden's chief of staff who preside over in a country with a lower top tax rate and a higher threshold actually believe this to be the case?

Where did I say that was the case Senor Noemon eh? I was laughing because inequality keeping us free is a very absurd sentence if you take it literally. Because it could mean that someone has to work for low wages to keep the rest of the ones not having to work the low wages freer. That is funny that logic or lack of it for me? Does it occur to you Noemon that in nations that have very very low wages like Mexico and specifically Yucatan that if you stopped someone on the street here (no one lives on the dole Noemon in Mexico, that is a very EU and UK thing and does not apply in Mexico. I am thinking of Mexico Noemon, not the USA or the UK. Here many businesses went bust and the owners had to accept total debt. And firing many employees. It is a totally different consequence of the covid issue.

No Tainari, this is not about "inequality" at all, this is about making the British tax system more efficient in actually collecting more taxes. It was actually a trap for high-earners to change their tax affairs so that the government collects even more out of them from income tax which is the highest of all taxes.

It was about increasing the pool of taxable income in the country.

Did I say it was not about that? No, I did not. I am learning about Mexican taxes because I am going to be paying them soon. Only 22% of taxpayers pay taxes in Mexico. The entire system of taxes here is extremely frustrating. I don't think you are the only person in the UK who says that the UK tax system is inefficient. I have heard it before. A lot. Siberian Fox mentioned it long ago and many UK members here also do so. Tax dodging is the reason many Caribbean islands have the tax systems that they do. The region of the world I am from Noemon? Are into contraband, tax dodging, and so on mostly for historical reasons. All the European monarchies from the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries and beyond, wanted to tax the colonial places to death in order to finance their lavish lifestyles. The natives got tired of it and eventually, there was trouble with that...the Pirates of the Caribbean Disney World ride did have a basis in fact. Piracy was about illegality. Because the legality of the taxes always favored people who were not living in the places the taxes were collected. Collect the tax to send to the Spanish Crown, the English crown, the French crown, the Portuguese Crown, the Dutch crown, etc. So what happens? Tax dodging to keep some for your own land. Not for the monarchy. If you are inefficient then why not get the ones hanging about to work? Maybe because they don't trust the ones in charge of the treasury either...I am joshing with you Noemon. Don't take offense. It is Sunday morning eh?

I think it is quite a sad state of affairs. You are totally uninterested to figure out what the bone with the UK actually is. Hint: It is definitely not the 2 billion tax re-arrangement of the top tax bracket that got cancelled anyway.

Do you really want to hear the headaches I get with the SAT (the Servicio de Administracion Tributaria? Go and get frustrated as hell trying to get an appointment Noemon with those people. The most inefficient fucked up system the world has ever known. Guaranteed. So you see why knowing the ins and outs of tax problems are not appealing to me? Lol. I just know...got to pay them taxes. Or else! Same as you Noemon. When it comes to taxes and bureaucracy? All nations become the great equalizer of pain in the ass pencil pushing nightmares. I do agree.


Indeed, I do not virtue-signal Tainari and that has never been my modus operandi in here and that is why people of both sides of the spectrum as well as Greek adversaries take me a lot more seriously, because I do actually try to figure out what is going on regardless of looks.

I wonder where you go in order to discuss Greek politics? You remain here? This forum does mostly all debates in the English language. I assume you want really Greek debates in Greek political life to take place in Greek? You should do it in Greek no? I don't go for Latin American debates in English you know? It severely limits your pool of companions and potential debating partners.



Please do not misinterpret my words, it's rude.

What is rude? Writing a dialog about what you might be going through with the dole seekers? Political debate can get very heavy Noemon, for all of us. My sense of humor might differ from yours. But keeping it light once a while is a good practice.

People earning 100K and above(to whom the top tax rate would apply), do not pay the 45% tax rate in the UK. They use ISA's, SIPP's and LTD companies to split their income and reduce their declared income to below 100K so that they pay 40% instead. The rest of their money, they put in any or all of these 3 categories to protect them from tax.

I think the issue is not having enough workers working. One has to question why so many people stay on the sidelines of work Noemon in the UK system. I believe in balance. You work and then you rest. You put in efforts and when the work is over and it is time for family, then it is time for family. Burnout does no one any good. But neither does idleness for long periods. Both are not about balance. And I am always wanting balance for people. It is the best for mental health.





I see, once again you are trying to position yourself as some kind of Cinderella, arguing with a [Capitalist] Beast.
Did I call myself a Cinderella? No, you did. I don't see myself that way at all. Are you a capitalist beast? Not by a long shot Noemon. You love writing. Like I do. And many of the people who write on here share that with you and me. They love to write. It should be a good base for commonality. And for building on. Amor for the written word.

As I said before, the issue is not the cost of benefits, the issue is that our economy is collapsing and has gone into a meltdown because we have zero unemployment, and companies are unable to hire people to do jobs because there aren't any. All the while there are 5 million people idling, doing literally nothing but applying for jobs via email, getting a response, and then not showing up, so that these people have an email to show off to the dole officers that they are at least trying.

Noemon, you are lucky you live in a nation that has officers trying to get people receiving some kind of benefit at all in hard times. I am sure living on the dole is not about luxuries Noemon. But surviving. Mexico is much harder. You either go out and sell the tamales, the bread you make like my neighbor does or you will find yourself in total abject poverty and without any means. Life is hard for the Mexicans. I am always amazed how pleasant and friendly and nice they continue to be despite it all. It is something to be admired. I always liked and appreciated the Mexican work ethic. It is something they do automatically Noemon. It is just living life for them. Doles are out of the question.

I'm sure you do not appreciate your customers or helpers, calling you to make a reservation and arranging with you to meet but never showing up thus taking you out of your children for no reason other than simply toying with you. Imagine that happening on a national scale to businesses 2-3 times a week. Being stood up without notice.

You would not appreciate it either.
Yucatecans are notoriously late and stand up everyone all the time. Even people you call to come by for an emergency like broken pipes, broken toilets or broken electrical fuse boxes, etc. Punctuality is not Yucatecan at all. They waste time a lot. I just appreciate them when they finally show up. I make friends and voila. Problem solved. Adaptation is a great quality to develop for any culture you happen to live in.

Another thing you fail to realise, is that if this snowball of the British economy on a free-fall continues, then there will be no benefits at all.





FTSE 100 lost -12% in 2018 and -14% in 2020. Are you saying that national wages should follow the FTSE index for them to be fair? or follow it only in the good times? And not follow it during the bad times?

Wages are high in the UK, unemployment has been very low for decades, get over it and move on.

I am thinking don't do a Brexit at all. It won't benefit anyone. In the long run. Let in new workers and make it attractive to move there, and fix that low unemployment problem. Also, don't think it is easy recruiting new young vibrant educated people with modern skills. There is going to be competition for them. But did you know that Mexico produces more engineers than Germany does. And there are great places to bring in people for projects. Again there are solutions for every nation. But they need to be open minded and also be willing to be flexible, and learn foreign languages, and get investment in paying people enough to make it worth it getting off the dole. If you do the math and you wind up not making much of difference between working full time with very low wages and or staying home and living off the dole? Homo Sapien is going to say? Stay home.

Got to make it attractive to work. For me? Interesting work, interesting people, and interesting results make it worth it.

I have to be truthful Noemon. I love my job. I got to manage the property. I did that and I got great tenants. I manage my business. And the client is the best I could hope for that not even in my wildest dreams I thought I could achieve that. It happens because you believe in people. I am a humanist. I believe in people. Human beings are able to do better. We are master adapters Noemon. If we put our many minds together to work on hard problems? They will be resolved. I firmly believe that.

I hope I did not offend you Noemon. I got to apologize to you if I did. I apologize.

I like being playful.

[noemon]

You did offend me by trying to paint me as some kind of capitalist caricature that ought to be dismissed instead of attempting to discuss with me but I honestly appreciate your apology. Thanks and sorry if I came out rude as well.

For the record, I do not believe that you are better than me, but it is a fact that the vast majority of this forum and the internet as a whole is no longer discussing anything other, "my morality is better than yours" regardless of the fact that people genuinely have no clue of what it is they are actually talking about. "I support the poor you support the rich, I am good and you are bad." Discussion over. Right.

I supported Jeremy Corbyn, openly and publicly in here twice but somehow Rishi Sunak is the champion of the poor, a multi-billionaire whose wife is not even a tax resident. But I am the evil "Tory".

I saw this movie before and I am seeing it again.

[ingliz]

People earning 100K and above(to whom the top tax rate would apply), do not pay the 45% tax rate in the UK. They use ISA's, SIPP's and LTD companies to split their income and reduce their declared income to below 100K so that they pay 40% instead. The rest of their money, they put in any or all of these 3 categories to protect them from tax.

Close the loopholes that allow them to do this and the tax will be paid.

It's not rocket science.

[ckaihatsu]

benefits are a luxury that goes first when an economy goes into a recession.

Isn't this a *political* / policy thing, though -- ?

Why is the default to bring back *austerity*, when the budget *should* rightfully be picked-through all over again.

It will be all those people whom you all pretend to care for their equality that will be impoverished.

At the end of the day if the state is insolvent, benefits and social care will be the first to go.

And the state will become insolvent for it has entered the wage deflation spiral, wages going up, inflation going up higher eradicating the wins from extra wages, and eradicating the wins of extra taxes for government as the extra money are funneled into higher interest rates.

The deflationary cycle is totally and utterly destructive. It needs to be broken instead of subsuming ourselves under it which is what the markets, Labour and half the Tory party are demanding.

Truss & Kwasi have rightly identified it so and they are being bombarded by the left, their own party, by the papers and by the markets to take the opposite action.

It's surreal.

I think we should just honestly admit that the UK economy is the most *vulnerable* (because of Brexit), and is already getting *squeezed* by the sea-change in the global capitalist economy, as is the *EU* economy, too, now.

[noemon]

Close the loopholes that allow them to do this and the tax will be paid.

It's not rocket science.

What percent of tax to gdp ratio will you be happy with?

50%, 90% 99%?

Give us a figure.

American tax is about 10% of GDP, Britains around 30% of GDP, Americans are lecturing the UK of giving tax breaks, how much should the difference be so that the Americans stop lecturing us?

The UK's tax to gdp ratio is currently at 36.9% the highest for 7 decades, Truss's policy aimed to make it 36% which is the 2011-13 levels under the eye of the storm of the previous global crisis.

Isn't this a *political* / policy thing, though -- ?

Why is the default to bring back *austerity*, when the budget *should* rightfully be picked-through all over again.

When you are insolvent and the economy on a free fall, your tax collecting abilities get destroyed. The only way of finding the money to stay solvent is by taking it directly from your largest expenses, NHS, benefits and pensioners are the sitting ducks able to provide immediate cash. As this is by far the largest government expense by very very far, it is also the largest pool of immediately available money. Progressive working backwards.

[ckaihatsu]

equalise everybody down by government fiat

commie way

We should all be poor

I'll invite you to go over some of these *stereotypes* -- I would say.

Does society these days ultimately *need* a standing government, or could all producers of the world collectively 'co-administrate' over *their own workplaces* -- all social production / factories / workplaces.

Do you *really* think the commie point is to make sure everyone jumps to the exact same height on the high-bar, or is it really more about the overall *political economy* -- ending capitalism.


Social Production Worldview

Spoiler: show

---

Truss announces that corporation tax will stay the same and she is being accused of giving away "billions to the rich".

Why isn't the corporate tax rate being dynamically adjusted to reflect the rising *inflation* rate -- ? Isn't the status quo effectively a *dodge*, like an employer not-increasing *wages* to reflect the rising inflation rate.

Our economy's supply side is unable to match the demand, Rishi's contractionary plan is aimed to reduce demand to the levels that supply can provide.

This, then, is empircally a 'market failure' -- why should our technologically advanced societies *not* be able to approrpriately 'grow', as needed.

Overall I'll note that you're arguing for a *Keynesian*-type / supply-side / trickle-down approach, but there's simply no more *wiggle room* left, for maneuverability, for recovery.

[ckaihatsu]

What percent of tax to gdp ratio will you be happy with?

50%, 90% 99%?

Give us a figure.

American tax is about 10% of GDP, Britains around 30% of GDP, Americans are lecturing the UK of giving tax breaks, how much should the difference be so that the Americans stop lecturing us?



When you are insolvent and the economy on a free fall, your tax collecting abilities get destroyed. The only way of finding the money to stay solvent is by taking it directly from your largest expenses, NHS, benefits and pensioners are the sitting ducks able to provide immediate cash. As this is by far the largest government expense by very very far, it is also the largest pool of immediately available money. Progressive working backwards.

Yeah, well, see, that's what it is -- *insolvency*. The U.S. isn't far behind, either, nor the EU.

But the 1929-like magnitude and urgency makes the politics all the more topical, and pressing -- the price of nation-state economic 'solvency' at this point isn't worth it because it's money that's removed from the *real economy*, for the sake of *balance sheets*. It's a *corpse*.

[ckaihatsu]

Go back to sun-worship, maybe -- ?


= D

[noemon]

I'll invite you to go over some of these *stereotypes* -- I would say.

Does society these days ultimately *need* a standing government, or could all producers of the world collectively 'co-administrate' over *their own workplaces* -- all social production / factories / workplaces.

Do you *really* think the commie point is to make sure everyone jumps to the exact same height on the high-bar, or is it really more about the overall *political economy* -- ending capitalism.

Ingliz's point is explicitly about the "unfairness" of workers not making the same money as gamblers but only when the gamblers are in the positive. His solution which is also the communist solution is to evaporate the risk-taking gamblers so that noone can be perceived of making more or less.

Of course gamblers go bankrupt and register losses a lot more often than people realise but let's just ignore everything that is inconvenient to our fantasies.

And more importantly, this is not how you structure an economy. People should be free to pursue their own ends and assume the responsibilities for their own actions and choices.

Life is bleak in a totalitarian state controlling your life in the name of sameness.

[ckaihatsu]

Ingliz's point is explicitly about the "unfairness" of workers not making the same money as gamblers but only when the gamblers are in the positive.

Okay, okay, everyone step aside.... (rolling up sleeves) (grin)

The 'gambler' characterization is actually a *misnomer* because *any* investor can get information, and can certainly find safer refuges, and even payouts, than the *gambler* can, with the *known* odds that the house always wins overall.

If we use the term 'gambler' *loosely*, then it definitely depends on the specific usage / comparison, case-by-case.

His solution which is also the communist solution is to evaporate the risk-taking gamblers so that noone can be perceived of making more or less.

Ingliz *may* be a Stalinist himself, so you can take up that subtopic of *statism* with him, perhaps.

The workers of the world don't *need* statism, or standing bureaucracies, yadda-yadda....

Of course gamblers go bankrupt and register losses a lot more often than people realise but let's just ignore everything that is inconvenient to our fantasies.

They also get government *bailouts*, if we're still speaking metaphorically.

And more importantly, this is not how you structure an economy. People should be free to pursue their own ends and assume the responsibilities for their own actions and choices.

Okay, but snapping-back to the here-and-now, what are we supposed to do when / now that demand exceeds supply -- ? Everything's 'out-of-sync', right -- ?

Life is bleak in a totalitarian state controlling your life in the name of sameness.

Okay, c'mon, you're going to have to *tighten up* here -- the fictional '1984' portrayal is nearly a *cliche* now.

Care to be any more *specific* in your nightly nightmares -- ?

[ingliz]

around 30% of GDP

No

UK tax revenue as a % of GDP was reported at 26.5 % in Jun 2022.

The UK's tax to gdp ratio is currently at 36.9% the highest for 7 decades

No and Yes.

But it's only a difference of 1%.

UK tax revenue as a % of GDP was averaging 25.6 % from Mar 1955 to Jun 2022.

[Tainari88]

You did offend me by trying to paint me as some kind of capitalist caricature that ought to be dismissed instead of attempting to discuss with me but I honestly appreciate your apology. Thanks and sorry if I came out rude as well.

For the record, I do not believe that you are better than me, but it is a fact that the vast majority of this forum and the internet as a whole is no longer discussing anything other, "my morality is better than yours" regardless of the fact that people genuinely have no clue of what it is they are actually talking about. "I support the poor you support the rich, I am good and you are bad." Discussion over. Right.

I supported Jeremy Corbyn, openly and publicly in here twice but somehow Rishi Sunak is the champion of the poor, a multi-billionaire whose wife is not even a tax resident. But I am the evil "Tory".

I saw this movie before and I am seeing it again.

I enjoy high-quality debate. The best way to get that high quality is content. Not people all agreeing politically or doing what you just said spouting some kind of superficial non-issue-based discussion. Regurgitating talking points.

You get people with content from a wide spectrum of political philosophies. But they got to be informed on their own political points of view, and their own political history and philosophy. They must be good writers. People who can write well, and think their points through. Back it up with links, articles, studies, graphs, videos, and so on. But what you want is original content. Something not pulled out from the internet and cut and pasted with very little individual interpretation of the information being presented.

You get back and forth and contrast. You hope you don't fall into personalism and unproductive discussion. You need a series of things. Original content, original writing, strong views with real facts and backing, deep knowledge of why they believe what they believe politically, and passion and respect. Passion is a very Latino thing Noemon, I get accused of being too emotional in this forum. Why? Because the British style of debate and the American Anglo style is about dispassionate discourse based on facts and figures and points.

My culture never does that Noemon. I had to decide if I wanted to proceed with a more Anglo and dry dispassionate style that felt unnatural to me. Or to ignore that and realize I am who I am and keep it and if it is accepted or not? It is not something I can control.

Now, in a good debate, the best thing is dealing with the truth for that writer. What is true for the poster? Why do they think that is true? And where is the evidence for that view? If you get a bunch of truthful and prepared debaters together with a talent for writing? You got dynamite debate. You get contrast and you get a full, rich spectrum of realities and you hammer it out Noemon. You start doing the charrette stuff. The resolution of conflict. What is a charrette? It comes from a French tradition in art school in Paris. It is adopted in North American English and means this:

char·rette
/SHəˈret/
Cómo se pronuncia
nounNORTH AMERICAN
plural noun: charrettes
a meeting in which all stakeholders in a project attempt to resolve conflicts and map solutions.



And that Noemon is a super great goal for a public forum to become. The many diverse prepared and well informed great content writers coming together and pounding it out until the consensus starts to attack real problems. To pass real solutions. Without violence, distractions, hatreds, and pettiness taking over. Out of the many views....comes the source of pushing forward.

The mistake many make in political discourse is thinking silencing voices and excluding many other political views is the way to resolve all disputes. Dissent has to be mined well, for good parts. And the charrette is the way to do it. That concept was tried in real life. With extremely hostile opposites. The KKK for example versus Campaign Breakthrough, which is about African Americans wanting their agenda....how hard is it to get school integration in Durham, North Carolina with one co chair for a charrette a Black Southern activist and a KKK president? You would think those two are never going to agree on a damn thing? But they did wind up solving some big issues. Hammering it out. Understanding the other side was key. And humanizing each other was key. Working really hard to get past what is unreasonable and being non sellouts on personal politics was essential. The KKK guy would not be bought out with money regarding his racist views. The African American side would not be given money to give up on their principles either. Not for money. If they are both principles political people no matter how diametrically opposed they are to each other? There is room for humanization and success.

It is extraordinary. Humans can do it. But is it easy? Not at all. HARD WORK and difficult. But it does provide solutions without violence. That is very very important.

Your forum has the ability to be tremendously wonderful always. And has in the past. I loved it and still do. It doesn't matter if I write here or not. The diversity you can harness here will find a home.

You be that Greek leader of old. The collective memory of the many. And bringing it all together for the world to see.

Que Viva PoFo! Que VIVA!