[noemon]

When you gift something, you no longer own it.

That is not how either corporations or countries or individuals operate. Nothing is free in this world and nobody expects anything to be free either.

Yes.

I don't believe you but if you truly believe that, you have lost the scales entirely and have allowed yourself to be blown by a wind like a leaf.

[Saeko]

That is not how either corporations or countries or individuals operate. Nothing is free in this world and nobody expects anything to be free either.

Uhh... false? This is why individuals and corporations have contracts and why countries have treaties. If you want something, you put it in writing. Don't have it in writing? Too bad!

I don't believe you.

Why would you not believe that I believe something after I just told you that I believe it?

[noemon]

Uhh... false? This is why individuals and corporations have contracts and why countries have treaties. If you want something, you put it in writing. Don't have it in writing? Too bad!

Like the British and US guarantees for Ukraine that were not even worth the ink they were written on? Or the British guarantees for Hong Kong? or the written British contracts for Cyprus in exchange for Greek participation in both World Wars?

Please yo, you are usually smarter than that.

The best way to tether a country is by gifting it its entire existence and by securing political support through ethnic means which is what Russia secured and which has been true until events turned sour after 2014.

Why would you not believe that I believe something after I just told you that I believe it? :?:

Because you are smarter than that and more interesting than simply talking semantics.

Ukraine is neither the first nor the last curious case of a country.

[Saeko]

Like the British and US guarantees for Ukraine that were not even worth the ink they were written on? Or the British guarantees for Hong Kong? or the written British contracts for Cyprus in exchange for Greek participation in both World Wars?

Illegitimate actions by other countries do not excuse Russia's own.

The best way to tether a country is by gifting it its entire existence and by securing political support through ethnic means which is what Russia secured and which has been true until events turned sour after 2014.

Do you mean to say that Ukraine is or should be a Russian vassal? I'm having a lot of trouble understanding what you've written here.

[noemon]

Illegitimate actions by other countries do not excuse Russia's own.

Strawman, the argument proves that written contracts do not count for anything in contrast to your claims that they do.

Do you mean to say that Ukraine is or should be a Russian vassal? I'm having a lot of trouble understanding what you've written here.

Ukraine is not a Russian vassal no more than Cyprus is a Greek vassal or the Channel islands are British vassals.

It has been de-facto Russia proper both during its foundation, and during its independence. A province, like Belarus. Its nominal "separation" crafted purely for Communist ideology and not for western semantic games.

Dancing around semantics does not change this factual reality.

Ukraine is larger than Germany, France, Spain, Italy and the UK, without ever in history fighting a war for its borders. Bigger than the UK and Italy combined.

[Saeko]

Strawman, the argument proves that written contracts do not count for anything in contrast to your claims that they do.

They do when the question is about the legitimacy of Russia's claims. Anybody can make an illegitimate claim to anything. And this is my point: Russia has no legitimate claim to any part of the territory it has gifted to Ukraine.

Ukraine is not a Russian vassal no more than Cyprus is a Greek vassal or the Channel islands are British vassals.

It has been de-facto Russia proper both during its foundation, and during its independence. A province, like Belarus. Its nominal "separation" crafted purely for Communist ideology and not for western semantic games.

Look up the definition of the word "independence".

Ukraine is larger than Germany, France, Spain, Italy and the UK, without ever in history fighting a war for its borders. Bigger than the UK and Italy combined.

And?

[noemon]

They do when the question is about the legitimacy of Russia's claims. Anybody can make an illegitimate claim to anything. And this is my point: Russia has no legitimate claim to any part of the territory it has gifted to Ukraine.

Correct, your claim that Russia's claims in Ukraine are illegitimate due to the absence of a contract for the land it gifted is incorrect.

Russia's claims in Ukraine are predicated on the right of self-determination for the Russian people in Ukraine, which is both legitimate as well as historically & ethnically sound.

Natos' claims in Ukraine are what is 'illegitimate'.

"independence"

"Independence" indeed and not Independence.

[Saeko]

Correct, your claim that Russia's claims in Ukraine are illegitimate due to the absence of a contract for the land it gifted is incorrect.

No, it isn't. Why the hell would it be?

Russia's claims in Ukraine are predicated on the right of self-determination for the Russian people in Ukraine, which is both legitimate as well as historically & ethnically sound.

How do you know that the Russian people in Ukraine actually want to break off from Ukraine and join Russia? And what about the non-Russians in those regions? Do they, in turn, get to break off from Russia?

"Independence" indeed and not Independence.

Why do you support the right to self-determination for ethnic Russians in Ukraine, but then essentially call Ukraine a fake country?

[noemon]

No, it isn't. Why the hell would it be?

How do you know that the Russian people in Ukraine actually want to break off from Ukraine and join Russia?

How do you know they don't?

Why do you support the right to self-determination for ethnic Russians in Ukraine, but then essentially call Ukraine a fake country?

Because Ukrainians never claimed the right to self-determination. They were ordered into it by Soviet Russia.

[Saeko]

@noemon I modified my post just after you responded to me.

[noemon]

You did not alter it by much.

Just this:

And what about the non-Russians in those regions? Do they, in turn, get to break off from Russia?

Sure.

[Saeko]

How do you know they don't?

If Russia wants to take military action against another country to support a supposed independence claim, then the onus is on them to prove that the people they claim to be fighting for the independence of actually want that support. It is geopolitically and legally untenable to allow any country to make all of those decisions unilaterally.

But, I mean... Ok, you wanted to discuss Realpolitik, so let's stop kidding ourselves. Can you even for a single second seriously believe that Vladimir fucking Putin is doing anything other than outright conquering Ukraine and anything else he can get his hands on?

Because Ukrainians never claimed the right to self-determination. They were ordered into it by Soviet Russia.

They literally held a referendum on this in which 91% of the votes were for independence from the Soviet Union.

Sure

So where does this end, noemon? Does every single podunk village get to claim sovereign independence?

[noemon]

If Russia wants to take military action against another country to support a supposed independence claim, then the onus is on them to prove that the people they claim to be fighting for the independence of actually want that support. It is geopolitically and legally untenable to allow any country to make all of those decisions unilaterally.

Ukraine broke the Minsk accords and started openly trying to gain NATO membership, Russia had notified Ukraine several times that this is cassus belli and an infringement on the rights of Russians. Wars have been started for a lot less and by those claiming to be civilised, so this petty moralisation can only be defined as laughable and ridiculous.

But, I mean... Ok, you wanted to discuss Realpolitik, so let's stop kidding ourselves. Can you even for a single second seriously believe that Vladimir fucking Putin is doing anything other than outright conquering Ukraine and anything else he can get his hands on?

You are the one who disappointingly wanted to turn this into a boring technical conversation, not I.

Russia regardless of Putin has legitimate claims and concerns in Ukraine even more so when its current government is so anti-Russian.

They literally held a referendum on this in which 91% of the votes were for independence from the Soviet Union.

The non-existant Soviet Union, not Russia. It was from Russian provinces that the Ukraine was made, not by non-Russian Soviet areas.

So where does this end, noemon? Does every single podunk village get to claim sovereign independence?

According to NATO, the US and Britain, even Kossovo, an official Serbian province, smaller than the size of an American village should be independent for justice to exist in this world.



And I am not the one treating Ukraine as "fake", but Obama, Biden, the US, UK, France, Germany, Spain, China and even Poland.

If you really want to discuss RealPolitik Saeko, the US has been binging on war-mongering spreading chaos and death in the Balkans, M-E and Eastern Europe and without having any legitimate claims and concerns whatsoever but purely as a show of its might. Do you not think that it is time the US found another pet-project like China for example who is an actual threat rather than directly killing Orthodox Christians in Syria, Lebanon, Balkans and Eastern Europe and siding with all its enemies? Albanian Muslims over Serbs, ISIS over Orthodox Christian Syria, Muslim Turks over republican Kurds, Turks over Greeks in Cyprus, Muslim Bosniaks(supported by the mujahedin) over Serbs, Galicians over Russians, Turks over Armenians and so on and forth?

If one does not know any better, one can easily come to the conclusion that the US has been engaged in a Holy War against the Christian Orthodox for the past 4 decades like a dog with a bone.

The argument that US crimes do not justify Russian ones does not fly when international precedents are created for countries to go to war for a lot less.

[Rancid]

West will control West Ukraine

It would be preferable for that not to be the case (nor for Russia to control "eastern Ukraine").

[Beren]

I wonder what triggered your descent into madness in the past few months.

He's just been pushing too hard for an encyclopedic balance of power in Ukraine.

[noemon]

He's just been pushing too hard for an encyclopedic balance of power in Ukraine.

As have you.

[Beren]

As have you.

Sure, let the Russians win something too and move on.