[Puffer Fish]

In 2016 (before Brexit) the EU accounted for 43% of exports from the UK.
By 2022, that number was only down to 42%.

sources:
Statistics on UK-EU trade (europe-solidarity.eu), Briefing paper, Number 7851, 16 December 2019, Matthew Ward
Statistics on UK-EU trade Research Briefing, Research Briefing International trade Brexit Trade data, 11 May, 2023, Matthew Ward, Dominic Webb

If 43% of the UK's exports were going to the EU before Brexit, and then two years after Brexit, 42% of the UK's exports are still going to the EU, is that really such a terrible blow to the UK?

I know that's sort of cherry-picking statistics, but this is suggestive that most of the UK's economic problems are not due to trade issues specific with the EU.

[FiveofSwords]

"Entire sections of the UK are crumbling. And the media aren't asking why.
There are now areas in this country where life expectancy is actually dropping, and in some areas below the retirement age.

Public services are falling apart, they're systematically dysfunctional, they're crisis-ridden. Our GDP is crumbling, children are growing up shorter, they're dying younger, and we barely hear a thing about why it's happening, or even that it's happening at all in our press.

That is why Byline Times traveled across the UK to find out exactly what's going and bring you the truth about why the UK is falling apart.
I traveled to Blackpool and found out why residents are saying their city is crumbling. They told me the media haven't visited the town in months, and that is a huge failure of our media.
There's a particular reason they aren't talking about this. Right-wing papers don't want you to know the truth about what's happening in this country, and that's because the policies, the government officials, and the situations that have led to this happening are the policies that they pushed on the front pages of their newspaper for decades. Things like Brexit and austerity from the Conservative government are some of the key reasons why the UK and its services are falling apart. And those papers endorse the people and the policies that allowed that to happen. So they don't want you reading the truth ... for a country to function you need an informed population, filled with people who know what is going on."

Byline Times , March 2024
TikTok video - bylinetv


He blames "the Right". But I think his claims would be equally true about the Left -- and I'm particularly referring to the complicated web of effects large scale immigration has had on the British economy.
But this purpose of this thread is not really to focus on the reasons for what's happening -- we can have that debate in another thread. What this thread is about is to look at what is happening, the deterioration of standard of living of the nation.


The United States is currently experiencing a similar phenomena, but the economy of the UK seems to be falling apart and deteriorating at a faster rate.
It does seem like the Covid pandemic had something to do with it, or that was the trigger. But there are probably also deeper structural problems that were going on before then.

Uh...the British empire went from the greatest empire in human history to an irrelevant petty country within a few years after world War 2. It was the most drastic and rapid collapse ever witnessed in human history.

Odd that nobody discusses it or wonder how it happened.

It is especially weird to see an empire collapse right after winning a war. Winning a war is supposed to make a country stronger...

[Potemkin]

Uh...the British empire went from the greatest empire in human history to an irrelevant petty country within a few years after world War 2. It was the most drastic and rapid collapse ever witnessed in human history.

No it wasn’t. Not even close. The collapse of the Assyrian Empire, the Aztec Empire or Nazi Germany were much more rapid and much more catastrophic for the people involved.

Odd that nobody discusses it or wonder how it happened.

They do discuss it, and they did discuss it at the time. Basically, the British Empire was and had always been massively overextended. This weakness was revealed by two world wars, and then the colonies started agitating for independence just as Britain had been weakened and impoverished by said world wars. The Americans - who were ideologically opposed to imperialism, or at least pretended to be - threatened to call in their loans if Britain tried to maintain its Empire by force. So that was that.

It is especially weird to see an empire collapse right after winning a war. Winning a war is supposed to make a country stronger...

Who told you that? Fighting a war weakens a nation, whether it wins or loses. Islam was able to expand spectacularly quickly in its early years precisely because its two most powerful neighbours, the Sassanid and Byzantine Empires, had just fought each other to a standstill in a devastating war. Winning a war only strengthens a nation if it is able to exploit the peace which follows that war. And there’s no guarantee of that.

[FiveofSwords]

No it wasn’t. Not even close. The collapse of the Assyrian Empire, the Aztec Empire or Nazi Germany were much more rapid and much more catastrophic for the people involved.


They do discuss it, and they did discuss it at the time. Basically, the British Empire was and had always been massively overextended. This weakness was revealed by two world wars, and then the colonies started agitating for independence just as Britain had been weakened and impoverished by said world wars. The Americans - who were ideologically opposed to imperialism, or at least pretended to be - threatened to call in their loans if Britain tried to maintain its Empire by force. So that was that.


Who told you that? Fighting a war weakens a nation, whether it wins or loses. Islam was able to expand spectacularly quickly in its early years precisely because its two most powerful neighbours, the Sassanid and Byzantine Empires, had just fought each other to a standstill in a devastating war. Winning a war only strengthens a nation if it is able to exploit the peace which follows that war. And there’s no guarantee of that.

Dude...the British empire was about 10 times bigger than any of the empires you mentioned and within 2 years became smaller. Yes it was the most drastic collapse ever. Thr fact you aren't recognizing that kinda supports my point that nobody speaks of it. Being weakened in war also fails to explain anything considering that all the other countries in ww2..INCLUDING the losers...did not collapse as much as the British empire. Another interesting and relevant fact is that german philosophers were predicting that the British empire would collapse for their poor decision of starting the war...look up the 'bye nye empire' song the werhmact soldiers mocked the British with...

[MadMonk]

Dude...the British empire was about 10 times bigger than any of the empires you mentioned and within 2 years became smaller. Yes it was the most drastic collapse ever. Thr fact you aren't recognizing that kinda supports my point that nobody speaks of it. Being weakened in war also fails to explain anything considering that all the other countries in ww2..INCLUDING the losers...did not collapse as much as the British empire. Another interesting and relevant fact is that german philosophers were predicting that the British empire would collapse for their poor decision of starting the war...look up the 'bye nye empire' song the werhmact soldiers mocked the British with...

Most European Empires contracted as a result of the two world wars. They leaned heavily on their colonial subjects for manpower to liberate the motherland, why would the colonies willingly subjugate themselves after that?

France tried to maintain their empire in Indochina and Algeria but failed miserably. The British understood that the empire could not be maintained, the economy was wrecked and there weren't enough manpower to do it, and willingly abandoned most territories, more or less. I guess places like Kenya were exceptions , as well as strategically placed naval bases around the world.

The final nail is considered to be the Suez crisis of 1956. The nationalization of the Suez canal was a step to far for the declining empires. Their attempted military conquest of Egyptian sovereignty was jointly condemned by the emerging Superpowers. It was the US that forced the UK to back off by threatening to wreck havoc on their economy, actually.

So, I guess we have the Yanks to blame in the end (not necessarily a bad thing this time).

[late]

Uh...the British empire went from the greatest empire in human history to an irrelevant petty country within a few years after world War 2. It was the most drastic and rapid collapse ever witnessed in human history.

Odd that nobody discusses it or wonder how it happened.

It is especially weird to see an empire collapse right after winning a war. Winning a war is supposed to make a country stronger...

The British Empire had it's guts ripped out from WW1. After that, it was a dead man walking.

Empires often become a smoking ruin after they fall. The time spent as an empire seems to have something to do with how long it takes to recover. Look at Italy, you could say it recovered, but it has a long list of problems that hold it back.

Studying empires is a perennial... I read Kennedy's Rise and Fall in the 1980s.

https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Great-Powers/dp/0679720197/ref=asc_df_0679720197/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312111868709&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8266304699506595859&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9002522&hvtargid=pla-487663679207&psc=1&mcid=7a25c7cdfe333c3f9f7b10ec1195f49f&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImsmA3NuqhQMVcy7UAR2FzQwREAQYASABEgKGRPD_BwE

If you look at the economics of empire, they guarantee an end to empire. There are obvious benefits to empire, but there are also costs. The benefits shrink with time, the costs do not.

So, no, it's not weird, it's inevitable.

[FiveofSwords]

Most European Empires contracted as a result of the two world wars. They leaned heavily on their colonial subjects for manpower to liberate the motherland, why would the colonies willingly subjugate themselves after that?

France tried to maintain their empire in Indochina and Algeria but failed miserably. The British understood that the empire could not be maintained, the economy was wrecked and there weren't enough manpower to do it, and willingly abandoned most territories, more or less. I guess places like Kenya were exceptions , as well as strategically placed naval bases around the world.

The final nail is considered to be the Suez crisis of 1956. The nationalization of the Suez canal was a step to far for the declining empires. Their attempted military conquest of Egyptian sovereignty was jointly condemned by the emerging Superpowers. It was the US that forced the UK to back off by threatening to wreck havoc on their economy, actually.

So, I guess we have the Yanks to blame in the end (not necessarily a bad thing this time).

Russia did not contract and they suffered the most casualties.

The usa also punished the uk for not aiding with jews in the Yom Kippur war.

[noemon]

Russia's holdings were contiguous with the rest of her borders making them easier to maintain and to defend.

Britain could not defend Hong Kong, nor could Portugal defend Goa. Russia could and still can defend Crimea.

[FiveofSwords]

Careful what you wish for is something that a lot of people need to understand.

I speculate, that most people just knee jerk their way through life. This is why we get into funny spots like voting for Brexit. More generally, voting against our interests. Then we start to find ways to cover up these mistakes by externalizing the blame.

Immigrants, lack of family values, this, that, and the other.

In short, most people live a life of reaction and not self-reflecting enough to understand why leading a life of knee jerk reaction is a bad idea.

Here we are...

Why are you just assuming that nobody could have had a perfectly good reason for wanting brexit?

[Rancid]

Why are you just assuming that nobody could have had a perfectly good reason for wanting brexit?

I'm sure there are/were plenty of valid reasons for Brexit, and I'm sure the unhappiness was valid. However, it's often not practical to "take the ball home" so to speak. The system sort of, forces you to play whether you like it or not. Choosing not to play, is often worse.

[FiveofSwords]

I'm sure there are/were plenty of valid reasons for Brexit, and I'm sure the unhappiness was valid. However, it's often not practical to "take the ball home" so to speak. The system sort of, forces you to play whether you like it or not. Choosing not to play, is often worse.

The system allowed the referendum in the first place. People voted. What on earth are you talking about not playing? Lol

[Tainari88]

The British Empire had it's guts ripped out from WW1. After that, it was a dead man walking.

Empires often become a smoking ruin after they fall. The time spent as an empire seems to have something to do with how long it takes to recover. Look at Italy, you could say it recovered, but it has a long list of problems that hold it back.

Studying empires is a perennial... I read Kennedy's Rise and Fall in the 1980s.

https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Great-Powers/dp/0679720197/ref=asc_df_0679720197/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312111868709&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8266304699506595859&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9002522&hvtargid=pla-487663679207&psc=1&mcid=7a25c7cdfe333c3f9f7b10ec1195f49f&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImsmA3NuqhQMVcy7UAR2FzQwREAQYASABEgKGRPD_BwE

If you look at the economics of empire, they guarantee an end to empire. There are obvious benefits to empire, but there are also costs. The benefits shrink with time, the costs do not.

So, no, it's not weird, it's inevitable.

Yes the costs never go down. And the benefits shrink over time. When it finally is just a loss loss on the assets vs liabilities column? It is a guaranteed collapse and pullout.

[late]

The system allowed the referendum in the first place. People voted. What on earth are you talking about not playing? Lol

He's talking about the economic damage economists predicted before Brexit happened.

2 points, Russia played a role in this, and that it was even proposed reveals a horrible dysfunction in the British class system..

[FiveofSwords]

He's talking about the economic damage economists predicted before Brexit happened.

2 points, Russia played a role in this, and that it was even proposed reveals a horrible dysfunction in the British class system..

It was well understood, and admitted by politicians, that people voted for brexit because they wanted to halt all the 3rd world immigration into the uk.

Since the vote, the uk has had record high 3rd world immigration.

Clearly the uk did not implement the 'will of the people' and they never intended to. The only mystery is why they allowed the vote in the first place.

Since it was never implemented any associated 'predictions' are irrelevant.

[Tainari88]

The Deterioration of the UK starts with job losses due to the need for UK citizens to go to various nations to get a job.

[Rancid]

The system allowed the referendum in the first place. People voted. What on earth are you talking about not playing? Lol

No shit. What you going on about?

[FiveofSwords]

No shit. What you going on about?

Oh...well I didn't know you were not good with English. Do you see the punctuation mark? Like this? That means I asked a question. You can either answer the question or refuse to answer the question. So far we have established that you admit someone might have had a good reason to vote for brexit and that the referendum was allowed by the government. So I guess I will repeat the question...what do you mean by not playing?

[Rancid]

Oh...well I didn't know you were not good with English. Do you see the punctuation mark? Like this? That means I asked a question. You can either answer the question or refuse to answer the question. So far we have established that you admit someone might have had a good reason to vote for brexit and that the referendum was allowed by the government. So I guess I will repeat the question...what do you mean by not playing?

Whoopsies. Skim read and missed the last part. Yes, I'm terrible at English.

Anyway, "playing" as in playing the global financial capitalist's game. The frustrations of many pro-brexiters was (and still) is real. That is, that corporations (domestic and foreign) as well as the governments that administer the will of corporations doesn't give a shit about workers and the general well being of people.

However, at the same time, choosing Brexit as a solution isn't really going to solve that problem. In fact, it can make things worse, because when nations are not a part of a trade bloc, they have less leverage on trade. I think the UK lost some fishing rights because of Brexit IIRC. Also, when the economy gets difficult globally, other nations and trade blocks will choose to protect themselves. For example, the EU could do things like place tariffs on British exports (i.e. start a trade war), to protect EU industries. The US and China could do the same. In short, Brexit opens up the UK to more financial challenges by having less leverage on the international stage. This will hurt UK workers further.

This is why Japan a few years ago decided to hitch itself to an American trade block. They see this sort of regionilization of the global economy happening. THey understood early that "going it alone" just isn't going to work long term. If you are not a part of a trade bloc, there's a good chance you are going to get hosed in the long term. And thus, the workers of your nation will suffer further.... That is, suffer worse than they already are.

The entire financial system is setup to prioritize profit over human well being. Brexit doesn't address that at all.

[FiveofSwords]

Whoopsies. Skim read and missed the last part. Yes, I'm terrible at English.

Anyway, "playing" as in playing the global financial capitalist's game. The frustrations of many pro-brexiters was (and still) is real. That is, that corporations (domestic and foreign) as well as the governments that administer the will of corporations doesn't give a shit about workers and the general well being of people.

However, at the same time, choosing Brexit as a solution isn't really going to solve that problem. In fact, it can make things worse, because when nations are not a part of a trade bloc, they have less leverage on trade. I think the UK lost some fishing rights because of Brexit IIRC. Also, when the economy gets difficult globally, other nations and trade blocks will choose to protect themselves. For example, the EU could do things like place tariffs on British exports (i.e. start a trade war), to protect EU industries. The US and China could do the same. In short, Brexit opens up the UK to more financial challenges by having less leverage on the international stage. This will hurt UK workers further.

This is why Japan a few years ago decided to hitch itself to an American trade block. They see this sort of regionilization of the global economy happening. THey understood early that "going it alone" just isn't going to work long term. If you are not a part of a trade bloc, there's a good chance you are going to get hosed in the long term. And thus, the workers of your nation will suffer further.... That is, suffer worse than they already are.

The entire financial system is setup to prioritize profit over human well being. Brexit doesn't address that at all.

Lol...but brexit was not about disconnecting from global finance. Because of that, your opinion here just seems totally incoherent...if you are supporting mainstream narratives. This is like saying voting in a referendum against homosexual marriage (like article 8 in california) is the same as voting to be removed from global finance. I mean...you woukd probably be correct but you aren't supposed to say that part out loud...

[Rancid]

Lol...but brexit was not about disconnecting from global finance. Because of that, your opinion here just seems totally incoherent...if you are supporting mainstream narratives. This is like saying voting in a referendum against homosexual marriage (like article 8 in california) is the same as voting to be removed from global finance. I mean...you woukd probably be correct but you aren't supposed to say that part out loud...

It was in part about economics. So not totally incoherent. I'm sure you could argue, incomplete, but not totally incoherent. Anyway, I don't really care enough about this topic. What is done is done with Brexit.

My original point stands, which is most people live lives of knee jerk reactions to things. This is a comment that transcends the topic of Brexit.