[noemon]

Doomhammer.....

Do you seriously expect a reply? To your post?

I sat down and read some posts of yours around the forum in order to acquire some knowledge on my interlocutor and you do seem a pretty reasonable lad.

Do you make out any sense of your post addressed to my points?



Anyway, am not going to spend my time discussing on such a level.

As I told you earlier until you find evidence to disprove the concrete proof I gave on Ancient and "Todays" Macedonia, at least show some courtesy and accept the obvious.

In Greece in case you didnt know, we have a region called Macedonia, accidentally our Macedonia lies on 70% of ancient Macedonian territory, and our Macedonian Greeks(2.5 million incl. the PM) can still understand the Ancient Maceodnian Epigraphies all around Macedonia, NATURALLY.

Theodore, we are concerned as Greeks with the Slav-Macedonians being called ethnically Macedonians because that indeed implied distortion of History, but with them that is the least of our concerns. If you look around, in google, in this forum, everywhere, there are people who embrace the Fyromian Falsified History which is governmentally funded and is inherent on their educational system ever since their "independence" from Yugoslavia in 1991. Their school text books are ridiculous, their youth is fully propagated, their diaspora is on the verge of schizophrenia. And their whole system, talks about Ethnic Macedonian lands which must be liberated obviously referring to Greek Macedonia. We are in EU, now, how many countries in the EU border with other countries that teach their youth that the land next door legitimately belongs to them?

This irredentism, their Historical claims have reached on the ceiling, when their government funded the aforementioned Genetic Research which "proves" that they are the "real Macedonians", and the Greeks are Ethiopians.

The governmentally funded letter to Aristotle by Alexander, one of the greatest hoaxes in Archeological History.

And whats worse, and is truly our concern, and hence my presence in here, is that there are actually people out there that actually believe all these claims.

Even though I know, that monsie DoomHammer does not believe such crap, the man is obviously willing to follow any kind of theory that goes against Greece, and it is evident from his argumentation and also feelings towards the Greek nation.

I can understand people as such, even though i can never justify them, but what i cannot understand is people with no real meat towards the Greeks, to actually fall for all this crap.

Soon enough, the victimization will begin here, since no real argument has been put forward by the opposing side, and i say to all wannabe victims from now. Read the first post.

Regards.

[Istor]

I don't see why you couldn't simply identify yourself as Greek Macedonians or Aegean Macedonians (and refer to your neighbours in the north as Slavic or Vardar Macedonians).

SlavoSkopians don't accept it.

We have no problem with a Macedonian regional name of FYROM being named not Macedonia (or in Bulgaria). But, if a country is named Macedonia then no other people could be called Macedonian and then their language is Macedonian and the word Solun is Macedonian while the word Thessaloniki is not. This is AGAINST REASONING. In fact, if SlavoSkopians knew this they wouldn't be named Macedonian.

Regional identities still being strong in Greece. But we do learn proudly Macedonians' history: campaign and its consequences.

Macedonia's case is not like brademburg but like Bavaria.

[noemon]

Theodore, tribal identification has not survived in greece, today, we are Greeks firstly and then Macedonians, Spartans, Athenians or whatever.

Our regional identity is still strong though, and you do indeed encounter people in Greece "highly" proud of their region.

Anyway, to your proposal, about Slavic-Vardar Macedonia.

The Slavic/Slav Macedonia proposal was rejected by the F.Y.r.o.M. Government.

Republika Makedonija-Skopje in these Slav characters was rejected as well by F.y.r.o.M. Government.

You see they want the whole piece of the pie, and that is simply unacceptable.

They do have their eyes on Thessalonike the Capital of Macedonia and its warm port, and they do not settle for anything less than simple Macedonia, hoping that people in a century or so will have bought all their Historical Revisionism.

After all many people said: Make a lie, make it big, repeat it, and eventually they will believe it.

Especially when the world is filled up with individuals such as Megalomatis, Doomhammer et al., i believe that our frustration on the subject is justified.

[noemon]

Alexander was speaking to the people of the 21st century? Frankly, I don't care about Alexander the Great (and I still think his Greekness is a result of his education), I'm interested in Macedonains today (as I've said so before).You have to convince that those 2.5 million "genuine Macedonians" in Greece really support your view.

Oh i see, on Alexander and the Ancient Macedonians, i offered you enough Historical evidence, referenced which frankly do not allow you NO room to "think". But its ok, i have encountered plenty individuals such as yourself.

Secondly, the population of Greek Macedonia is 2.5 million.

Since the region is called Macedonia, even much prior to Fyroms Macedonia, then evidently these people are indeed Macedonians. Or do you suggest that self-identification works only for the non-Greeks? Do i smell double-standards here?

Just across the border there are approximately 1.2 million people declaring themselves ethnic Macedonians and pure descendants of Alexander the Great, while they are unable to read Ancient Macedonian. On the other hand the 2.5 million people in Greek Macedonia are indeed able to read Ancient Macedonian, NATURALLY.

So, now that i re-wrote it crystal-clearly, would you like to explain to me, why do you support Historical Falsifiers, when we have already showed you a fraction of their propaganda(the banknote-genetic research which was trashed, i can post their text-books as well, their claims on Delchev, Ataturk, and every single leader that was born in the borders of Macedonia?). And at the same time i have supplied to you enough evidence on the issue at hand? But you still choose to look the other way?

Please do give me a reason to your attitude, cause i am really very stupid, and unable to read in between the lines.

Or is it just my idea, that you most certainly do not belong in Greek-related issues? Because your hate towards us, is so evident, that results in such non-sense posts of yours? While most of your posts in this forum are within the sense boundaries?

[Red Star]

And as for modern Macedonians being Bulgars, they share the same language, but at one point in history they developed their own sense of nationality.

Very true. Bulgarians and Macedonians - what makes you either? It is a sense of nationality, and I welcome Macedonians to call themselves Macedonians. The only thing I will ask them is not to pretend they don't understand me when I go to their country, cos they bloody well do.

[NizzaCanuck]

ok, granted I'm ignorant on the subject, and I won't dare try to prove anything. It's really not my fight.

One last question though:

Why do so many Greeks (ie citizens of the country 'Greece' that's on the map today) allow themselves to get so upset about this?

It appears to an ignorant Canuck that this is a one-sided tempest in a teapot about historic symbols.

Are there any physical crimes that are involved in this dispute (ie have there been any massacres or other terrible historical events, similar to Japanese soldiers in China in WWII or Stalin's dealing of Ukraine)?

Please try to make your answers short and concise so that I can try to begin to understand.

[noemon]

NizzaCanuck, your question is very valid, and its logical.

I will tell you briefly the case, and tommorrow i will write more in depth about it.

Greek prose and Poetry has made Alexander and macedonia, the greek heartland. One very famous one is the 16th Century Erotocritos. A huge poem from Vitzenzo Cornaro of Crete.

The Macedonian cultural heritage is very important in the Hellenic/Greek national identity.

Hellenic "Nationalism" a collective ethnic identity was forged during the Persian Wars and more importantly during the battles in thermopylae, Plataia, this process had begun earlier but reached its peak during that time. Alexander completed it.

Alexander besides unifying the Greek city-states he standardized the laguage as well.

The 230 different dialects of the Greek domain all became one after the order of Alexander. The Koine which literally translates to Common. Common language and common dialect Alexander decreed. So as you might realize. This is a highly important link in the Hellenic mindset. We cannot allow History to change just because a million people decided in 1947 after a Communist(Tito) decided to baptize them Macedonians.

Its ridiculous. Their propaganda has reached such limits, that they are people who actually believe it. By believeing that propaganda the same people immediately, automatically deny from the Greeks the people that standardized the Greek midset, and overcame the ugly-regional feelings that the Greeks were always cursed for.

Anyway, that for now, i got to go for sleep, so if you are interested i can expand on to this subject.

[Aristotelian]

Why do so many Greeks (ie citizens of the country 'Greece' that's on the map today) allow themselves to get so upset about this?

Why dont you read the whole thread and you might get your answer. Maybe for starters the fact that they put the main monument of Thessaloniki on their banknotes?

The idea of a "Macedonian" ethnicity is the result of over a century of aggressive, libelous policy against Greeks. First it was the Pan-Slavist Russians and balkan nationalism which saw their own benefit in creating such a conciousness and then the communists thought they would use it and run with it. Not only against Greeks though, the Bulgarians have had to put up with a lot of crap.

Here is Stalin's famous orders to the Bulgarian communist party delegates in Moscow, demanding that they "convince" the people of Blaeovgrad that they were in fact not Bulgarians but ethnic Macedonians:


STALIN TO BULGARIAN DELEGATION (G. Dimitrov, V. Kolarov, T. Kostov) The Kremlin, 7 June 1946:

"Cultural autonomy must be granted to Pirin Macedonia within the framework of Bulgaria. Tito has shown himself more flexible than you - possibly because he lives in a multiethnic state and has had to give equal rights to the various peoples. Autonomy will be the first step towards the unification of Macedonia, but in view of the present situation there should be no hurry on this matter. Otherwise, in the eyes of the Macedonian people the whole mission of achieving Macedonian autonomy will remain with Tito and you will get the criticism. You seem to be afraid of Kimon Georgiev, you have involved yourselves too much with him and do not want to give autonomy to Pirin Macedonia. That a Macedonian consciousness has not yet developed among the population is of no account. No such consciousness existed in Belarus either when we proclaimed it a Soviet Republic. However, later it was shown that Belarusian people did in fact exist."

Recorded by Soviet State press and printed in Otecestven Vestnik (Sofia daily), 19 June 1991.

[Aristotelian]

Post WW2 and Tito - 'Macedonism' finds its fruition



By the end of WW2 and the German retreat, the Communist Partisans, under Marshall Josip Broz Tito, emerged as the most powerful force in Yugoslavia. Under the Yalta Conference Agreement between the Soviets and Western Powers, Yugoslavia (including modern F.Y.R.O.M) was agreed to be left to the CPY (Communist Party of Yugoslavia) and under the Soviets' sphere of influence receiving much financial and military aid from Moscow. Bulgaria also came under the Soviet bloc at this time. At Yalta, Greece however was agreed to remain outside the communist bloc.


Greece and the Greek civil war


Greece thus became the first flashpoint of the cold war. In the early stages after the war, Stalin agressively pursued other tactics of attempting to establish a presence in Greece as well as building up a large presence on both the Greek and Turkish borders in Yugoslavia and Bulgaria. After the Yalta agreement with the British and Americans however, Stalin respected the agreement and the red army did not cross into Greece from Bulgaria as many had anticipated. Because of this the KKE had to rely on Yugoslav aid and guerillas to maintain the strong position they had gained during the occupation and later maintain fight in the civil war which broke out even before the Germans had left. The Democratic army, controlled by the KKE and aided by the increasingly powerful Tito as well as Albanian, Bulgarian communist guerilla allies, all actively took part in some way in the agressive action against Greek Macedonian territory during the civil war. In 1949 the communists were defeated with British and American financial support by Greek government forces. With the defeat of the Greek communists and the closing of the border by Tito, any hope of incorporating Greek Macedonia and the warm water port of Thessaloniki into the newly formed 'Macedonian Peoples Republic' in Vardar died. The CPY continued its claims on Greek Macedonia in the decades following, despite later breaking from Stalin's influence in 1948 and followed a policy of non-allignment which endured in Yugoslavia right up until the 1990s.


Yugoslavia and the Peoples' Republic of Macedonia

In Yugoslavia, it was through the CPY, that 'Macedonism' found its fruition as an ideology; Tito using the previous preparation and policies of those before him to strengthen his own Yugoslavia. This was surely something which annoyed Stalin and played a part in the Stalin-Tito split. After much struggling in the shadows of Balkan politics since its inception, Macedonist ideas were codified and intensified in 1944, as the 'Peoples' republic of macedonia", for Tito's own causes with Greek Macedonia and Salonika as his aims. With the defeat of the communists in the Greek civil war, many Greek communists and Slavs who had fought in SNOF fled the border and defected to Yugoslavia and other avenues were evidently taken to lay claim to Greek Macedonia and Thessaloniki by Yugoslavia, the new Republic comprising only of the Vardar region only. The First Assembly of the ASNOM (Anti-Fascist Assembly of the National Liberation of Macedonia) on August 2 1944 passed the resolution proclaiming the Macedonian state and declaring Macedonian the republic's official language.


------------------------------------------------------------



"During the occupation...a combined effort was made to wrest Macedonia from Greece --- an effort that allegedly continues, although in altered form... The main conspirational activity in Macedonia today appears to be directed from Skopje."

THE NEW YORK TIMES - July 16, 1946


"The possible creation of a Macedonian free state within Greece to amalgamate with Marshal Tito's Federated Macedonia State, with is capital in Skopje...would fulfill the Slavic objectives of re-uniting the...province of Macedonia under Slavic rule, giving access of the sea to Bulgaria and Yugoslavia."

C. L. Sulzberger, THE NEW YORK TIMES - July 26, 1946


"According to most reliable information, a secret meeting was held yesterday at Comi in southern bulgaria...to draw up plans for a general rising in Greek Macedonia, with the ultimate object of incorporating that region with Salonica in an automonous Macedonia under Yugoslav hegemony."

THE NEW YORK TIMES - August 19, 1946

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Tito saw a way of exploiting two goals by adopting 'Macedonism': 1) Being to find an alternative to the generally failed policy of Serbinization of the Bulgarian population of Vardar region since 1913 and 2) Being that, with the defeat of the communists in the Greek civil war and to get around the provisions of the Yalta Conference and establish a presence in Greece and gaining control of the warm water port of Thessaloniki by laying claim to Greek Macedonia.

In WW2's aftermath, Tito and the Commitern quickly adopted the Macedonist ideology and set about constructing a fully fledged "Macedonian" ethnicity in Vardarska as a means of laying claim to Greek Macedonia. He renamed the old Yugoslav/ Serb province of 'Vardarska Banovina', as it had been known since 1913, the 'Socialist Republic of Macedonia' or the 'Peoples' Republic of Macedonia'. This plot to falsify the situation in Macedonia was a "Cloak for agressive intentions against Greece", according to this 1944 U.S State Department document:








1944 U.S State Department document adressing the Partisans intentions for the 'Socialist Republic of Macedonia'







To codify this concept into a political reality Tito:

-Utilised the existing streak of Macedonist seperatism from Bulgarian consciousness in Vardar to construct and codify a fully fledged ethnicity.

-Declared, In March 1945, a puppet "Macedonian" government for the People's Republic of Macedonia which was created as one of republics of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, governed by the Communist Party of Yugoslavia.

-Made the official language of this republic the "Macedonian language" and set up various committees to deal with the codification of the language and alphabet, to purge the language of any Bulgarian traits where applicable. Language was considered the vital component of nurturing Macedonian nationalism by Belgrade. (see: Belgrade's committees for Macedonian language and Alphabet

-On July 19, 1967, a bill for the creation of the "Macedonian Orthodox Church" was submitted to the Serbian Orthodox Church which had been the sole titulary in the region since 1919. The bill, after initially being rejected, was then accepted under stong pressure by the Communist authorities. As a result, it was not recognized as a Church by any other Orthodox Church or by the Vatican.

-In 1969, the "History of the Macedonian nation" was published by Yugoslav state authors. Encountering much international dissaproval, the book gave any reference in the world's archives to Macedonia and to historical figures and historical events connected in any way with Macedonia over the millennia, was manipulated and forcibly given a "ethnic Macedonian (Slavic) identity". Again much effort was directed at purging the heavy Bulgarian inluence in the Slav history of Macedonia. (See: FYROM and Yugoslav historical revisionism

-Set in motion expansionist aspirations, with a policy of referring Greek Macedonia as "Aegean Macedonia" with the warm-water port of Thessaloniki as its capital. Maps were issued of "occupied historical ethnic Macedonia" which limited Greece's northern frontiers to Mount Olympus. As well as this the authorities released school text books exhibiting the idea of "Macedonian territories occupied by Greece". Territory was also claimed to be occupied by Bulgaria and Albania.

-Alleged the existence of a "Macedonian minority" in Greece as a vehicle for this expansionism. In the decades following the Federal Yugoslav Government frequently "asserted" that a Slav minority (indeed a minority of the same nationality as the "Socialist Rep. of Macedonia") existed in Greek Macedonia. (click on the below articles as an example of these claims and how Greek communists who had defected after the Greek civil war were used for that purpose)

First article: Greek Communist Guerillas

Second article: Yugoslavs claim minority in Greek Macedonia

Third article: Allegations of Yugoslav territorial ambitions



---------------------------------------




Palmer and King describe, in 1971, Belgrade's dual policies de-bulgarization and macedonization of the Vardar (FYROM) region:


"The treatment of Macedonian history has the same primary goal as the creation of the Macedonian language- to de-Bulgarize the Macedonians and create a seperate national consciousness."

[COLOR="Blue"][Palmer & King, Yugoslav Communism and the Macedonian Question, 1971, excerpts taken from Chapter 9 "The Encouragement of Macedonian Culture"][/COLOR]








[COLOR="red"]Josip Tito signs the declaration of of the 'Socialist Republic of Macedonia', 1945[/COLOR]





The following is a letter from Lazar Panev Kolishev from Skopje prison requesting a pardon by Bulgarian king Boris for his involvment with the communists. Astonishingly this man was to become Tito's envoy in Vardar and later to become President of the Yugoslav Federal Republic of Macedonia under the name Lazo Kolishevski (-Link to copy of Kolishev's plea in Bulgarian):

TO HIS HIGHNESS
BORIS the III, KING OF BULGARIANS
Sofia

PLEA FOR MERCY
from Lazar Panev Kolishev, prisoner at
the regional prison of Skopje, convicted to death penalty
by the Bitola military field court in the lawsuit 133/941
according to the Law for Defense of the State

YOUR HIGHNESS,

Resignedly and from my heart I beg YOU to replace my death penalty with other kind of punishment. I am son of extremely poor parents; I grew up in the circumstances of awful economical oppression and constant unemployment. Never in my life I’ve been thinking or acting criminally, whatsoever and especially towards the Bulgarian state, which we all – slaves Bulgarians have been waiting with anxiety in our souls since long time: to liberate and reunite us within its mothers embrace.
I have been learned to a heavy work and hard morsel. I’ve been only thinking to work and help my parents, to endure the weights of life. I’ve never felt there is a framed thought or idea in me, I’ve been and still I feel distant from the damned left ideas – that brought so much misfortune to so many young people and their parents, and actually I don’t understand it and I’ve never been under its’ influence. I’m son of Bulgarian parents; I consider and feel myself Bulgarian, despite of the horrible slavery, I’ve preserved the Bulgarian way of life, language and temper. My parents in their patriarcalement are still unaware what happens with me, and if I will be executed, their tragedy will be horrible; it will take away their only consolation and hope in their life – their child! I sincerely beg you to try to probe deeply into my plea and to understand the tragedy – mine and my parents’, when they’ll understand one day, that their last consolation has left them, and in such way! One more time I address my appeal to YOU, and YOUR PARENTAL HEART for YOUR ROYAL MERCY – to replace my death penalty with other kind of punishment, persuading You that one day, when I’ll comeback to the free life thanks to YOUR ROYAL MERCY – I will succeed to embrace the dearest lesson in my life, to be worthy Bulgarian with my work and faithful subject of YOUR HIGHNESS and mother Bulgaria!

Skopje, 7th of December 1941

Truly faithful to YOUR HIGHNESS:
Prisoner at the regional prison Skopje

Ethnic Falsifications



Similarities can be in various other instances with the plethora of socialist republics which were re-divided and sub-divided by the both the Soviet and Yugoslav Federations once communist rule had taken effect there. Tito adopted from the Soviets, policies of re-diving/ sub-dividing these socialist republics and often the manipulation of the ethnic conscience of the populations under their control were widespread.


Further examples of ethnic falsifications for political aims can be seen in other instances, albeit in differing circumstances. Belorussia and 'Pirin Macedonia' in Bulgaria as well are examples of this. Tito divided up Yugoslavia up into a federation of 'socialist peoples' republics regardless of historical and ethnic reality: Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia Hercegovina, Kosovo, Montinegro, Macedonia from 1945. A quote on the nature of the Socialist Republics which made up the Yugoslav Federation:


"Tito had employed this particular strategy for 35 years. He kept Yugoslavia at peace by sub-dividing Serbs and encouraging others' ethnic separatism, then slapping it down whenever it got too far out of hand. Tito's "peace" was nothing more than managed social warfare – precisely what takes place in any democratic political system"

The 'Right' to Remain Silent - by Nebojsa Malic

So in answer to your question, Greece (And the vast majoirty of Greeks support this stance) is not willing legistimise the nationalistic behaviour of FYRMacedonia since its independence but also not to vindicate all the other goings on and falsifications whuch allowed situation come to bear over the past century. Greece has never once broken the interim agreement between FYROMacedonia and Greece, while FYROMacedonia has done so constantly. Its not our fault the name dispute hasnt been solved and it doesnt help when the U.S has a moment of "conscience" and recognises them as Macedonia in 2004.

[noemon]

Also to add to my post addressed to NizzaCanuck before i go:

The Koine language, that Alexander forged, is the same language that we the "citizens of Greece" still use today. And another mind-blowing fact is that the Greek language received a larger change during the transition of Classical Greek to the Koine within a couple of years after Alexander decree, than the changes that have been caused from Alexanders Koine to the present demotic. Unbelievable, he? Yes its true, my friend, so think twice before you call us again "citizens of the country that is called Greece". More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language

See also these 2 documntaries:

One from the History Channel regarding Ancient Macedonians and Greeks, and a political one regarding the current situation with Greece and Fyrom, by one of the most respected Greek journalist Pavlos Tsimas. Highlight of the documentary is the interview of Denko Malevski, Fyrom's first Foreign Minister in 1991.

The Historical one here: http://noemon.blogspot.com/2007/03/anci ... annel.html

And the political one here: http://noemon.blogspot.com/2007/03/prop ... ntury.html

Interesting quote : Denko Malevski:

"You(Greece) forced us(F.Y.R.O.M.) to invent a History...and so we did"

"Alexander the Great and his heritage belonged to the minds of some insignifact groups."

"Greece led us to the hands of the extreme nationalists, and consequently this country claims today that we are the descendants of Alexander and his Macedonians"

How Greece managed to do all that is another subject.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Also before i go i would like to give a present to my Turkish friend Mr DoomHammer.


The FyroM, propaganda machine claims that Ataturk was half Albanian and half ethnic Macedonian in plenty of websites around the web and even some of them around the forums.


Now, i probably know what you are thinking while reading this, that you want to stand on high ground, and that insignificant websites and insignificant people in forums do not really appeal to you. And that as a proud Turk, you do not spend your time with such idiocies.

And good for you, mate if you think like that.

BUT, when the TIME magazine embraces such views, that the founder of Modern turkey was half-Albanian and half-ethnic Macedonian, then i believe that you and all of you Neocons-AntiCons or whatever should really start re-considering your friends regarding such sensitive Issues.

As for proof on the TIME magazine........................... . .......................................................... ............................................................ ............................................................ .......... ................................................. .. ......................................................... ............................................................ http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -2,00.html


Have a good night Lads.

[Doomhammer]

Also before i go i would like to give a present to my Turkish friend Mr DoomHammer.

The FyroM, propaganda machine claims that Ataturk was half Albanian and half ethnic Macedonian in their website here: cached so that it is easier to read: http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:tWZC ... =firefox-a

Now, i probably know what you are thinking while reading this, that you want to stand on high ground, and that insignificant websites do not really appeal to you. And that as a proud Turk, you do not spend your time with such idiocies.

And good for you, mate if you think like that.

I just have to answer this one. Ataturk probably was most probably Albanian/Macedonian/other things. It doesn't matter though. As I said before, I don't believe in homogenious nations.

You are however making several wrong assumptions.

1. You are assuming that I was in this thread trying to sabotage you because I'm an ultranationalist Turk who hates Greeks. (Apparently, you don't realize thet it was your initial attitude towards Megalomatis and others that displeased me and led me to ask a few questions here).

2. You assume that news posted on TIME magazine automatically qualifies something as legitimate proof. (It could be though, but not 100%). Ergo it's not proof (although it could be) and still irrelavant.

Btw, thank you for confirming my suspicions regarding your objectivity and argumentation style.Thank you for posting those sources on Ataturk, it was very relevant to the topic and has offended me deeply.

[noemon]

DoomHammer, you make far too many assumptions.

The reason i posted this article of the Times magazine was not to offend you, i know very well, what Ataturk was.

The reason i posted this was to show you the level of propaganda these people have been through. The same propaganda that you advocate(Genetic research in the first page/prior to our presence here.)
And also to show you what happens when people do not deal with well fashioned lies soon enough. Next thing you know, you wake up and Britanica is changed. Think about it, am sure you know full well what i mean, and where am going at.

ADDED-EDITED: Also to add the Time magazine does not necessarily makes something true, but it most certainly makes something popular, and popularity is what counts on Historical distortion, and essentially on Historical revisionism.

As for the victimization as you said yourself:

Cut the crap mate.

ADDED_EDITED I read somewhere:

"Screw Greece" and you saying "I can hardly resist to concur."

In this thread alone, you said. "I have no love towards the Greeks", and before we come here as you excuse yourself, you had already embraced the trashed Genetic research which depicts the Greeks as Ethiopians/Sub-Saharans.

My argumentation is fully reasoned and backed up with evidence, if you wish to address something that you consider from what i wrote as untrue, you better do it in fashion. I do not deal, with words in the air.

[noemon]

And something ultimately funny:

DoomHammer

You posted something on Alexander who was educated by a Greek person (i.e. Aristotle)

Didnt you know that Aristotle was born in Stageira?

Do you you know where the city of Stageira is located?



MACEDONIA




So, is he maybe an "Ethnic Macedonian" as well? Or is a result of his education as well?



Also i find it funny that you use the Greek name for your location Kallipolis, even spelled correctly. Does it fuel respect to use Greek names as a Turk in a serious forum like this one? And your signature is Greek, this just gets better by the minute.

I hope that soon you will start using the Greek endings for Is tan Bul.....Is tan Polis in the Koine or Neo-Greek.

You probably consider yourself more Greek than the Greeks, cause somewhere else you wrote that the Turks have been mixed with Greeks heavily, while in this thread you wrote that the Greeks were overrun by Slavs. Therefore in your mind, you are more Greek than the Greeks themselves, even though you do not really care about Homogeneity.



The more i look into this forum, the more funny some Anti-Hellenes become to my eyes. LOL.

[Doomhammer]

Also i find it funny that you use the Greek name for your location Kallipolis, even spelled correctly. Does it fuel respect to use Greek names as a Turk in a serious forum like this one? And your signature is Greek, this just gets better by the minute.

You tell me. People know you're Greek (or real Macedonian). Yet, only a few people have cared enough to post in this thread. You should be honored that some of us cared enough to post here.

I refer to the "Kallipolis" because the idea is good and because I like Plato. The Thucydides reference is there because I advocate realist IR theory. It's funny that you would think that I'm uing these to boost my self image. I always thought that people would feel pride when their "enemies" display appreciation to something related to their nation. Instead you have the indecency to say that I'm using it for personal interest.That's the difference between us, I suppose. I don't have an inferiority complex.

I can't help but notice that you have refered to the overall quality of PoFo. If the forum is as serious as you say it is (which it tends to be, usually) then no one think any more or less of me for "tainting" Plato or Thucydides. Even if it did matter, I probably could have done better than Thucydides or Plato.

Didnt you know that Aristotle was born in Stageira?...

Fine. But he was of a wealthy family and it is likely that we was tutored by Greeks. Or he could have been Greek but born there, or he was Macedonian but do to close proximity and apparent cultural similarities (as you say) he considered himself to be Greek. I really don't care at this point.

The more i look into this forum, the more funny some Anti-Hellenes become to my eyes.

I fail to see what's so funny here? I confess to have said that I have no love for Greece, but I don't recall declaring hatred towards Greece. I appreciate philosophers like Plato and Aristotle and historians like Thucydides and Herodotus. Too bad their decendants are mediocre. Face it, virtu* has passed on to other parts of the world.

*virtu in Machiavelli's sense

I hope that soon you will start using the Greek endings for Is tan Bul.....Is tan Polis in the Koine or Neo-Greek

You can call it what you want once Greece retakes it.

You probably consider yourself more Greek than the Greeks, cause somewhere else you wrote that the Turks have been mixed with Greeks heavily, while in this thread you wrote that the Greeks were overrun by Slavs.

Your point being? You (or one of your compatriots) admitted that there are no homogenious societies in the world. Thank the Ottoman Empire for shaking people around in Anatolia and the Balkans.

Therefore in your mind, you are more Greek than the Greeks themselves, even though you do not really care about Homogeneity.

I'm flattered but I'll pass, thanks.

DoomHammer, you make far too many assumptions.

The reason i posted this article of the Times magazine was not to offend you, i know very well, what Ataturk was.

Why would I be offended by that?

The reason i posted this was to show you the level of propaganda these people have been through. The same propaganda that you advocate(Genetic research in the first page/prior to our presence here.)

Again I agree with you on the propaganda issue but I never concured the post/source about Greeks being Ethiopian and all. The whole Greeks (or anyother ethnic group in those areas) mixing with Slavs issue is not propaganda per se becau
most of us agree that homogenious populations do not exist.

Also to add the Time magazine does not necessarily makes something true, but it most certainly makes something popular, and popularity is what counts on Historical distortion, and essentially on Historical revisionism.

In the immortal words of Robert Cox, "ideas are always for someone and for some purpose."

"Screw Greece" and you saying "I can hardly resist to concur."

I generally say those jokingly (I think I may have written pseudo-imperialistic junk elsewhere on Gorkiy Park (please check, I think it's great that you guys gather information on perceived opponents, makes your arguments stronger), generally to offend someone on purpose. Did you see me write those in this thread (or in any on-topic discussion during a pending debate)? ... I didn't think so.

"I have no love towards the Greeks"

And it is illogical to assume that I hate. "Indifference" or "apathy" are more suitable terms.

you had already embraced the trashed Genetic research which depicts the Greeks as Ethiopians/Sub-Saharans.

I didn't embrace it, I recall saying something like "IF" before my statement regarding the evidance (well not evidance, "propaganda-style-claims").

My argumentation is fully reasoned and backed up with evidence

Discuss the objectivity of sources, your own biases and ask yourself whether you have any empathy for the "Slavo-Skojpian" case.

I'll admit to my own bias, I started posting here because I didn't like the attitude of you people and your ad hominum attacks on Megalomatis and others.

I do not deal, with words in the air.

If my writings were "words in the air" and you have technically responded to them, then there is a contradiction in logic (thus you fail at being resonable, something which value according to your above comment).

[noemon]

I do not know whether to honor your post with a reply, because essentially, it is only an apologetic beautified "counter-argument". Air words essentially, but its ok. I always enjoyed discussing with Turks. And hence the honor that you have received from me as well even yesterday. You should actually consider this as a compliment.

Now, let us see:

You tell me. People know you're Greek (or real Macedonian). Yet, only a few people have cared enough to post in this thread. You should be honored that some of us cared enough to post here.

My concern is when people read, to be able to see both perspectives and make their own conclusions, not who posts and who doesn't.

Also you were here, prior to our/my presence here, bashing the Greeks, you do not honor me with your presence, you simply defend your ill-conditioned views, with all the hilariosity and rhetoric, that you can offer in order to hide behind your fingers.

Instead you have the indecency to say that I'm using it for personal interest.That's the difference between us, I suppose. I don't have an inferiority complex.

The fact that you are using a Greek signature, A Greek toponym in Turkey, combined with your views on Greece's and Turkeys ethnology are enough to allow me to assume such "indecent" assumptions and raise legit questions. Is it not? On the contrary, i have not shown that i have an inferiority complex towards any nation as you assume with nothing. In this case your remark that i am "an inferior complexed individual" is simply bad language and nothing more. Did you forget already the first post of this thread, yes the one that you agree with. Would you like to give it another read, and rethink who could be complexed in here?

As i told you, you do not deal with idiots, here, so you might as well drop the rhetoric at some point. IR realism is raw.

So, stand by your ideology to say the least.

The Thucydides reference is there because I advocate realist IR theory

Me too, i was actually banned from Ayn Rand's Objectivism forum, because i was too IR for them.

Anyway, where is your realism in this thread? You consider Macedonia as an alien element to Greece, while you have been offered concrete proof that it is not. As a Turk you should know, that the region that comprised Macedonia in Ottoman times, was the villayet's of Selanik and Monastir. When the Greeks took it back from the Ottomans, not from any Macedonians, they renamed it to Macedonia, 30 years later, Tito baptized the Vardar province of Serbia to Macedonia. We have shown you enough evidence for Ancient Macedonia, its public, its Kings, even its philosophers who yourself admit as being Greek.

We offered you evidence, all referenced about "todays" Macedonia, and you still make up excuses. Since you are a realist, what do you believe that another realist should think about your person? And hence why my argument on you being biased is justified once again as you admit yourself, finally.

Fine. But he was of a wealthy family and it is likely that we was tutored by Greeks. Or he could have been Greek but born there, or he was Macedonian but do to close proximity and apparent cultural similarities (as you say) he considered himself to be Greek. I really don't care at this point.

So, you still consider Macedonia as something separate from Greece? Just a few hours ago, Aristotle was Greek for you. SO Aristotle, Alexander, the insignificant woman who wrote the Pella Katadesmos tablet, and Alexanders army to whom he addressed as Hellenes, even though it was comprised essentially by Macedonians, all of those people were wannabe/brainwashed Greeks? And if so, according to this line of thought why do you assume that these same people are now Slavs, and that only the Slavs of Macedonia are the real Macedonians(after all only they call themselves Macedonians ethnically, hence monopolizing the term for themselves)? And why those "wannabe" Greeks of the Ancient times aren't still "wannabe" Greeks? How do you stand by such an argument? PLEASE DO EXPLAIN Also, i have given you so many evidence, and the simple fact that the Ancient Macedonian dialect is officially recognized as Greek under ISO standards?

How does a realist like yourself reason his assumptions?

Too bad their decendants are mediocre

The first nation to acquire independence from the Mighty Ottomans, and surpass them in living standards within a few years of Independence cannot really be considered "mediocre". Considering our History we stand with pride to our feet.

Look at our role in WW2, a fine example. I see that as a Turk you do not know much about us. You should know that in 1974, we acquired our "official" independence as a "Protectorate" when we abolished the foreign Kingdom a few years earlier through the dictator, and in 1974 we abolished the dictator, and it was then(no office, civil disorder), when you attacked us in Cyprus and you still occupy illegally according to the UN, the Northern part of the Island. Anyway, to make a long story short, we became democratic in 1974, within 7 years we entered the E.C.

Sorry my friend, but as it seems from this thread as well, we are not at all that "mediocre", as you would like us to be.

Again I agree with you on the propaganda issue but I never concured the post/source about Greeks being Ethiopian and all. The whole Greeks (or anyother ethnic group in those areas) mixing with Slavs issue is not propaganda per se becau
most of us agree that homogeneious populations do not exist.

If it was that simple, you wouldn't point out time and time again, that the Slavs overrun Greece, nor would you have embraced the thesis that the Macedonians are different than the Greeks. So spare me the rhetoric.

If my writings were "words in the air" and you have technically responded to them, then there is a contradiction in logic (thus you fail at being resonable, something which value according to your above comment).

Is this the most ridiculous attempt to discredit me argumentation or not?



Since you know the people in here, do you believe that any of them will buy this beautified rhetoric?

I edited the post and responded to some of your points, after i had written: "i do not respond to words in the air", because i was bored here, and had found more reasons to laugh at your argumentation.

Do not flatter yourself so much.

Anyway, since you like the hide and seek game, and i sincerely detest it.

Can you please answer me this simple question..

What do you consider the Ancient Macedonians? Hellenes or not? If not why and how do you reason it?

As about the Neo-macedonians i do not want to push you with far too many questions, but i would appreciate it if you answered the first question first,and then anything about today.

Thank you.

[noemon]

And one more quote just for the fun of it:

There remain of Europe, first, Macedonia and the parts of Thrace that are contiguous to it and extend as far as Byzantium; secondly, Greece; and thirdly, the islands that are close by. Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece, yet now, since I am following the nature and shape of the places geographically, I have decided to classify it apart from the rest of Greece and to join it with that part of Thrace which borders on it and extends as far as the mouth of the Euxine and the Propontis.

Strabo, Geography,book 7,Fragm,9

Dear readers classifying Macedonia as apart from Greece was a fashion even in the old days since Macedonia is separated by the mountains geographically and forms a separate entity geographically. However MACEDONIA IS INDEED A PART OF GREECE, obviously ETHNOGRAPHICALLY

[Doomhammer]

it is only an apologetic beautified "counter-argument". Air words essentially, but its ok.

Then don't respond. You don't need to have the last word.

Also you were here, prior to our/my presence here, bashing the Greeks, you do not honor me with your presence, you simply defend your ill-conditioned views, with all the hilariosity and rhetoric, that you can offer in order to hide behind your fingers.

Bashing Greeks prior to your arrival? I would like a choice of words. If you consider questioning to be bashing that is fine with me. You speak of meaningless adjectives.

i have not shown that i have an inferiority complex towards any nation as you assume with nothing.

I assume this because of your hostility and your betrayel to the topic by attacking forum members.

Did you forget already the first post of this thread, yes the one that you agree with.

Again, the world isn't black and white. I questioned something Istor said, it doesn't necessarilly mean that I accepted what Megalommatis said.

IR realism is raw.

So, stand by your ideology to say the least.

What are your saying?

Me too, i was actually banned from Ayn Rand's Objectivism forum, because i was too IR for them.

That's good. You being a realist that is. What strand of realism do yo subscribe to?

We offered you evidence, all referenced about "todays" Macedonia, and you still make up excuses. Since you are a realist, what do you believe that another realist should think about your person? And hence why my argument on you being biased is justified once again as you admit yourself, finally.

It's precise because I'm a realist that I question all evidence. There is no guarantee that you aren't biased either.

We have shown you enough evidence for Ancient Macedonia, its public, its Kings, even its philosophers who yourself admit as being Greek.

One question then, you use the word "Hellas" to refer to Greece, right? And Macedonians were Hellenic. Are Macedonians happy with "Hellas"? Is it truely representative of Macedonians as well.

(I know the enquiry is redundant seeing as how I asked about public opinion, here I ask if you have any other thoughts)

all of those people were wannabe/brainwashed Greeks?

I understand that Macedonia was Hellenic, but didn't they have a sense of being Hellenic but still different than the Greeks? This is why I brought up those alternative ideas.
I did not imply "indoctrination". I offered it as a possible argument to why Alexander was more interested in Greece than Macedonia.

So, you still consider Macedonia as something separate from Greece?

OK you've answered that in your double-post. Ok so ancient Macedonia was basically Greek. Then why was there that distinction in the first place?

The first nation to acquire independence from the Mighty Ottomans, and surpass them in living standards within a few years of Independence cannot really be considered "mediocre".

No I stand by that claim. Greece was the center of the world more than 2000 yeas ago. Today it is not.

Look at our role in WW2

Invaded and butchered by Italians and Germans?

when you attacked us in Cyprus and you still occupy illegally according to the UN, the Northern part of the Island.

That matter is entirely different. But was in not illegal for Greeks to try to unify the island under Greece? I'm displeased by the fact that Turkey's previous governments made no attempt to solve the issue. I am equally displeased that the Greek side is being disagreeable when Turkey finally starts to look for solutions.

Anyway, to make a long story short, we became democratic in 1974, within 7 years we entered the E.C.

Is this the most ridiculous attempt to discredit me argumentation or not?

But it's true. Fight fire with fire.

Since you know the people in here, do you believe that any of them will buy this beautified rhetoric?

Frankly, I don't care, I'm adressing you right now. If other forum members wish to pass judgement or share any thoughts, they are welcome to do so (obviously).

I edited the post and responded to some of your points, after i had written: "i do not respond to words in the air", because i was bored here, and had found more reasons to laugh at your argumentation.

Likewise. Boredom is a big problem, no?

What do you consider the Ancient Macedonians? Hellenes or not? If not why and how do you reason it?

Explained above. They were Hellenic but weren't they still different/apart (not just geographically)?

[Istor]

First the name Macedonian for SlavoSkopians is fake ethnically and geographically.

Ethnically becaus Macedonians have always been Greeks and geographically because Skope never was in Macedonia. Skopje was capil of Dardania then of Kossovo's vilaet then of Vararskan Banovina. After 1944, Tito called the modern FYROM area as Socialist Federative Republic of Macedonia, in order to give its Bulgarian majority a new identity and raise claims against Greek land.

There are tones of books the last 2000 years written by great people who consider Macedonains as Greeks. The last 3000 anything Macedonian is Greek. Thus names like Alexandros, Philippos, Parmenion, Polysperchon, ...Olympias, Vereniki, Euridiki, ....are Macedonian (and Greek) and toponyms like Thessaloniki, Pella, Aigai, Argos, Aiani, ...are Macedonian (and Greek). It's a distortion of reasoning and history to call those names and toponyms non-Macedonian while calling all those Slavic names and toponyms as Macedonian.

Sorry, we Greeks cannot allow SlavoSkopians monopolizing the name of Macedonia. Just like Germans would not allow any Slavic people be named Bavarian.

[noemon]

I assume this because of your hostility and your betrayel to the topic by attacking forum members.

I did not attack any forum members, only those who share the Propagandistic views. Megalommatis et.al.

You seem to have been changing stance slowly. Slowly enough not to be made clear, that you were wrong.

I have to admit, that you have impressed me as a e-Turk.

Again, the world isn't black and white. I questioned something Istor said, it doesn't necessarilly mean that I accepted what Megalommatis said.

Ok sure, am satisfied by the outcome.

What are your saying?


That's good. You being a realist that is. What strand of realism do yo subscribe to?

We 'll discuss this some other time.

It's precise because I'm a realist that I question all evidence. There is no guarantee that you aren't biased either.

What i am is irrelevant in this particular case.
Because i have not offered an opinion, which the opinion could be biased, i have offered you concrete proof about facts.

One question then, you use the word "Hellas" to refer to Greece, right? And Macedonians were Hellenic. Are Macedonians happy with "Hellas"? Is it truely representative of Macedonians as well.

Look, Macedonia is 70% Hellenic, 20% Bulgarian and 10% FYROM.

We have 2.5 mil., 50.000 and 1.2 mil.

Look at the official stats yourself.

I hink that the majority of "Macedonians" do indeed consider themsleves Hellenes.


Now if you talk about the old days. Alexander speeches before the battles at Issus, are enough to show you that the Macedonians considered themselves as Hellenes as the Athenians or the Spartans.

I understand that Macedonia was Hellenic, but didn't they have a sense of being Hellenic but still different than the Greeks? This is why I brought up those alternative ideas.
I did not imply "indoctrination". I offered it as a possible argument to why Alexander was more interested in Greece than Macedonia.

All cities-kingdoms of Ancient Greece, were more interested in their own region, than the collective identity.

Alexander set to change all that, by imposing the Koine(Common) language and dialect.

Then why was there that distinction in the first place?

Strabo has answered for me already.

Invaded and butchered by Italians and Germans?

See here: http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/view ... 7&start=25

And just a sample:

First Greece taught us that free men can be brave, and that no defeat is meant to last forever. This small nation proved to be worthy of its history.

Albert Camus, French author and philosopher

Historical justice forces me to admit that among all the enemies who stand against us, the Greek soldier above all, fought with the most courage. He surrendered himself only when the continuation of resistance was not possible any longer, and when he had no reason not to... However, he fought so bravely, that even his enemies can not deny their respect for him... Thus, the Greek prisoners of war were released immediately, having in mind the heroic stance of these soldiers.

Adolph Hitler, Reichstag, 4 May 1941
-------------------------------------------------------------

Considering our History, we stand very high with pride. Thank you very much.

Ofc, according to your line of thought, The English are "mediocre" since they were the centre of the world just a century ago.

That matter is entirely different. But was in not illegal for Greeks to try to unify the island under Greece? I'm displeased by the fact that Turkey's previous governments made no attempt to solve the issue. I am equally displeased that the Greek side is being disagreeable when Turkey finally starts to look for solutions.

No my friend it is not at all different. Makarios tried to unite the Island with Greece in 1963, and he failed.

In 1974 that is 11 years after the Enosis plan had already failed, and when the office fell from the Government you invaded Cyprus. The UN has condemned the actions of the Turkish Governement. And hence the current status. PSEUDO-STATE.

So do not start here, as well.

You tell me the story is different and try to correlate the Enosis plan with your invasion, which is highly flawed, and ultimately laughable. The Enosis plan was in 1963, you invaded in 1974.

But it's true. Fight fire with fire.

If that is the best you can do, then please do not question my "mediocrity" in relation with my ancestors.

Explained above. They were Hellenic but weren't they still different/apart (not just geographically)?

You still haven't clarified your stance. What is the "just" and question mark there for?

Are you shy or something?

You do realize that the first sentence cancels the second, and vice-versa.

So, will you answer or not?


Also, you say Greece was the centre of the world for 2 thousands years.

Which is the Greece for you?

Athens and its Ionian Cities in Anatolia?

Sparta and its discipline?

Corinth, Megara, Macedonia?

Magna Greacia, Thessaly, Epirus?

Do you mean the Attic(Ionian) dialect? Of Philosophy?

The Dorian Dialect of Prose and Poetry?

The Aeolian dialect? Of Sappho?

Or the whole Hellenic package of Alexander? That you are still having difficulties in recognizing as Hellenic?

[Doomhammer]

You seem to have been changing stance slowly.

Since there aren't any Slavo-Skojpians providing anything profound, I'll have to concur to what you say (until some presents a reasonable counter argument).

I have to admit, that you have impressed me as a e-Turk.

"e-Turk"? What's that?
Sounds like "i-pod".

Look, Macedonia is 70% Hellenic, 20% Bulgarian and 10% FYROM.

We have 2.5 mil., 50.000 and 1.2 mil.

Look at the official stats yourself.

I hink that the majority of "Macedonians" do indeed consider themsleves Hellenes.

That is fine. So long as they're content.

All cities-kingdoms of Ancient Greece, were more interested in their own region, than the collective identity.

Alexander set to change all that, by imposing the Koine(Common) language and dialect.

That's what I was curious about. When you think of Greek city states there usually were seperate cities and their colonies etc. Macedonia was there but was a bit more aloof from the city states?

The English are "mediocre" since they were the centre of the world just a century ago.

Comparitvely, yes. England still mainmtains some power and prestige but the days of Pax Brittanica are over.

If that is the best you can do, then please do not question my "mediocrity" in relation with my ancestors.

Only the strongest nation in an interntaional system (be this power hard or soft) can boast virtu. Only the countries which accomplish most in any given era have overcome mediocrity.

You still haven't clarified your stance. What is the "just" and question mark there for?

You answered it. I withdraw that question.

Also, you say Greece was the centre of the world for 2 thousands years.

Which is the Greece for you?

Modern Greece (and thus Macedonia too), Sicily, Cyclades, Ionia and those islands, Western Anatolia and some Black Sea ports (there were a few Greek colonies in the Black Sea area, correct?).

And yeah Greece was the center of the world (world, i.e. Europe) but Romans were on the rise and there were other civilizations in the near east (other great civilizations elsewhere notwithstanding).

Or the whole Hellenic package of Alexander? That you are still having difficulties in recognizing as Hellenic?

Nah, I'm good. There were many successor states to Alexander's empire but those were sucked up quickly by others (i.e. Romans). You'll have to pardon me but I don't consider Western India or Mesopotamia as a part of the Greek world.


Finally:

You tell me the story is different and try to correlate the Enosis plan with your invasion, which is highly flawed, and ultimately laughable. The Enosis plan was in 1963, you invaded in 1974.

Why did Turkey invade then? There must have been some sort of displeasure against the Junta. Frankly, I still don't see how it was in Turkey's interest to invade for no reason. Useless slab of land in the Mediterranean with no important natural resources (at least non which I'm aware of).

Meh. Frankly that island is nothing more than a drain on Turkish tax-payers money. I'd rather have this issue solved.

PSEUDO-STATE.

It exists Defacto? Yeah. So what? A state is a state is a state... Since when did states care about legitimacy and justice? I'll quote from Thrasymachus : "Justice is the advantage of the strong."