Simple question for liberals - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Modern liberalism. Civil rights and liberties, State responsibility to the people (welfare).
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#13402773
In case you do not know (which would not surprise me the least bit), we have a fractional reserve banking system in the United States; meaning that only a tiny fraction of the money you deposit is in the vaults, and the rest is being invested. If everyone put their money under a matress, we would not have a functioning economy. Every dollar the government takes from the rich is a dollar that gets spent and not invested.

How can you possibly believe that our nation would benefit in the long run from taxing the rich to put more money in the hands of the government?
By Wolfman
#13402868
In case you didn't know (which wouldn't surprise me the least bit) their is this thing called a 'presupposition' is an assumption you make, and then make a question based off of that assumption. The presupposition in this post is that their are infact liberals in political power who want to keep our banking system, and increase taxes - their aren't.

Since the people who actually do advocate that are Conservatives, you should probably ask this question in the Conservative section.
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By Prosthetic Conscience
#13403027
Jamin2112 wrote:In case you do not know (which would not surprise me the least bit), we have a fractional reserve banking system in the United States; meaning that only a tiny fraction of the money you deposit is in the vaults, and the rest is being invested. If everyone put their money under a matress, we would not have a functioning economy. Every dollar the government takes from the rich is a dollar that gets spent and not invested.

How can you possibly believe that our nation would benefit in the long run from taxing the rich to put more money in the hands of the government?


Several possibilities:

The rich tend to spend money on houses, causing house price inflation, when they outbid each other for 'desirable' properties that are in limited supply (eg they are in a popular area). This is not money that is 'invested' in a capitalistic sense - it does not have the chance of increasing production. It is more akin to gambling on future house prices.
The rich also spend money on scarce items of luxury (eg jewelry, antiques) that have the same problems.
The rich are also likely to spend their money abroad - importing luxury international goods, going abroad for holidays, buying property abroad. This is money lost to the American economy.
The rich tend to spend money on extravagances, that are inherently wasteful. This destroys physical value; for instance, fuel that is used purely for pleasure is wasteful, but fuel that is used to make something, or transport someone to a job, has helped produce something.

If the rich did truly invest all of the greater amount of money they have, in terms of increasing capital in, or lending money to, developing American companies, then this would grow the American economy. But that turns out to be only part of what rich people do with their money. Much is wasted, gambled, or sent abroad (without importing anything productive in return). A government can redistribute wealth so that it gets used more productively for the country's economy - keeping people healthy (spending largely internal to the country, and meaning the workforce is still healthy enough to work), investing in the infrastructure which lowers the cost of production for American companies, increasing the spending ability of people of modest means, who tend to spend money inside the country on simple goods and services, keeping law and order for a stable society, which encourages investment rather than hoarding or sending money out of the country in case of disaster.

There are some wasteful things a government can do too, of course, such as overspending on unnecessary defense projects that are never used.
By TheRedMenace
#13404386
Jamin2112 wrote:Every dollar the government takes from the rich is a dollar that gets spent and not invested.

That's not true, the government invests quite a bit of money. Road construction is an investment, as is education and health care spending; unemployment spending and money spent on job training invests in workers. The government spends money to maintain beaches and infrastructure. Most government spending take the form of investment.
By DanDaMan
#13404544
That's not true, the government invests quite a bit of money. Road construction is an investment, as is education and health care spending; unemployment spending and money spent on job training invests in workers. The government spends money to maintain beaches and infrastructure. Most government spending take the form of investment.
The critical flaw in that is that the government is investing it much like Bernie Madoff did.... he skimmed it all off for himself as does the government.
By PBVBROOK
#13404790
The notion that money spent by the government disappears down the proverbial black hole is, of course, just wrong. It is a view held by a lot of deeply stupid people but there is no truth in it.

By the way. The government is the source of all money.

How can you possibly believe that our nation would benefit in the long run from taxing the rich to put more money in the hands of the government?


This question proves that the person asking it knows very little about economics.
By DanDaMan
#13404992
By the way. The government is the source of all money.
Right up until the day the government fails. Then it becomes precious metals. Like gold and silver.

The notion that money spent by the government disappears down the proverbial black hole is, of course, just wrong. It is a view held by a lot of deeply stupid people but there is no truth in it.
Then why is it that Cuba is a slum and N. Koreans are starving?
Why did the USSR fail?
Do you actually believe the Germans are going to get a return on their money used to bail out Greek Banks?
Will you and I get our money back from the IMF's donation to Greece? No.
User avatar
By Spike Spiegel
#13405182
DanDaMan wrote:Then why is it that Cuba is a slum and N. Koreans are starving?
Why did the USSR fail?


Seriously? This is your argument?
You are comparing communist dictatorship that are under trade embargo and isolation with a role of government in a democratic society. Building kindergartens and schools to educate young people and building essential infrastructure to better peoples lives can hardly be called waste of money.
By DanDaMan
#13405218
DanDaMan wrote:
Then why is it that Cuba is a slum and N. Koreans are starving?
Why did the USSR fail?



Seriously? This is your argument?
You are comparing communist dictatorship that are under trade embargo and isolation with a role of government in a democratic society
Yes. First of all communist dictatorships are oligarchies.
Second of all, Democracies are oligarchic majorities over the minority. The two are identical except for the head of state.
Third, I would argue that communism is not viable if capitalism can destroy it. It must be inherently weak. Natural selection demands you favor capitalism (the winning strategy that hold down communism) over the "intelligent design" and flawed dogma of communism.
By ninurta
#13405558
DanDaMan wrote: Yes. First of all communist dictatorships are oligarchies.

All dictatorships are Oligarchies.

Second of all, Democracies are oligarchic majorities over the minority. The two are identical except for the head of state.

Tyrrany of the majority, not oligarchy.

Third, I would argue that communism is not viable if capitalism can destroy it. It must be inherently weak. Natural selection demands you favor capitalism (the winning strategy that hold down communism) over the "intelligent design" and flawed dogma of communism.

Natural selection? Really?

The first time i heard such a claim from a christian theocrat.
By DanDaMan
#13405600
Natural selection? Really?

The first time i heard such a claim from a christian theocrat.
I like it because it's their own words against them. :lol:
By TheRedMenace
#13405663
DanDaMan wrote:The critical flaw in that is that the government is investing it much like Bernie Madoff did.... he skimmed it all off for himself as does the government.

If government officials skim all the money off for themselves then where do roads and schools come from? Sure, government officials get some of the money in the form of salaries but investment bankers and stockbrokers get much much more.



DanDaMan wrote:Then why is it that Cuba is a slum and N. Koreans are starving?

Cuba is not a slum, you're thinking of Haiti. North Koreans are starving because the whole country is nothing but mountains and swamps and there is very little good farmland.



DanDaMan wrote:Second of all, Democracies are oligarchic majorities over the minority.

What??



DanDaMan wrote:I like it because it's their own words against them. :lol:

Except communists aren't liberals.
By DanDaMan
#13405785
If government officials skim all the money off for themselves then where do roads and schools come from? Sure, government officials get some of the money in the form of salaries but investment bankers and stockbrokers get much much more.
This is true. Greek bankers get billions of dollars skimmed off the backs of the working class. Currently, even the German newspapers are saying that the Germans are "schmucks" and even paying up more at the request of an American president, once again.
That's what "socialism" and Social Justice does... it steals from the working man and redistributes to the rich.
Everything becomes more expensive to us and the rich don't notice a thing.

And if you're in America, not only did you help bail out the Greeks via the IMF... but you bailed out Goldman Sachs, GM, financiers and even Cadillac plan GM union retirements. Do you have such sweet deal going for you? Or will you, like I, be paying for them and get nothing but less money to live on?
By Wolfman
#13405787
That's what "socialism" and Social Justice does... it steals from the working man and redistributes to the rich.


That is the exact opposite of Socialism. THE OPPOSITE!!!!!!!! God, read a fucking book.
By DanDaMan
#13405801
Quote:
That's what "socialism" and Social Justice does... it steals from the working man and redistributes to the rich.
That is the exact opposite of Socialism. THE OPPOSITE!!!! God, read a fucking book.
True, it's the opposite of what's in the books.
But in the real world, where Social Justice and socialism is practiced... it means that big corporations and bankers get saved at our expense.
Even big companies and unions. Now, my hard earned savings for my retirement, will be eaten away at so a GM union man can keep his "Cadillac" retirement plan.
I don't know about you... but I'm not a "special interest" group. All I get to do is lose my savings and my buying power. those GM (Government Motors) guys will still get to retire early and live high on the hog. I will have to work all my life now because of all the bailouts.
That's the reality of socialism... the guy at the bottom pays the highest price.
By PBVBROOK
#13405807
Hey Dandaman. What is social justice?
By Wolfman
#13405816
But in the real world, where Social Justice and socialism is practiced... it means that big corporations and bankers get saved at our expense.


That's crony capitalism, which is the opposite of socialism.

That's the reality of socialism... the guy at the bottom pays the highest price.


THAT'S THE OPPOSITE!!!!!
User avatar
By Prosthetic Conscience
#13406181
PBVBROOK wrote:Hey Dandaman. What is social justice?


It's something his guru Glenn Beck has told him to hate. He hasn't worked out what it is yet, but since Beck said it's evil, then DDM is certain that it's evil too.
User avatar
By SomeRandom
#13406200
DanDaMan wrote:Second of all, Democracies are oligarchic majorities over the minority.

TheRedMenace wrote:What??

He's trying to paraphrase from some retarded Youtube video; I suggest just ignoring his nonsensical ramblings.
By DanDaMan
#13406202
Quote:
But in the real world, where Social Justice and socialism is practiced... it means that big corporations and bankers get saved at our expense.
That's crony capitalism, which is the opposite of socialism.
Well, crony capitalism is a move further to Leftist capitalism.

True capitalists would let others fail and bail out no one.
The moral hazard of socialism is that it lets no one fail.
All you have today is EU and American leaders bailing out others with our money.
Like it or not... socialism breeds that mentality.



Quote:
That's the reality of socialism... the guy at the bottom pays the highest price.
THAT'S THE OPPOSITE!!!
Opposite the socialist IDEAL.
In practice socialism bails out everyone. It lets no one fail.


DanDaMan wrote:
Second of all, Democracies are oligarchic majorities over the minority.

TheRedMenace wrote:
What??

He's trying to paraphrase from some retarded Youtube video; I suggest just ignoring his nonsensical ramblings.
Excellent catch!
Here it is...
[youtube]DioQooFIcgE[/youtube]


====================
Quote:
That's crony capitalism, which is the opposite of socialism.
Let's break that down again...
Everyone is capitalistic because we all work to get and buy stuff.
Socialism is the redistribution of money to buy stuff.
Socialism therefore takes from everyone and distributes it to others.
Ergo the people that are hit hardest are not the rich but the working class.

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